Jesse Enkamp on Uechi ryu

Thanks, hoshin1600 for taking the time to detail the ambiguities of Uechi-ryu lineage. Most Okinawan styles have some measure of uncertainties in their lineage but are minor compared to what you presented!

I think it's clear that no single pure Chinese style was brought to Okinawa by any particular teacher; rather a mixture of them (which probably was the case of what Uechi's pangai no'on represents) and were then modified into something uniquely Okinawan. And we must factor in Kanbun's son, Kanai, who modified and added to what was now called Uechi-ryu during the late1920's-WWll (the time period of Okinawan karate evolving into actual styles) making it even more difficult to trace kata back to China. Additionally, some Chinese schools that contributed to karate formation died out, so there's nothing to trace back to.

Okinawan karate did not have "styles" at the start of the 20th century. For the next decade or two they still were not concrete entities, existing only informally with the various masters sharing and cross training their skills amongst each other, each of them generally having learned from a combination of teachers themselves. They are different streams swirling and mixing together, then separating into their own divergent channels.

The 3 bo kata I know show many similarities in structure yet have different lineages: Kedahama>Kyan. Itosu and Aragake>Mabuni>Taira. Kamiya>Taira. Tatsuo Shimabuku learned these kata from Kyan and Taira. They in turn have similarities to bo kata, Soeishi and Urasoe, done by other styles.

Who knows? All part of TMA mystique.
Kanbun Uechi never taught on Okinawa, at least openly. I've been told he taught using the Chinese language. The official history says he taught in China and then in Wakiyama. Kanbun had many senior students that were more senior and older than his son Kanei. There are 4 or 5 lineages from Kanbun that were fairly independent from Kanei. For that reason we are very confident that the forms did not change over time at least not significantly. In 1958 Kanei did standardize the style and curriculum. A few senior students created additional kata. This is where it leaned heavily into trying to be karate and not Chinese kung fu. It's worth noting that not all lineages adopted this. It would be foolish to think Kanbun himself didn't change anything, especially where he was teaching a Chinese art in pre-WWII Japan. But its been said that Kanbun was adamant about passing on the art as he learned it. The true history of Uechi ryu in China is probably lost to time. I can trace my teachers back 6 generations, is it really going to matter when I'm gone if we know the actual Chinese individuals, probably not. Kinda like the ugly hand made tool box my great grandfather made that I have. My kids are gonna toss it in the trash when I'm gone. There is no connection there for them.
 
I reserve my right to ignorance and scan-reading, but will default to my sensei correcting it out of having it be my modus operandi 🤣

Definitely some miscommunication here, and will elaborate in a coming post. Thanks Chris šŸ™‡ā€ā™‚ļø

For what it's worth, I do love Enkamp's exploration of the arts — particularly his recent one on Aikido.

Nah there’s a lot of proof on the Chinese side for the lineage and Kanbun sensei is recognized by the Yong Tai Tiger Respecting Boxing Association as a 4-5th (I forget) lineage holder. Uechi Ryu experienced a change in the late 20th century in the main branch- there are lineages that retain a the archaic style of performance. Regardless, what people don’t understand about Fujian martial arts specifically Tiger boxing and crane is that the forms are reference guides to pools of techniques and teachers would sometimes create customs curriculums for students. For example all white crane styles pull from the same pool of 300 or so techniques. What changes is the emphasis on which techniques and how those techniques can be deployed to affect a specific strategy. With that in mind, the specific techniques and strategy of yongtai huzunquan and Uechi Ryu are identical, they had the same Sanchin (like step for step) until the 90s when they changed it for competition purposes. The difference between surviving Fujian lineages and Uechi Ryu is that Kanbun sensei brought back an earlier edition of the SparkNotes ie kata.

