Jesse Enkamp on Uechi ryu

He's impressive, interesting, informative and entertaining but he does occasionally overplay his hand and sometimes has a tin ear for nuance, claiming for example that karate is a phillipino martial art and that yoga is just swedish gymnastics. The truth, I suspect, is more complex.
Okinawans had a great deal of contact with Siam, which is not the Philippines but still Southeast Asia, according to Enkamp who probably was informed by McCarthy(Patric) the first book in English that extensively talked about Okinawan culture mentions that Okinawan MA’s came from Siam.

Yoga, the postures we see today are inspired by Swedish gymnastics developed by Pehr Henrik Ling in early 19th century, exported to the British army as it’s fitness program and so spread to India by its Empire, at the time Indian yoga was just seated meditation but someone there saw value in the gymnastics and adopted its postures..

And possible Ling’s gymnastics with its large disciplined groups practice also inspired Okinawan karate to teach and practice in such manner


Pehr Henrik Ling - Bing

😃
 
My Massage therapist trains with Sensei Thompson. I've cross trained with them and it seems so basic on the outside but has a lot of depth to it.
 
according to Enkamp who probably was informed by McCarthy(Patric) the first book in English that extensively talked about Okinawan culture mentions that Okinawan MA’s came from Siam.
Which of McCarthy's books are you referring to?

Okinawa did have close ties to Siam during the Middle Ages and could have been exposed to an early form of muy thai, but to say their MA came from Siam seems to be overstating the case.
 
As I've said before, Jesse is a highly accomplished martial artist who has spent a day or two with many of the top TMA practitioners from a variety of styles. (He's got a great job! Sort of like food critics who spend their time visiting great restaurants eating fantastic food) He knows a lot of stuff. That said, he is a very enthusiastic presenter on his channel which generates income, so there is some entertainment aspect and a tendency to sensationalize/exaggerate a bit here and there. If you've watched his videos, whatever the topic is, it's always "terrifying, deadly" or "amazing" or some other superlative - it just comes with the game. And in truth, much of real TMA can be so described so I don't mind his over-enthusiasm. He's generally fun to watch and educational as long as you can separate the steak from the sizzle.
 
Which of McCarthy's books are you referring to?

Okinawa did have close ties to Siam during the Middle Ages and could have been exposed to an early form of muy thai, but to say their MA came from Siam seems to be overstating the case.
No no I’m not referring to P.McCarthy’s books.
It’s a book supposedly written in the 1950’s, if I recall correctly, a book on the general history of Okinawa, the - ”karate steam from Siam” is just a short note in the book.
The info on it is somewhere on Enkamps website.
That I mentioned McCharty is because I think it’s from him Enkamp got informed about that book, as I understand Enkamp do have some contact with McCarthy on most things about Karate
 
I have to give mad props to Jesse. He created what looks like a successful and hopefully profitable market for himself, gets to learn from a lot of good sources and he’s entertaining.

Good for him, I hope he has a lifelong run.
 
He's original too. Light years away from your run of the mill martial arts teachers.
 
Okay. I don't want to derail the conversation, although it seems to have been somewhat derailed already, so let's see if we can clear some things up about the good Dr Zhougari, and put this to bed (I like Uechi Ryu, and the rest of this conversation doesn't really have anything to do with it, so let's clear it out in one hit, I think).

I can't make my mind up about Enkamp.

Especially after these videos with, allegedly, a self-awarded "Doctor":



Jesse is a dedicated, serious guy, who has a somewhat click-baity youtube channel. Not every video he does is done in the strictest interest of furthering academic and popular education... any number of them are more about getting views for his channel, which, to be fair, is how he's able to then make ones that are more serious and accurate. For probably my favourite of his videos, look to this one:

For my least favourite:

Kacem is... a whole mess of issues. We'll deal with those as we go.

Nerdiness is goodness. I'm more sceptical about the "Dr" in the linked videos.

This will be interesting to see how I can describe things within the bounds of the rules of the site, but... well, we'll see how we go, eh?

Don't know what, if anything, he's a doctor of, but I thought he had some good moves, flowing from one to another. Jesse has a broad base of TMA experience, and I'd like to think he wouldn't peddle someone's BS just for viewership. But with ninjas, who knows?

Heh, Jesse has peddled his own BS "just for viewership"... see the above BJJ tournament video for that...

As far as Kacem, he has a particular following in a certain faction of the Bujinkan, due in no small part to his seemingly "better" technique, and has quite a number of critics, myself amongst them, for what I would consider the superficial "cleanness" covering up for myriad issues in his understanding of a range of aspects, and his usage of his supposed credibility as a PhD to cover deeply flawed practices and basic errors in almost everything he does. But, yes, Jesse absolutely would peddle that BS just for viewership. That's how the youtube business model works, after all...

