does karate include grappling

[jobo]

This is silly. MMA practitioners are capable of practicing striking with grappling all the time. Why are you making excuses here for the absence of grappling in a full contact kumite within highly traditional Okinawan karate?



Well there's no striking in Judo outside of their kata, so I would not expect to see Judoka striking each other. There's also no grappling in Karate outside of their kata, which is why I wasn't surprised to see very little grappling in a full contact kumite. Notice a pattern here? When something is locked behind the kata wall, it tends to not be practiced. Thus, when the rubber hits the road you end up simply not using it because you haven't developed the muscle memory to pull it from your toolbox.

MMA fighters learn grappling pretty much the way wrestlers, judoka, and BJJ practitioners learn grappling, so it is far easier to employ it when actually fighting. If I pulled up MMA full contact sparring similar to that Okinawan Karate kumite, you would see grappling constantly, because they're simply using a superior training method of combining grappling with striking.



Again, are we talking about the Uechi-Ryu video where they're going over the grappling techniques in the kata, or are we talking about the 10-person kumite video where it's showing Goju-Ryu black belts in Okinawa treating a big white guy like a giant punching bag? My point here is that in the full contact kumite video very little grappling is employed. If you blink you miss the very few attempts of grappling made, and it generally came from a "clinch" situation, not the "seizing" concepts found in the bunkai.

What does this tell me? Exactly what I mentioned about grappling in karate earlier; It's "there", but good luck learning how to properly employ it.

your still flogging the only in kata strawman, some karate, practice grappling, i know this because i do o have no idea what % do, but nether do you.


if i end up grappling, its largely because ive failed at striking, thats the only time you will see me doing it, in a competative situation, if i end up on the floor its because ive failed at ( stand up) grappeling

if your showibg vids of people who havent failed, then your unlikely to see them grapple, and they will resist attempt by others to turn it into a grappeling mach

in our hard sparing, i fail at,striking quite a lot, some are just to fast for me, so i use the grapple system quite a lot, as generaly if i do get hold of them its the end of the contest

close up it has some notable similarities to jujitsu

 

[Hanzou]

your still flogging the only in kata strawman, some karate, practice grappling, i know this because i do o have no idea what % do, but nether do you.


if i end up grappling, its largely because ive failed at striking, thats the only time you will see me doing it, in a competative situation, if i end up on the floor its because ive failed at ( stand up) grappeling

if your showibg vids of people who havent failed, then your unlikely to see them grapple, and they will resist attempt by others to turn it into a grappeling mach

in our hard sparing, i fail at,striking quite a lot, some are just to fast for me, so i use the grapple system quite a lot, as generaly if i do get hold of them its the end of the contest

close up it has some notable similarities to jujitsu

What a ridiculous response.

Grappling is a strategy, just like striking. Sometimes you're going to have to grapple because you can't strike. Sometimes you're going to have to strike because you can't grapple. It's not a "failure" of one or the other. Both should be utilized to achieve the same exact goal.

Additionally, those Goju-Ryu practitioners didn't grapple because their striking was amazing. They didn't grapple because they didn't know how to do it.

Further, since multiple people here have continuously told me that they do some form of grappling in karate, yet still haven't produced anything other than anecdotal evidence about how they're grappling masters in their personal dojos, you'll excuse me if I don't believe a word you're saying.

 

[jobo]

What a ridiculous response.

Grappling is a strategy, just like striking. Sometimes you're going to have to grapple because you can't strike. Sometimes you're going to have to strike because you can't grapple. It's not a "failure" of one or the other. Both should be utilized to achieve the same exact goal.

Additionally, those Goju-Ryu practitioners didn't grapple because their striking was amazing. They didn't grapple because they didn't know how to do it.

Further, since multiple people here have continuously told me that they do some form of grappling in karate, yet still haven't produced anything other than anecdotal evidence about how they're grappling masters in their personal dojos, you'll excuse me if I don't believe a word you're saying.

there are different philosophys of fighting, dependent on circumstance and attributes, back the the real world, hulking great weight lifters will probebly want to grappel,it is literally where their strengh lies, my aproach woukd be stay out of grabbing range, hit and move, coz life is sweet,

your will probebly be take his legs and tie him on knots, they both, if they work achieve the same objective, that you live to see another day.

im not saying im a grappeling master, im sayibg we practice and use grappeling techniques not disimilar to Japanese jujitsu, now i dont exspect that to impress you much as youve aleady told me how low your opinion of jj is,

but it is what it is, and its grappling for want of a more accurate desription

 

[hoshin1600]

Here's the problem;

When I see karate practitioners attempt to do grappling, it's almost always coming out of their kata, which is dubious at best. Then when they go to practice these throws and techniques, they utilize the one-step method with pretty much zero resistance. Here's a video describing what I'm talking about;

Looks good right? You would look at something like that and go "Of course Karate has grappling, look at those movements, they look just like the kata!".

