Training in 2 Different Karate Styles Simultaneously

Psilent Knight

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Greetings Friends,

Let me preface my inquiry by asking the mods, if this thread is posted in the wrong forum, to please move this thread to the appropriate sub-forum. Thank You.

Secondly, I have done a thorough search of the forum and I was not able to find any threads or posts addressing specifically what I am inquiring about here.

OKAY...as many of you may know I am a student of Kyokushin Karate as taught and left behind by Sosai Mas Oyama BUT my REAL INTEREST is in a different style of Karate called Ashihara Karate. Well, it seems that I may have an opportunity to actually train in Ashihara Karate via long distance. I have managed to get a hold of the necessary instructional materials (books and DVDs) and have been in touch with an Ashihara Dojo in Canada. The agreement is that I can travel every 3 to 6 months to said Dojo in Canada to be examined and possibly ranked.

But here's the thing; like any Martial Art that is primarily combative I DEFINITELY need a training partner. I CANNOT train this style of Karate on my own without a partner to work with. I have yet to find anyone who is willing to be my training partner. I have two friends who both gave me lip service about training with me but can never seem to find time to communicate with me about meeting up let alone actually training.

Because of this I have cooked up the idea of training the Ashihara style on my own in my spare time while continuing to train at the Kyokushin Dojo that I attend. The reason is because by continuing to train at the dojo I would be guaranteed to have real bodies to train with, do drills with and spar with. And this way I don't have to worry about not being able to find a training partner.

When it comes to successfully training a Martial Art at home via books and videos, it is often believed (among other things) that it can be done as long as one is doing some actual training under a real live instructor. This is essentially what I would be doing if I go ahead and pursue this path.

So far the only real problem I can see is the differences in katas between the two styles. One would think that the heavy emphasis on the sabaki movements in the Ashihara style would also be an issue but I don't think that it will be for two reasons. 1) My Shihan does teach and also has a large appreciation for sabaki and 2) just because one style teaches the sabaki doesn't mean that I HAVE TO do it in the Kyokushin dojo. The sparring rules are essentially the same so that isn't a problem at all.

Now, am I looking at this the right way or are there other nuances or issues that I missed and should be concerned about?

Btw, the reason that I will only be able to go to Canada for grading every 6 months or so is because I will not have the time or capabilities to give equal attention and training to both styles. So I can only go to Canada for grading when I am truly ready which will be long in between visits. So unfortunately the Kyokushin will have to be my primary style and the Ashihara my secondary, spare time style (for now anyways). Of course this will dramatically prolong the time it will take for me to reach BB in Ashihara Karate. What will normally take someone 4-6 years to attain BB in the dojo will probably take me MINIMUM 8 years to attain in a long distance situation.

If I continue on this path I will more than likely be promoted to BB in Kyokushin long before attaining a BB in Ashihara. But once I do get BB in Kyokushin I have a plan to accelerate my training in the Ashihara way and then once I get BB in Ashihara it is my plan to discontinue training in Kyokushin altogether and devote my full time and attention to Ashihara. As an Ashihara BB I predict that I should have an easier time to find training partners to continue my Ashihara journey.

Thanks for reading friends and Take Care,
OSU!
 

kuniggety

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What's your "goal"? If it's to learn both styles and have fun doing it, then don't worry about how long it takes to get your black belts. They're just pieces of cloth that hold your jacket closed. Enjoy the journey.
 

Touch Of Death

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What is the difference between the styles? If the moves are the same, I don't see a problem, but teachers know when you are doing something they didn't teach you. This will be an issue.
 

Flying Crane

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I don't see a real point in doing it, and would not recommend it. Go with the best instruction you can get, and that means a real school and face-to-face.

But then, people will do what they want.
 

Buka

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Greetings Friends,

Let me preface my inquiry by asking the mods, if this thread is posted in the wrong forum, to please move this thread to the appropriate sub-forum. Thank You.

Secondly, I have done a thorough search of the forum and I was not able to find any threads or posts addressing specifically what I am inquiring about here.

OKAY...as many of you may know I am a student of Kyokushin Karate as taught and left behind by Sosai Mas Oyama BUT my REAL INTEREST is in a different style of Karate called Ashihara Karate. Well, it seems that I may have an opportunity to actually train in Ashihara Karate via long distance. I have managed to get a hold of the necessary instructional materials (books and DVDs) and have been in touch with an Ashihara Dojo in Canada. The agreement is that I can travel every 3 to 6 months to said Dojo in Canada to be examined and possibly ranked.