What’s completely nebulous is Higaonna’s background. At least the Zhou family recorded Kanbun’s stay and training in their family records book.
 
there’s a lot of proof on the Chinese side for the lineage and Kanbun sensei is recognized by the Yong Tai Tiger Respecting Boxing Association as a 4-5th (I forget) lineage holder.
Ok, can you show me the proof please?
I would guess your refering to Will Wain-Williams video and interview. That interview was extremely awkward. The master made the claim that they taught Kanbun then will asked why the forms don't look the same and the interview spent the remainder of the interview trying to explain that Kanbun changed things. But I've already laid out that at least for kata, he didn't. Uechi ryu is known all over the planet. Claiming Kanbun as your student probably is a major factor in how the school and style got recognized as I national treasure status (Gov funding included) But they are not the only school making that claim. The school and decendents of zhou Zi He also make that claim. I've had my own personal experience watching a top notch karate practioner who broke away from his teacher being claimed by another 10th Dan teacher. Basically saying "He's my student, and insinuating, i taught him everything he knows. I would need to see some proof as I don't think we have any.
Uechi Ryu experienced a change in the late 20th century in the main branch- there are lineages that retain a the archaic style of performance.
Could you post what you think is an example of archaic?
Gushi sensei has his version and Toyama has his particularities but across the spectrum of personal variation they are not that different. I'll admit the Wakiyama versions could be called archaic but honestly they were left on their own for a long time and I don't think it's really different, just sloppy.
 
Ok, can you show me the proof please?
I would guess your refering to Will Wain-Williams video and interview. That interview was extremely awkward. The master made the claim that they taught Kanbun then will asked why the forms don't look the same and the interview spent the remainder of the interview trying to explain that Kanbun changed things. But I've already laid out that at least for kata, he didn't. Uechi ryu is known all over the planet. Claiming Kanbun as your student probably is a major factor in how the school and style got recognized as I national treasure status (Gov funding included) But they are not the only school making that claim. The school and decendents of zhou Zi He also make that claim. I've had my own personal experience watching a top notch karate practioner who broke away from his teacher being claimed by another 10th Dan teacher. Basically saying "He's my student, and insinuating, i taught him everything he knows. I would need to see some proof as I don't think we have any.

Could you post what you think is an example of archaic?
Gushi sensei has his version and Toyama has his particularities but across the spectrum of personal variation they are not that different. I'll admit the Wakiyama versions could be called archaic but honestly they were left on their own for a long time and I don't think it's really different, just sloppy.
It’s literally in the zhou family records and you can read them Uechi Ryu Bunburyodo vol. 3. There are no smoking guns but it’s not made up from thin air either. I’ve also heard that Kanbun Sensei learned from Zhous’ teacher and I think it happened here and there but Zhou Zi He was Kanbun’s primary teacher.

Keep in mind extant Fujian Tiger styles do not share forms either. The Guo family and Yong Tai styles don’t even have the same Sanchin but they both come from the same line. That doesn’t account for Pingan County tiger boxing which comes from any different albeit related branch which has different forms also.

I think people cast very modern assumptions onto pre WW2/pre cultural revolution Fujian martial arts. 5 Ancestors Fist was founded in the 1890s. Cranes styles other than Yong Chun weren’t formalized until the 20s and Yong Chun isn’t much older. Chinese teachers would teach wholly different forms to different students at different times.
 
Nah there’s a lot of proof on the Chinese side for the lineage and Kanbun sensei is recognized by the Yong Tai Tiger Respecting Boxing Association as a 4-5th (I forget) lineage holder. Uechi Ryu experienced a change in the late 20th century in the main branch- there are lineages that retain a the archaic style of performance. Regardless, what people don’t understand about Fujian martial arts specifically Tiger boxing and crane is that the forms are reference guides to pools of techniques and teachers would sometimes create customs curriculums for students. For example all white crane styles pull from the same pool of 300 or so techniques. What changes is the emphasis on which techniques and how those techniques can be deployed to affect a specific strategy. With that in mind, the specific techniques and strategy of yongtai huzunquan and Uechi Ryu are identical, they had the same Sanchin (like step for step) until the 90s when they changed it for competition purposes. The difference between surviving Fujian lineages and Uechi Ryu is that Kanbun sensei brought back an earlier edition of the SparkNotes ie kata.

What’s completely nebulous is Higaonna’s background. At least the Zhou family recorded Kanbun’s stay and training in their family records book.
Who change the sanchin for competition purpose , the Fujian Tiger boxing or Uechi-ryu ?
(Is Sanchin kata really used for competition purpose ?)
 