Except then you look at Judo randori (you know, when you actually have to throw a fully resisting partner) this is what it looks like;

And you realize a pretty big difference very quickly. Are the Okinawan karate practitioners doing randori like the Judoka? I highly doubt it, and if they're not then I have to seriously call into question the efficacy of their practice.

so i am not going to argue with Hanzou since he is all knowing and all seeing,

however for those others who read this....
he posted video clips, one is an exercise that is done, one step at a time executed most often by the instructors count, that is designed for white belt beginners, then compares it to two black belts doing free style rolling. good grief.

COPY
i dont know ...if all BJJ guys practice this slow and without resistance i dont see how it can work. and they are brown and black belts how pathetic. i would expect much more from them.
see how stupid that sounds, folks.
now in full disclosure i dont know the Uechi drill he shown in his clip, its not part of the traditional curriculum, it s something that was made up in the 1990's for beginners.
i also dont particularly like the drill. i will also say i am not a fan the way the Okinawan Schools practice.

quick history story for those interested.
back in the early 1990's the Uechi ryu organization blew up. for political reasons i wont get into but its the same old, same old fall out that all MA organizations seem to go through. It dissolved into many groups and organizations with different names. curriculum where changed and added to. this is where that drill was born in Okinawa. Here in the States we too had our political problems. many of us took issue with a lot of the practices that were being taught. you see in the 1950's and 60's there was a whole lot of stuff that was added into the system that was meant to be nothing more than a show for public demonstrations for tourists, or added as fluff to keep the Americans interested, and i dont mean small things either ,the style went from 3 forms to 8 and so much more. The original style was based mostly around physical fitness training and sparring. but in the early karate days Shotokan had something like 120 kata so all kinds of crap was added into the system to try and compete.
so back the the 1990's many of us (myself included) had very heated "debates" about the crap in the required curriculum. we had our reasons for wanting to move away from certain things and the heads and board members had their reasons for keeping it in, even tho they would admit its blatant crap. i listened to the reasoning and i can understand their position. for many of us we walked away from the name and organization. many people over time actually reconciled and are now working together.

 

[hoshin1600]

And of course we fall into that oldie but goodie, if a tree falls in the woods but its not on YouTube it didn't happen.
Well Hanzou I haven't seen a YouTube of you posted here so I guess your MA doesn't exist either. You must be another armchair warrior.

 

[Hanzou]

And of course we fall into that oldie but goodie, if a tree falls in the woods but its not on YouTube it didn't happen.
Well Hanzou I haven't seen a YouTube of you posted here so I guess your MA doesn't exist either. You must be another armchair warrior.

I thought we were talking about styles, not personal ability. You're free to believe whatever you wish about my skills, but that isn't really the point of this topic. The point of this topic is whether or not karate really contains grappling. Now, from individuals like yourself, you say that Okinawan karate is where this grappling is most prevalent. Well I posted 2 vids of Okinawan Karate black belts doing heavy sparring, and there's no grappling present. So how should we interpret that?

Here's another example;

I found this one quite interesting, because the smaller guy stayed in striking range of the taller guy's striking range. I found that bizarre because if we were talking about MMA/GJJ, the sound strategy would be to get inside their striking range and grapple. However, no grappling occurred. The taller guy did grab the shorter guy's sleeve, but that was because he had such a stupid reach advantage that he could accomplish that without getting punished.

The point is this is yet another example of Okinawan/Traditional karate not showing grappling in practice, which throws into question how it's trained, or if it's trained.

 

[drop bear]

i dont know ...if all BJJ guys practice this slow and without resistance i dont see how it can work

That club specifically does practice live with resistance.

So without understanding the concepts we can still see the method working.

It is like comparing apples to evidence of apples.

 

[drop bear]

And of course we fall into that oldie but goodie, if a tree falls in the woods but its not on YouTube it didn't happen.
Well Hanzou I haven't seen a YouTube of you posted here so I guess your MA doesn't exist either. You must be another armchair warrior

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[hoshin1600]

That club specifically does practice live with resistance.

So without understanding the concepts we can still see the method working.

It is like comparing apples to evidence of apples.

I was being snarky. Hanzou posted a clip of a drill for whitebelts and making it look like that was the end result and all that karate does. So I was trying to show that anyone can pull a clip out of context and crap on it.
But I actually think the armbar clip was pretty good. But I picked that clip because when I learned the armbar my instructor was insistent on doing it step by step and very slow so no one gets hurt and each step is understood and done right.
The karate methodology is different than BJJ. At least as from my experience. Karate tends to teach by baby steps and it takes a long time. Where I see BJJ as being less controlled and more haphazard but pushing the pace and students get good quick or they quit. BJJ pushes students in the water and say swim or drown. That might not be all schools but its been my experience.