I am more curious about "Ninjutsu" than about "Dr."

There are posts saying they didn't exist all over.

"It’s a ninjutsu belt. For your own safety, burn it immediately! "🔥

I'll say this simply: you're listening to the wrong people there. But the actual answer is a fair bit more nuanced. I'm going to go back to your thread regarding the Bujinkan belt to deal with that a bit more there.

My understanding, and @Chris Parker would probably have a lot to say about this and a lot to correct, is that there were no secretive “ninja clans” living in the mountains, hiring out their skills to the regional warlords and running around in black costumes to hide their identities. It takes very little contemplation on that scenario to realize how ridiculous and impossible such a reality would be.

Local warlord’s stronghold gets infiltrated and he gets assassinated. So his retainers hike on up the mountain to the local ninja hideout and have words with their leader.

Retainers: “Hey Bob, why did you have your guys bump off Fred last night? I thought we were on favorite customer status.”

Bob the ninja: “hey boys, business is business and I gotta make a living. Jeffrey from down the way came to me with a job and offered a nice price, know what I mean?”

retainers: “oh ok, no worries. Hey, are you still doing that job for us next month?”

Bob the ninja: “oh of course, that contract is solid!”

None of this makes sense, and the “ninjas” would need to keep their identity secret so nobody can take revenge, but at the same time someone who wants to hire them needs to be able to contact them. So how does a “ninja clan” live in their hideout in the mountains, keep their identity secret yet still be contactable, while seeing to the daily needs of life including building and mending houses, cultivating crops, and the other mundane chores of life? It doesn’t make any sense.

I believe that skills of espionage, infiltration, and subterfuge were included within the body of skills of various Ryu. Nobody specialized in being a ninja. That wasn’t anyone’s full-time job. But when the need arose, retainers within a lord’s household had some skills and training to undertake such a mission. I suppose wearing dark clothing for a night mission would make sense for the circumstances, but it wasn’t the “uniform of the ninja”. Rather, they would blend in with the surroundings in whatever way made the most sense, including acting like an ordinary person in a crowd, with legitimate business.

In broad strokes, yeah, this is all pretty much correct. Minor quibbles are that there appeared to be some more "dedicated" ninjutsu ryu-ha, however they were incredibly minor, and always attached to other, larger, bodies of information or groups... but it should be understood that pretty much all "ninja" (that term was highly unlikely to have been the one used) were samurai, simply engaging in particular activities.

I'm well aware of the academic tower.

Less aware of how he climbed it.

Kacem's "academic" credentials come from an institution called INALCO (Institut National des Langues et Civilizations Orientales/National Institute of Oriental Civilisations and Languages), a French institution who have offered accreditation essentially by online submission. He first completed a Masters Thesis, entitled "Ninjutsu: It's Form, History, And Essence", basically an exploration of the Bujinkan and it's arts as well as it's claimed histories, and a PhD Thesis, "The History of Movement In The Japanese Martial Arts: Structure, Way of Thought, and Transmission". This was claimed to be a study of classical arts (koryu), with Kacem using old scrolls, and having discussions with (then) current teachers... however, it was not a subject that was possible to be peer-reviewed by the staff at INALCO, which has led to its credibility being, shall we say, questioned? Considering his slip-shod approach to research (as indicated in his book), his frequent basic mistakes and misinterpretations (to be generous), shown in many of his interviews and comments, including those in the above linked videos, and his heavily biased views towards the clearly inaccurate histories presented in the Bujinkan (and other things), I don't put any stock in his Masters or PhD work.


This guy?

As a fellow "academic", his circular citation and non-peer reviewed publications speak volumes about his integrity.

How he got his doctorate is a VERY interesting avenue.

See above...

I'll actually go one more: he's significantly misinformed.

There's a chance there's a conflagration of persons here... Isshinryuronin is talking about Jesse, you seem to be discussing Kacem... if you're also meaning Jesse, misinformed isn't quite how I'd put it... instead, it's more that he's providing a friendly platform for various persons to present their views... Kacem, on the other hand, yeah... significantly misinformed. And Jesse lets him show it. But we're getting ahead of ourselves.

Was his doctoral thesis submitted in front of a board? Did he defend the thesis?

Likely, no. There are two people who were the doctoral tutors he submitted it to (worked with?), but, again, the relevant knowledge simply isn't there in INALCO to defend or critique it, let along peer-review.