But here's the thing; like any Martial Art that is primarily combative I DEFINITELY need a training partner. I CANNOT train this style of Karate on my own without a partner to work with. I have yet to find anyone who is willing to be my training partner. I have two friends who both gave me lip service about training with me but can never seem to find time to communicate with me about meeting up let alone actually training.

Because of this I have cooked up the idea of training the Ashihara style on my own in my spare time while continuing to train at the Kyokushin Dojo that I attend. The reason is because by continuing to train at the dojo I would be guaranteed to have real bodies to train with, do drills with and spar with. And this way I don't have to worry about not being able to find a training partner.

When it comes to successfully training a Martial Art at home via books and videos, it is often believed (among other things) that it can be done as long as one is doing some actual training under a real live instructor. This is essentially what I would be doing if I go ahead and pursue this path.

So far the only real problem I can see is the differences in katas between the two styles. One would think that the heavy emphasis on the sabaki movements in the Ashihara style would also be an issue but I don't think that it will be for two reasons. 1) My Shihan does teach and also has a large appreciation for sabaki and 2) just because one style teaches the sabaki doesn't mean that I HAVE TO do it in the Kyokushin dojo. The sparring rules are essentially the same so that isn't a problem at all.

Now, am I looking at this the right way or are there other nuances or issues that I missed and should be concerned about?

Btw, the reason that I will only be able to go to Canada for grading every 6 months or so is because I will not have the time or capabilities to give equal attention and training to both styles. So I can only go to Canada for grading when I am truly ready which will be long in between visits. So unfortunately the Kyokushin will have to be my primary style and the Ashihara my secondary, spare time style (for now anyways). Of course this will dramatically prolong the time it will take for me to reach BB in Ashihara Karate. What will normally take someone 4-6 years to attain BB in the dojo will probably take me MINIMUM 8 years to attain in a long distance situation.

If I continue on this path I will more than likely be promoted to BB in Kyokushin long before attaining a BB in Ashihara. But once I do get BB in Kyokushin I have a plan to accelerate my training in the Ashihara way and then once I get BB in Ashihara it is my plan to discontinue training in Kyokushin altogether and devote my full time and attention to Ashihara. As an Ashihara BB I predict that I should have an easier time to find training partners to continue my Ashihara journey.

Thanks for reading friends and Take Care,
OSU!

Two troubling lines......

"BUT my REAL INTEREST is in a different style of Karate called Ashihara Karate"

"So unfortunately the Kyokushin will have to be my primary style"


Your heart isn't in it, not one little bit. Bro, you should get out of it. Like right now.
Don't waste your instructors time.
 
OP
Psilent Knight

Psilent Knight

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What's your "goal"? If it's to learn both styles and have fun doing it, then don't worry about how long it takes to get your black belts. They're just pieces of cloth that hold your jacket closed. Enjoy the journey.

Kuniggety, you said the key words in your post (which I have placed in large bold font) concerning what my actual goals are. FIRST and FOREMOST is the journey of simply learning for the pure enjoyment of it and HAVE FUN while doing so. Since I am not training to compete nor do I have any intentions whatsoever of ever becoming a Martial Arts instructor I now realize even more that this shouldn't be a big deal at all as long as I am able to keep up with the tasks I have laid out for myself. Thank You Very Much for your thoughtful input.

What is the difference between the styles?

Mainly that the Ashihara style places a much, much heavier emphasis on footwork and blindspot positioning than Kyokushin. The Kyokushin dojo I am at (and based on my experiences most Kyokushin dojos in general) teaches and practices these things just not as much or as seriously as Ashihara does. And although Kyokushin in general is mainly known for chest-to-chest, straightforward, offensive oriented and aggressive style of sparring, one's individual fighting style also comes into play which leaves plenty of room for me to use sabaki movements when sparring. I know for a fact that this will not be an issue at all since I have already sparred this way in my dojo (using plenty of sabaki movements).

If the moves are the same, I don't see a problem, but teachers know when you are doing something they didn't teach you. This will be an issue.

