Joint locks

[fringe_dweller]

For those of you who study an art which includes joint locks how do you practice them in real time? I have just recently started sparring with one of our higher level belts before class in order to identify weaknesses in my technique and learn what I need to work more on (apart from everything). I'm worried about applying joint locks in this scenario as I don't want to do any damage by taking the technique too far before I realise it.
Do you recommend just practicing them in a static situation and only work on strikes and kicks during sparring? Any help is much appreciated.

Respectfully

 

[Kirk]

We do the hubud drill, and try to apply arm/wrist locks, etc. It's
not a real time thing, but it's a pretty good drill for real time.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Start out going slow, then increase the speed of the attack/defense. No one is in class to harm each other. As long as there's mutual respect between the practitioners speed up the pace as you go along. I would not recommend going fast and hard at the beginning that will do no one any good. Your chance of injury then goes up. Pick out a specific sequence of moves you would like to to that way there's no surprise to either party. Hope this helps.

 

[bdparsons]

There are certain parameters that need to be in place for real-time (read: fast!) joint manipulation practice:

1. Complete trust in your training partner and his/her abilities including; their ability to fall/move with any given technique, their knowledge of any given technique and the effect it will have on their joints, their willingness to be honest about your execution of a given technique (nothing is worse than a training partner who falls just for the sake of falling... if a technique is not being done properly speak up!)

2. Confidence in your own knowledge of the techniques. Granted this will only come with repeated practice at slower speeds, ramping up to faster and faster execution speeds.

3. Be committed in your technique execution. Nothing will set you and your training partner up for injuries more than half-hearted execution of your technique.

Respects,
Bill Parsons

 

[Kempojujutsu]

If you are teaching beginners this is the last thing you want them to try on each other. They should be learning how to properly apply the lock. When doing a joint lock for real (street Situation) I am trying to break, rip or tear, the joint, tendon, legament. The more experience you have, the faster or closer to real time you can go. I can actually feel my attacker's joint when applying a lock. Can tell how far I can go, this comes with experience, and is aquired from doing drills like Kirk mentioned.
Bob :asian:

 

[fringe_dweller]

Originally posted by Kirk

We do the hubud drill, and try to apply arm/wrist locks, etc. It's
not a real time thing, but it's a pretty good drill for real time.

Hubud? Don't recognise the terminology but I'll ask my Instructor about it.

Kempojujutsu, I'm looking to practice this myself, not teach others. I'm only 6th Kup who's looking for an effective way to practice these techniques.

Probably helpful to mention I train in Hapkido

Respectfully

 

[Angus]

Hubud is a sensitivity/flow drill from the Filipino Arts, usually done with sticks/escrimas.

 

[7starmantis]

We mostly use sticky hands to train in strikes, kicks, and joint locks/manipulations. Like most, it starts very very slow, then you can speed up as your skill increases.
Best advice yet: Start Very Slow!! Learn the technique, then speed up a bit.


7sm

 

[ace]

><><><

 

[Mon Mon]

When applying a Joint lock tell the person to tap when its too much then go ahead and do it and wait till they tap out.

 

[Abbax8]

To practice joint locks in real time, first get a good partner and both be on the same page. Second, you set the lock in real time, but don't apply it. Example- for an elbow lock like waki gatame, I will grasp the wrist or forearm, pull the arm in front of me at full speed and place my other hand on the elbow to be locked at full speed. But I DO NOT bend the joint past normal range of motion at full speed. There is no need. If I have properly locked the arm AND off balanced my uke, I can take my time in applying the lock. This is real training that will transfer to the streets directly.

Peace
Dennis

 

[Lawman9]

Originally posted by Mon Mon
When applying a Joint lock tell the person to tap when its too much then go ahead and do it and wait till they tap out.

That's a good one. We also work in slow motion at first to completely learn each lock. We work on taking the lock from no pain up to the highest pain without breaking. That is the type of control you need in a fight so that is how we work on it. My teacher wouldn't allow me to tap out....lol...learned alot from it though.

 

[Zujitsuka]

I wouldn't suggest practicing joint manipulations on small joints at combat speed. I am particularly talking about locks to the wrists and fingers. A high speed (small circle) kote gaeshi or sankajo very well may hyperextend a joint and put someone out of commission. Also, stay away from neck manipulations for obvious reasons.

If you're going to practice applying locks in real time, stick to the locks to the elbow and shoulder - like those used in Judo's randori practice.