The guy in the second video is Dr. Kacem Zoughari, PhD in Japanese Studies and expert in classical martial arts, has dedicated his life to exploring the depth of Japanese culture — from its language and history to the refined art of movement cultivated by generations of warriors. Through KAGE Teaching & Consulting, he shares this legacy across disciplines: martial arts, academia, cultural consulting, and performance. His approach bridges scholarly insight and lived experience, offering a rare perspective on tradition in motion..

Oh, I know exactly who Kacem is. He's not anything I would consider an "expert", more a somewhat charismatic individual who has convinced some that he has something of value, which he doesn't. His understanding of movement, distance, weapon usage, power generation, and more are lacking, his grasp of historical research and realities are, in large and small ways, questionable, his skills with language are over-estimated and inflated, his scholarly approach is deeply flawed and highly biased, and, frankly, not worth the attention of serious people. I don't have a lot of time for him.
 
No no I’m not referring to P.McCarthy’s books.
It’s a book supposedly written in the 1950’s, if I recall correctly, a book on the general history of Okinawa, the - ”karate steam from Siam” is just a short note in the book.
The info on it is somewhere on Enkamps website.
That I mentioned McCharty is because I think it’s from him Enkamp got informed about that book, as I understand Enkamp do have some contact with McCarthy on most things about Karate
uechi ryu and tiger respecting boxing may have been influenced by muay thai there's some evidence shushiwa may have gone to thailand on business.
 
uechi ryu and tiger respecting boxing may have been influenced by muay thai there's some evidence shushiwa may have gone to thailand on business.
It wouldn't surprise me if Thai arts influenced Okinawa even before the modern era.

Ryukyu was super well connected to the trade and cultures of the time, and the Thai, Khmer and other cultures of the area have a colourful history of hand to hand combat.

Most Buddhist cultures in East Asia do
 
It wouldn't surprise me if Thai arts influenced Okinawa even before the modern era.

Ryukyu was super well connected to the trade and cultures of the time, and the Thai, Khmer and other cultures of the area have a colourful history of hand to hand combat.

Most Buddhist cultures in East Asia do
In the context of Uechi Ryu, it was more Fujian and ryukyu
 
Okay. I don't want to derail the conversation, although it seems to have been somewhat derailed already, so let's see if we can clear some things up about the good Dr Zhougari, and put this to bed (I like Uechi Ryu, and the rest of this conversation doesn't really have anything to do with it, so let's clear it out in one hit, I think).



Jesse is a dedicated, serious guy, who has a somewhat click-baity youtube channel. Not every video he does is done in the strictest interest of furthering academic and popular education... any number of them are more about getting views for his channel, which, to be fair, is how he's able to then make ones that are more serious and accurate. For probably my favourite of his videos, look to this one:

For my least favourite:

Kacem is... a whole mess of issues. We'll deal with those as we go.



This will be interesting to see how I can describe things within the bounds of the rules of the site, but... well, we'll see how we go, eh?



Heh, Jesse has peddled his own BS "just for viewership"... see the above BJJ tournament video for that...

As far as Kacem, he has a particular following in a certain faction of the Bujinkan, due in no small part to his seemingly "better" technique, and has quite a number of critics, myself amongst them, for what I would consider the superficial "cleanness" covering up for myriad issues in his understanding of a range of aspects, and his usage of his supposed credibility as a PhD to cover deeply flawed practices and basic errors in almost everything he does. But, yes, Jesse absolutely would peddle that BS just for viewership. That's how the youtube business model works, after all...



I'll say this simply: you're listening to the wrong people there. But the actual answer is a fair bit more nuanced. I'm going to go back to your thread regarding the Bujinkan belt to deal with that a bit more there.



In broad strokes, yeah, this is all pretty much correct. Minor quibbles are that there appeared to be some more "dedicated" ninjutsu ryu-ha, however they were incredibly minor, and always attached to other, larger, bodies of information or groups... but it should be understood that pretty much all "ninja" (that term was highly unlikely to have been the one used) were samurai, simply engaging in particular activities.



Kacem's "academic" credentials come from an institution called INALCO (Institut National des Langues et Civilizations Orientales/National Institute of Oriental Civilisations and Languages), a French institution who have offered accreditation essentially by online submission. He first completed a Masters Thesis, entitled "Ninjutsu: It's Form, History, And Essence", basically an exploration of the Bujinkan and it's arts as well as it's claimed histories, and a PhD Thesis, "The History of Movement In The Japanese Martial Arts: Structure, Way of Thought, and Transmission". This was claimed to be a study of classical arts (koryu), with Kacem using old scrolls, and having discussions with (then) current teachers... however, it was not a subject that was possible to be peer-reviewed by the staff at INALCO, which has led to its credibility being, shall we say, questioned? Considering his slip-shod approach to research (as indicated in his book), his frequent basic mistakes and misinterpretations (to be generous), shown in many of his interviews and comments, including those in the above linked videos, and his heavily biased views towards the clearly inaccurate histories presented in the Bujinkan (and other things), I don't put any stock in his Masters or PhD work.