Yes, the moves are essentially the same except for the katas and I don't think that will be an issue either. And as noted above I do not see my using sabaki movements and other strategies from Ashihara Karate being an issue since they are movements that are allowed to be used during sparring if one is able to pull them off (which I actually have done successfully while sparring at the dojo). And besides that my Shihan is already aware that I like to make use of related books and videos to make my dojo training better and he has no problems with that.

Thank You for your feedback.

Take Care Friends and Have A Good Day,
Osu!
 
OP
Psilent Knight

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@Buka , Thank You for your feedback. As noted I do like Ashihara Karate better than Kyokushin but my heart is definitely in it when training at the dojo because I am having fun, I enjoy learning, I am getting good exercise and I feel privileged to be able to train an actual full contact Karate style. Now if it was a non contact style (point fighting oriented) then you would be correct because my heart would not be in it AT ALL and I would be wasting mine and the instructor's time.

Thank You for your input, it is much appreciated.

Take Care,
Osu!
 

Buka

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@Buka , Thank You for your feedback. As noted I do like Ashihara Karate better than Kyokushin but my heart is definitely in it when training at the dojo because I am having fun, I enjoy learning, I am getting good exercise and I feel privileged to be able to train an actual full contact Karate style. Now if it was a non contact style (point fighting oriented) then you would be correct because my heart would not be in it AT ALL and I would be wasting mine and the instructor's time.

Thank You for your input, it is much appreciated.

Take Care,
Osu!

I wish you well going forward. I hope it all works out.

Man, I so love Kyokushin Karate.
 
OP
Psilent Knight

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I wish you well going forward. I hope it all works out.

Man, I so love Kyokushin Karate.

Thanks Buka. Something I forgot to mention is that since I am able to apply a lot of what I have learned so far from the Ashihara style at the Kyokushin dojo that actually keeps me very motivated and gives me plenty to look forward to each class. The ONLY THING that we are not allowed to do when we spar is to grab the Dogi which is something the Ashihara style really likes to do. But I just make up for that with a heavier focus on footwork and parrying.

I remember one time I was sparring a classmate of mine and I kept getting into his blindspot by using gedan barai to parry his front kicks and spin him around. I kept doing it to him over and over and he kept falling for it. Shihan told him that I am going to keep doing that to him until he figures out what exactly I am doing and how I am doing it. He also told ME that when I get the blindspot position on him like that that I need to move in on him and take maximum advantage of that opportunity and quit letting him off the hook. Otherwise he'll never learn. :D

Thanks again for your input and your words of encouragement.

Take Care and Have A Great Day,
OSU!
 
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Greetings Friends,

Let me preface my inquiry by asking the mods, if this thread is posted in the wrong forum, to please move this thread to the appropriate sub-forum. Thank You.

Secondly, I have done a thorough search of the forum and I was not able to find any threads or posts addressing specifically what I am inquiring about here.

OKAY...as many of you may know I am a student of Kyokushin Karate as taught and left behind by Sosai Mas Oyama BUT my REAL INTEREST is in a different style of Karate called Ashihara Karate. Well, it seems that I may have an opportunity to actually train in Ashihara Karate via long distance. I have managed to get a hold of the necessary instructional materials (books and DVDs) and have been in touch with an Ashihara Dojo in Canada. The agreement is that I can travel every 3 to 6 months to said Dojo in Canada to be examined and possibly ranked.

But here's the thing; like any Martial Art that is primarily combative I DEFINITELY need a training partner. I CANNOT train this style of Karate on my own without a partner to work with. I have yet to find anyone who is willing to be my training partner. I have two friends who both gave me lip service about training with me but can never seem to find time to communicate with me about meeting up let alone actually training.

Because of this I have cooked up the idea of training the Ashihara style on my own in my spare time while continuing to train at the Kyokushin Dojo that I attend. The reason is because by continuing to train at the dojo I would be guaranteed to have real bodies to train with, do drills with and spar with. And this way I don't have to worry about not being able to find a training partner.

When it comes to successfully training a Martial Art at home via books and videos, it is often believed (among other things) that it can be done as long as one is doing some actual training under a real live instructor. This is essentially what I would be doing if I go ahead and pursue this path.

So far the only real problem I can see is the differences in katas between the two styles. One would think that the heavy emphasis on the sabaki movements in the Ashihara style would also be an issue but I don't think that it will be for two reasons. 1) My Shihan does teach and also has a large appreciation for sabaki and 2) just because one style teaches the sabaki doesn't mean that I HAVE TO do it in the Kyokushin dojo. The sparring rules are essentially the same so that isn't a problem at all.