Peace & blessings,

 

[AIKIKENJITSU]

For those of you who study an art which includes joint locks how do you practice them in real time? I have just recently started sparring with one of our higher level belts before class in order to identify weaknesses in my technique and learn what I need to work more on (apart from everything). I'm worried about applying joint locks in this scenario as I don't want to do any damage by taking the technique too far before I realise it.
Do you recommend just practicing them in a static situation and only work on strikes and kicks during sparring? Any help is much appreciated.

Respectfully

I have been teaching my version of American Kenpo for fifty years and over the years I have put back joint locks into Kenpo. It takes practice to use a joint lock on a partner and not hurt them. I am at a point where I practice in air. I move very fast against my imaginary opponent and quickly envision the proper movements of my hands quickly. It takes practice but it works. It's better than hurting students wrist, maybe forever!
And yes I have used joint locks in real combat.
Sifu
Puyallup, WA

 

[drop bear]

You put them on slowly enough that the guy can tap if he has to before he gets injured.

If that is so slow he wriggles out. Then get better at jointocks.

 

[Holmejr]

In Eskrido de Alcuizar we do a lot of this. Beginning students learn the motions and particularly the thresholds of pain, both on the receiving and giving. This gives the student sensitivity. We also teach the urgency of a life threatening attack. We base this on a 3 rule. By the time the student reaches what we consider a proficient level they can perform within our 3 second parameter to the point of destruction and stop short of real injury. There might be pain, but not serious injury. We teach the student that with the capabilities that they’ve cultured, the ball is in their court, along with the moral, legal ramifications that go along with it.

 

[geezer]

At the beginning of this thread, back in 2002, someone posted about practicing joint locks in their FMA Hubud drill. Similarly, I've played with some simple stuff in a Wing Chun chi sau context.

It has been interesting since our first choice of counter is usually to instantaneously punch free as soon as we sense anything like a lock attempt. This encourages the partner working locks to use good set-ups with distractions, and it encourages the person countering to be quick and flexible.

 

[drop bear]

At the beginning of this thread, back in 2002, someone posted about practicing joint locks in their FMA Hubud drill. Similarly, I've played with some simple stuff in a Wing Chun chi sau context.

It has been interesting since our first choice of counter is usually to instantaneously punch free as soon as we sense anything like a lock attempt. This encourages the partner working locks to use good set-ups with distractions, and it encourages the person countering to be quick and flexible.

That's why you have to isolate the elbow. Gives them less to punch out with.

 

[drop bear]

 

[wab25]

There are a couple of things to remember about joint locks. I am going to discuss these from a standing joint lock position, but the same ideas are also valid on the ground.

When we practice standing joint locks, its never supposed to be just about the joint. However, we fall into that trap, thinking its just about the joint. You can easily find someone, who will stand there, and not move his feet while you apply the lock. They don't tap... they are either flexible enough or strong enough that you are not able to make the lock work, when focusing only on the joint you are locking. And they can slap you around while you try...

Doing the lock properly, means to get the joint out of the other guys power range. (the range of motion where he can use his strength) Additionally, you need to break his structure and take his balance. This means that he will not be able to generate power and will make it difficult for him to move... and in doing this, you need to also take out all the slack, from the joint you are attacking, through the spine and hips and down to the floor. Now, you can successfully apply the lock.

I see many people get this when doing the static practice. Then when sparring, all that body work goes out the window, and they focus only on the joint. Now they lose their grip, miss their grip or don't have enough power to make the lock work... All the things that you need to do for the static lock to work (listed above) need to happen when sparring... and are perhaps harder to achieve in all that dynamic motion. But, they still need to happen, in order to apply the lock. If you can apply all of those things, with the exception of applying the lock, then you don't need to apply the lock, you don't need to apply speed or power. You have broken his structure, taken his balance and captured a limb... Now you can do what you want... apply the lock slowly, count to three seconds, throw him down, hit him, kick him...

It has been interesting since our first choice of counter is usually to instantaneously punch free as soon as we sense anything like a lock attempt.

This means that those steps I talked about were not happening... allowing the other to be able to punch with power. As you said, you need a better set up.

The other thing that people miss with applying joint locks... is the definition of "works." That is, we only allow one definition, that being the guys taps out in pain. Yes, that means it works. But there are other definitions for works that we need to recognize. If I can take the other guys balance momentarily, break his structure momentarily or interrupt / change what he is doing... that is working too. In these cases, your lock becomes a set up for something else. Even if all you do is get the other guy to start reacting to you, you have taken the initiative... which is worth having in a fight. So, look for the openings created by your failed lock attempts... then your locks can work, to set up your next attack... or even to invite the punch you want to counter.