See above...



There's a chance there's a conflagration of persons here... Isshinryuronin is talking about Jesse, you seem to be discussing Kacem... if you're also meaning Jesse, misinformed isn't quite how I'd put it... instead, it's more that he's providing a friendly platform for various persons to present their views... Kacem, on the other hand, yeah... significantly misinformed. And Jesse lets him show it. But we're getting ahead of ourselves.



Likely, no. There are two people who were the doctoral tutors he submitted it to (worked with?), but, again, the relevant knowledge simply isn't there in INALCO to defend or critique it, let along peer-review.



Oh, I know exactly who Kacem is. He's not anything I would consider an "expert", more a somewhat charismatic individual who has convinced some that he has something of value, which he doesn't. His understanding of movement, distance, weapon usage, power generation, and more are lacking, his grasp of historical research and realities are, in large and small ways, questionable, his skills with language are over-estimated and inflated, his scholarly approach is deeply flawed and highly biased, and, frankly, not worth the attention of serious people. I don't have a lot of time for him.

I reserve my right to ignorance and scan-reading, but will default to my sensei correcting it out of having it be my modus operandi 🤣

Definitely some miscommunication here, and will elaborate in a coming post. Thanks Chris 🙇‍♂️

For what it's worth, I do love Enkamp's exploration of the arts — particularly his recent one on Aikido.
 
The history of uechi ryu is questionable at best. There is the accepted Shu Shi Wa lore but this doesn't hold up as it creates more questions than answers. For clarity I am not questioning the fact that Kanbun went to China and learned a rudimentary version of martial art. However beyond that we know factually almost nothing.
It is true that Uechi ryu looks like it could be related to Huzun Quan. Emphasis on COULD BE. That being said all of the Chinese arts of any particular area look similar to one another. Saying these Chinese arts were influenced by Muay Thai is highly improbable. It would be like saying, I have brown hair and you have brown hair so we must be related.
 
The history of uechi ryu is questionable at best. There is the accepted Shu Shi Wa lore but this doesn't hold up as it creates more questions than answers. For clarity I am not questioning the fact that Kanbun went to China and learned a rudimentary version of martial art. However beyond that we know factually almost nothing.
It is true that Uechi ryu looks like it could be related to Huzun Quan. Emphasis on COULD BE.
Unfortunately, this summation is true for a lot of karate. In Uechi's case it is supposed he learned from Shu Shi, aka Zhou Ziha from whom he received his menkyo, and also Zheng Xianji as well and spending a bit of time at the Kojo dojo, for a total of 13 years spent in Fuzhou. Tiger-Crane is thought to have been his main art, but he likely studied others as well. Returning to Okinawa, he called what he taught Pangai No'on.

I'd be interested to know why you say the "Shu Shi Wa lore...doesn't hold up" and what questions it raises. I haven't read anything specific to this effect, though it's quite possible. We know little of just what Uechi learned, but from what Uechi-ryu became, there must have been a strong foundation IMO.
 
Some quick check on the net - Shu ShiWa seems to have come from Yunnan province of China, quite far from Fujian’s Fuzhou, he and Kanbun was about same age and around 20 yrs old when Kanbun began study. After some time Kanbun got permission to open his own school, one story tells in Fuzhou another tells in Nanjing
 
Unfortunately, this summation is true for a lot of karate. In Uechi's case it is supposed he learned from Shu Shi, aka Zhou Ziha from whom he received his menkyo, and also Zheng Xianji as well and spending a bit of time at the Kojo dojo, for a total of 13 years spent in Fuzhou. Tiger-Crane is thought to have been his main art, but he likely studied others as well. Returning to Okinawa, he called what he taught Pangai No'on.