Now, am I looking at this the right way or are there other nuances or issues that I missed and should be concerned about?

Btw, the reason that I will only be able to go to Canada for grading every 6 months or so is because I will not have the time or capabilities to give equal attention and training to both styles. So I can only go to Canada for grading when I am truly ready which will be long in between visits. So unfortunately the Kyokushin will have to be my primary style and the Ashihara my secondary, spare time style (for now anyways). Of course this will dramatically prolong the time it will take for me to reach BB in Ashihara Karate. What will normally take someone 4-6 years to attain BB in the dojo will probably take me MINIMUM 8 years to attain in a long distance situation.

If I continue on this path I will more than likely be promoted to BB in Kyokushin long before attaining a BB in Ashihara. But once I do get BB in Kyokushin I have a plan to accelerate my training in the Ashihara way and then once I get BB in Ashihara it is my plan to discontinue training in Kyokushin altogether and devote my full time and attention to Ashihara. As an Ashihara BB I predict that I should have an easier time to find training partners to continue my Ashihara journey.

Thanks for reading friends and Take Care,
OSU!
 
OP
Psilent Knight

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If I was your sensei, I would like to be asked about this first.

I don't know why that is but from my pov I feel that as long as I am paying the Shihan at my dojo that I am fulfilling my end of our teacher-student agreement. Without sounding arrogant or self entitled I must say that I do not feel as though I necessarily need my teachers "okay" or "permission" or "consent" to do this. Now, if he were teaching me without being paid for it then that's a different story. I think I would be obligated to ask him about this in that situation.

Thank You for your input and Have a good evening,
Osu!
 

Flying Crane

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I don't know why that is but from my pov I feel that as long as I am paying the Shihan at my dojo that I am fulfilling my end of our teacher-student agreement. Without sounding arrogant or self entitled I must say that I do not feel as though I necessarily need my teachers "okay" or "permission" or "consent" to do this. Now, if he were teaching me without being paid for it then that's a different story. I think I would be obligated to ask him about this in that situation.

Thank You for your input and Have a good evening,
Osu!
Well, it is possible that he might disagree with you. If he discovers that you are doing this, and did not inform him first, he might decide you don't really want to study kyokushin, given that you are getting distracted by other things, and you would be better off heading on your way. What you say in this thread would support that notion.

He might not, but he might. Depends on how he sees it all. Might be best to clear the air first, rather than have an unpleasant surprise.

Sure you pay him for instruction. But he is free to not accept your payment, and not teach you.
 

Bill Mattocks

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I don't know why that is but from my pov I feel that as long as I am paying the Shihan at my dojo that I am fulfilling my end of our teacher-student agreement. Without sounding arrogant or self entitled I must say that I do not feel as though I necessarily need my teachers "okay" or "permission" or "consent" to do this. Now, if he were teaching me without being paid for it then that's a different story. I think I would be obligated to ask him about this in that situation.

Thank You for your input and Have a good evening,
Osu!

You will receive your reward.
 

JR 137

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From what I know of Ashihara, it's basically Kyokushin with a tweaked strategy/philosophy. Kyokushin is very linear, whereas Ashihara is circular. The various techniques (punches, kicks, etc.) are all the same, it's just a matter of where you're throwing them from and when.

Kyokushin has traditional kata, whereas Ashihara has "fighting" kata (as I've heard it referred to).

I'm wondering what the differences are between Ashihara and Enshin. Joko Ninomiya (Enshin's founder) was Ashihara's most famous student, dating back to their Kyokushin days.

Does Ashihara incorporate Enshin's (Judo) throws?

I'd love to study Enshin. No one near me teaches it though. Probably just like the OP, just because you'd like to study a different flavor of what you're currently studying doesn't mean you should stop your current training. I really enjoy Seido Juku. If there was an Enshin school around when I was looking to restart, I'd have visited both quite a few times before committing to one. If one were to pop up down the road, I'd visit it after it was well established.
 
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OP
Psilent Knight

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If I had at least one dedicated training partner who was willing to train hard and take it seriously I would just train the Ashihara way with him. But I don't have that and you cannot train that style strictly solo. It's not like I'm deliberately looking to commit "Karate Infidelity". This is the situation I'm in and I am trying to make the best of it.