It’s literally in the zhou family records and you can read them Uechi Ryu Bunburyodo vol. 3.
Ah, Mr. Breyettes books. I won't comment on those since I haven't read them, but I have been meaning to. Side note: Mr. Siezan Breyette is a member here and does sometimes post. I know hes done a lot of of research on collecting the stories about Shu Shi Wa from the Uechi seniors. But as I've said making the assumption that Zhou was Kanbuns teacher some how just doesn't add up. It raises many questions that can't be answered.
 
That's kinda my point. Yong Tai version, Zhou style version and Uechi version are not the same. They are similar but so is every other Sanchin out of the 100s of them that exist across multiple styles. Each school claiming there version is unchanged.
Chinese styles can be different and separated by province, county , village, family or even house hold.
 
(Is Sanchin kata really used for competition purpose ?)
This threw me off, too. I've never seen sanchin performed in open competition - it's just not dynamic or long enough in comparison to other forms. Competition, IMO, is only reasonable within a particular style where it's unique elements can be appreciated.

The value of this kata lies not in the outward technique, but in the demonstration and testing of its fundamental principles. For this, shime must be performed. This basically entails one doing the kata while another provides resistance to his movements as well as firmly striking various body parts to test for tenseness and immovability, and other things - these contacts should not affect the kata's performance. Better to check out a couple of You tubes: "Goju or Uechiryu sanchin shime".
 
This threw me off, too. I've never seen sanchin performed in open competition - it's just not dynamic or long enough in comparison to other forms. Competition, IMO, is only reasonable within a particular style where it's unique elements can be appreciated.

The value of this kata lies not in the outward technique, but in the demonstration and testing of its fundamental principles. For this, shime must be performed. This basically entails one doing the kata while another provides resistance to his movements as well as firmly striking various body parts to test for tenseness and immovability, and other things - these contacts should not affect the kata's performance. Better to check out a couple of You tubes: "Goju or Uechiryu sanchin shime".
Do you compete much in CMA forms tournaments?

Most modern Sanchin shime is larp lol
 
Ah, Mr. Breyettes books. I won't comment on those since I haven't read them, but I have been meaning to. Side note: Mr. Siezan Breyette is a member here and does sometimes post. I know hes done a lot of of research on collecting the stories about Shu Shi Wa from the Uechi seniors. But as I've said making the assumption that Zhou was Kanbuns teacher some how just doesn't add up. It raises many questions that can't be answered.
You keep framing it as ā€œan assumptionā€ evidence to the contrary and not really providing anything yourself.

Doesn’t matter if they claim ā€œunchangedā€. 1) it’s undeniable fact that Guo and YongTai lines come from Zhou. 2) As stated the same teacher could teach three different student 3 different forms. 3) you’re further proving my point.
 
You keep framing it as ā€œan assumptionā€ evidence to the contrary and not really providing anything yourself.

Doesn’t matter if they claim ā€œunchangedā€. 1) it’s undeniable fact that Guo and YongTai lines come from Zhou. 2) As stated the same teacher could teach three different student 3 different forms. 3) you’re further proving my point.
For starters, I'll I'm saying is that if you take what your saying as fact, that it opens up a few questions that I don't see an answer to. We if disagree on that, that's fine by me. I'm just explaining my position.
second.... am I reading your post correctly, the Guo family and YongTai lineage COMES FROM Zhou Zi He? I must not be reading that correctly.
 
Do you compete much in CMA forms tournaments?
Isshinryu is an Okinawan style derived from shorinryu and influenced by gojuryu. So, no, I never competed in CMA.
Most modern Sanchin shime is larp lol
Perhaps. In order to perform shime on the practitioner the instructor must fully understand sanchin himself. When done properly, it's an intense challenge fully testing one's mind, spirit and body. It's not called sanchin (the three battles) for nothing.
 
Yong Tai Huzunquan changed their Sanchin and they’re open about it.
I found a couple of videos here on the Chinese tubes, about their Sanchin form it looks ok(interesting), can’t say what is the change, it doesn’t look any especially stylistic for competition, however there are a few more forms that share some characteristics from the Sanchin but are a little more ā€activeā€ and with some jump landing in pu-bu (squat-low stance), and there are some form looking like something from hung-gar style/Nanquan
 
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