I'd be interested to know why you say the "Shu Shi Wa lore...doesn't hold up" and what questions it raises. I haven't read anything specific to this effect, though it's quite possible. We know little of just what Uechi learned, but from what Uechi-ryu became, there must have been a strong foundation IMO.
There is a lot to unpack here to answer your question. I will break it into a few posts.
In 1984 a delegation of uechi ryu seniors took a trip to China in search of Shu Shi Wa. I'll post an interview here with George Matson the man that brought Uechi rty to America in 1958. He is interviewing his teacher Tomoyose Sensei who at the time may have been the most senior practioner of Uechi ryu.
In the clip he states that after this trip they no longer believe Shu Shi to be Kanbuns teacher and that earlier in 1966 Tomoyose traveled to Taiwan and an old martial artist said Uechi style probably came from Zhou Zi He and since then this is what they believed.
(Comments at 2min and 6 min in video)
 
Martial art forms carry a kind of DNA like markers that are identifiable if your experienced to see them. Most experienced MA can quickly know a Shotokan form from Goju from American Kempo. The same will hold true when looking at Uechi and Chinese forms. When looking at Uechi sanchi. And Seisan forms they do not hold many of the critical DNA markers when compared to the Fujian Crane styles. Many people say Kanbun was friends with Gokenki and learned Crane style. They are not the same. So we started looking at the Tiger styles HuZun Quan. Now here we do see some familiar markers. Most prominent is a single hand thrust in Sanchin where in Crane we only see double arm thrusts.
Shu Shi Wa was a student of Zheng Xianji of Huzun Quan. But Zhou style decendents still exists and it does not look like Uechi.
 
Current Chinese Huzun Quan schools claim Kanbun studied the style under Zheng Xianji which would make more sense chronologically then Zhou. Since both Kanbun and Zhou were like 20 years old. But this is a problem because if that were true why didn't Kanbun call his style Huzun Quan or at least Tora Ryu. (Side note Kanbun never really taught in Okinawa, he was there for a few years upon return from China, got married and moved to Wakiyama mainland Japan) Kanbun instead called his school Pangainoon. Which would be very odd if the story of him receiving his teaching certificate was true. There is also the problem that when compared to the Huzun Quan curriculum Uechi holds a very small portion of what a full Chinese style would include. Uechi history says Kanbun didn't learn the last form Suparenpai but Huzan Quan has at least another 10 forms some of which are important foundational forms like Seimen (four gates). Uechi Seisan and Sanaeiru are not in the Huzun curriculum. But there are some large similarities between Seisan and a shorter Huzun form 7 step pagoda.
 
When Kanbun came to China he most likely would have stayed in an Okinawan community. The Ryukyu hall still exists in Fuzhou where many Okinawan travelers would stay in those days. I think its safe to say Uechi style is only a partial of a Chinese art. I am not disparaging it, it's my art and I love it but let's be honest about it. So is it possible that within the okinawan community in China they shared with each other martial arts? I'll add in here that Higaonna of Goju ryu studied in China as well as the founder of Okinawan Ryuru Ryu.but no one has a solid clue where they came from and why they are not named after the Chinese styles(white crane). Now guess what all three styles share the same 2 forms Sanchin and Seisan and I'm not talking about sharing the name I mean the same kata. Yes there are very small differences but when comparing these forms to each other and then to the Chinese counterparts it becomes obvious. They are the same forms and they are nowhere to be found in chinese styles.(name yes movements no) So how did that happen?
You can't make an argument that the roots of Uechi is from Huzun Quan from Yongtai village and Goju comes from White crane in Yongchun but share the same foundational kata but those forms are not in the Chinese styles.
 
Thanks, hoshin1600 for taking the time to detail the ambiguities of Uechi-ryu lineage. Most Okinawan styles have some measure of uncertainties in their lineage but are minor compared to what you presented!

I think it's clear that no single pure Chinese style was brought to Okinawa by any particular teacher; rather a mixture of them (which probably was the case of what Uechi's pangai no'on represents) and were then modified into something uniquely Okinawan. And we must factor in Kanbun's son, Kanai, who modified and added to what was now called Uechi-ryu during the late1920's-WWll (the time period of Okinawan karate evolving into actual styles) making it even more difficult to trace kata back to China. Additionally, some Chinese schools that contributed to karate formation died out, so there's nothing to trace back to.

Okinawan karate did not have "styles" at the start of the 20th century. For the next decade or two they still were not concrete entities, existing only informally with the various masters sharing and cross training their skills amongst each other, each of them generally having learned from a combination of teachers themselves. They are different streams swirling and mixing together, then separating into their own divergent channels.

The 3 bo kata I know show many similarities in structure yet have different lineages: Kedahama>Kyan. Itosu and Aragake>Mabuni>Taira. Kamiya>Taira. Tatsuo Shimabuku learned these kata from Kyan and Taira. They in turn have similarities to bo kata, Soeishi and Urasoe, done by other styles.
So how did that happen?
Who knows? All part of TMA mystique.
 
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