I do not want to forget that this was done quite often in the land in which Karate was born. And it was not a big deal nor something to be frowned upon. But then again, this is also before the commercialization and politicizing of Karate. It's only post commercialization did we get the large organizations, the various belt levels, not so nice egos and politics. I am not interested in politics, feeding anyone's ego or chasing any commercial enterprise. I simply want to train and improve myself. That is all.

OSU!
 
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OP
Psilent Knight

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From what I know of Ashihara, it's basically Kyokushin with a tweaked strategy/philosophy. Kyokushin is very linear, whereas Ashihara is circular. The various techniques (punches, kicks, etc.) are all the same, it's just a matter of where you're throwing them from and when.

In a nutshell, yes. As far as where the techniques are being thrown from the Ashihara stylist seeks to do so from the blindspot position and off the centerline of attack.

Kyokushin has traditional kata, whereas Ashihara has "fighting" kata (as I've heard it referred to).

Correct again and as I've noted earlier this will be really the biggest difference between the two styles that may take quite a bit of time to adjust to. Maybe, maybe not.

I'm wondering what the differences are between Ashihara and Enshin. Joko Ninomiya (Enshin's founder) was Ashihara's most famous student, dating back to their Kyokushin days.

Does Ashihara incorporate Enshin's (Judo) throws?

The three differences that I have been able to ascertain (which are negligible in my opinion) are that 1) Enshin takes the concept of circular movements a little further than the Ashihara style and relies a little more on grabbing the gi/clothing than Ashihara to facilitate this, 2) Kancho Ninomiya designed his own "fighting kata" for Enshin Karate and 3) Enshin has incorporated modified Judo throws (which I think are awesome!) Joko Ninomiya is also a BB in Judo. And to answer your question, Ashihara Karate as a system does not incorporate Enshin Karate's Judo throws but I see nothing wrong with an Ashihara Karateka incorporating Judo throws in his or her personal toolbox. In fact, I personally encourage it.

I'd love to study Enshin. No one near me teaches it though. Probably just like the OP, just because you'd like to study a different flavor of what you're currently studying doesn't mean you should stop your current training. I really enjoy Seido Juku. If there was an Enshin school around when I was looking to restart, I'd have visited both quite a few times before committing to one. If one were to pop up down the road, I'd visit it after it was well established.

Do you train Seido Juku at the Hombu Dojo? If so, I am assuming that you are in the New York City area.

Take Care and Have A Good Night,
Osu!
 

Flying Crane

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If I had at least one dedicated training partner who was willing to train hard and take it seriously I would just train the Ashihara way with him. But I don't have that and you cannot train that style strictly solo. It's not like I'm deliberately looking to commit "Karate Infidelity". This is the situation I'm in and I am trying to make the best of it.

I do not want to forget that this was done quite often in the land in which Karate was born. And it was not a big deal nor something to be frowned upon. But then again, this is also before the commercialization and politicizing of Karate. It's only post commercialization did we get the large organizations, the various belt levels, not so nice egos and politics. I am not interested in politics, feeding anyone's ego or chasing any commercial enterprise. I simply want to train and improve myself. That is all.

OSU!
It depends on how your sensei views it. Fair or not, he will have an opinion one way or the other, and then he will have the final say in it.
 
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After you are competent in any art you could learn another in a few days. Search for the meaning of the martial art. The war between heaven and earth what is the way, the moon shows the difference between right and wrong. Are you an all seeing mind like the moon! Does the sun and moon salute your organs? Do world become from your orbit. Why not ask for enlightenment from those who went before? they promised to teach you? you paid for it! Now you get it. Lots of people need to make a commitment you it seems have take flowers and a bottle of cheap scotch and tell your teacher you need more than an *** kicking and see what happens
 
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Dylan9d

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After you are competent in any art you could learn another in a few days. Search for the meaning of the martial art. The war between heaven and earth what is the way, the moon shows the difference between right and wrong. Are you an all seeing mind like the moon! Does the sun and moon salute your organs? Do world become from your orbit. Why not ask for enlightenment from those who went before? they promised to teach you? you paid for it! Now you get it. Lots of people need to make a commitment you it seems have take flowers and a bottle of cheap scotch and tell your teacher you need more than an *** kicking and see what happens

This is the funniest thing anyone ever said......

"Grandmaster" :D
 
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