I do understand Hanzous non belief that karate is worth while, just as I understand your own (Dropbear) reservations about a lot of martial arts. The older and more experienced i get the more I find in MA that I dont agree with but I also don't feel the need to bash people over the head and try to convince people and change the world, at least I don't anymore.
Its a waste of energy. Thats why I dont bother much with this sight or the internet in general. People are are screaming into the void angry and trying to change others minds but no one cares, no one is listening. They are too busy screaming themselves.

 

[drop bear]

I was being snarky. Hanzou posted a clip of a drill for whitebelts and making it look like that was the end result and all that karate does. So I was trying to show that anyone can pull a clip out of context and crap on it.

Yeah. But it doesn't work. It is just these logic knots that are used to justify systems without using evidence.

You put a video out of context. I added context. Hanzou put a video out of context. And we just sort of drop off a cliff.

So bjj uses static drills fine but those drills work because the same bjj school shows them working. We have built a case for that club based on its own merits.

And if this was the standard we based martial arts on we wouldn't have useless martial arts.

 

[Hanzou]

Just FYI I didn’t post a video out of context. I showed a group of Uechi Ryu black belts displaying their training methodology for grappling. I then showed a group of Judo black belts showing their training methodology for grappling. I don’t know what issue @hoshin1600 had with the karate videos I put up. If s/he feels they’re out of context, s/he’s more than welcome to show us one that better represents grappling in Karate.

 

[hoshin1600]

I showed a group of Uechi Ryu black belts displaying their training methodology for grappling

Thats just it. The clip wasn't grappling. It was a demonstration of a white belt one step kumite drill. Of course for the documentary which is where the clip might have been taken from, they would not use white belts for the camera.
There may have been a little bit of grappling in the kumite but thats not the point of the drill. So its apples to oranges.its out of context.

 

[Hanzou]

Thats just it. The clip wasn't grappling. It was a demonstration of a white belt one step kumite drill. Of course for the documentary which is where the clip might have been taken from, they would not use white belts for the camera.
There may have been a little bit of grappling in the kumite but thats not the point of the drill. So its apples to oranges.its out of context.

And the three examples of Okinawan Karate sparring where no grappling takes place?

 

[hoshin1600]

And the three examples of Okinawan Karate sparring where no grappling takes place?

Then thats an example of where it doesn't take place.
If something like grappling is only 5% or less of the style your going to be hard pressed to find video clips of it.
Your barking up the wrong tree here. I started this thread saying karate " generally" doesn't have grappling but I was open enough to change my mind based on what others were saying and their definitions.

 

[isshinryuronin]

An important point is being missed here, one that did not occur to me until really considering many of the posted comments and video clips: Apples - competitive/sport; Oranges - everyday self-defense.

Well there's no striking in Judo outside of their kata, so I would not expect to see Judoka striking each other. There's also no grappling in Karate outside of their kata, which is why I wasn't surprised to see very little grappling in a full contact kumite.

Some arts, like judo, developed largely in a competitive sport context. Karate developed in the context of everyday self-defense, and only later became sport oriented, so sort of became a split personality. There is much grabbing in its kata where its historical self-defense roots are preserved. And true, not so much in sport kumite.

As it evolved into a sport, many of these roots were left behind, eventually being forgotten (or at least ignored) by many lineages. Shotokan, TKD, and most Western schools of all styles (including Okinawan to varying extent) mostly fit this category as they stressed the competitive sport aspect of karate.

Some techniques are good for competition (some of which I would never use in a real fight) and some are better suited for general self-defense against the "average," not well trained attacker, and are not as useful (or prohibited) in competition. The style of attack in these two catagories are different, and so are the ways of dealing with them.

Karate grabbing techniques are often counter-grabs against an attack one might come across in the street, but not so much in competition (like chokes, wrist or lapel grabs.) They are also effective follow-ups after blocking strikes by an untrained, or little trained, fighter who may overextend an arm or leave it out too long, not anchor the elbow or be off balance. Of course, finishing strikes are done in conjunction with the grabs (and become much more effective.)

Note that prior to the advent of sport karate, the art was completely devoted to self-defense, heavily utilized grabbing techniques, and was very effective. There are many stories of the old Okinawan experts kicking butt and often seriously injuring their attackers in challenge matches or in bars.

I think that seen from this perspective, it is better understood why grabbing is not often seen in kumite (or anywhere.) Where I train, we concentrate on traditional pre-sport karate and practice hikite and tuite not only in kata, but also in two man drills (with reasonable resistance.) Other schools concentrate on what has evolved into sport karate (by choice, or by not having learned the older techniques that reside in kata.) Others, have some of each.

So, modern karate does have a split personality that I understand has caused confusion as seen on this thread. I sincerely hope this post puts it all into a framework that is comfortable for all. As I previously posted, each MA has its unique history, fundamentals, and uses. Karate's are just a little more complex and confused, depending on which karate you are looking at - the apple karate, or the orange.