I have 1st dan "official status" (meaning I was sucker enough to pay for it) in TKD and HKD. I was wondering what the rules/ethics of issuing belts to my son who is learning TKD? I am de-enrolling him from a McDojo, as the contract is up. I want him to continue to learn and when it is appropriate, I would issue a higher belt. Suggestions?
Issue Belts to Son?
- Thread starter Rumy73
- Start date
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Totally fine. Plenty of people teach their own kids, and frequently they're actually more demanding with their own flesh and blood. Just follow a consistent curriculum and grade your son fairly, though I'm sure that won't be an issue.
In principle -- no problem. However, my understanding of TKD ranking is that a 1st dan doesn't generally have the authority to issue rank or teach unsupervised. My only point there is that it may lead to a credibility issue, no matter how demanding your instruction may be. Also -- have you maintained your own training and skill to be able to demonstrate and teach?
I think of this like battlefield promotions. You can raise someone only so far under the circumstances...but then it's reviewed.
As for standardized promotions...isn't it generally accepted that one can rank one's own students under shodan/10th-1st kyu (in this case, it's your son)? (Better yet, to have another teacher sit-in with the testing.)
As for standardized promotions...isn't it generally accepted that one can rank one's own students under shodan/10th-1st kyu (in this case, it's your son)? (Better yet, to have another teacher sit-in with the testing.)
dancingalone
Grandmaster
There is no uniform handling of this across TKD. Frankly speaking, I think too much is being made of things when we worry about minutiae such as chodans not being able to award a yellow belt or not. It's his kid and his student. Rank away, I say. It's not like the biggest TKD body in the world, the KKW, even bothers to record colored belt ranks to begin with.
Depends on the style of taekwondo and what you believe geup belt ranks mean. For the most part you can do anything you want. Martial arts are not regulated in the U.S.
Stricty speaking, In Kukkiwon taekwondo, the only teacher allowed to independently rank and issue geup (colored belt) rank and certification is a Kukkiwon 4th dan. The only person allowed to recommend a student for 1st-3rd dan/poom kukkiwon promotion is a 4th dan and above. Essentailly, even if you are a 4th dan, you can't recomment someone to the same dan/poom rank that you are. Usually the promotion comes after a test with at least two judges present. Also, in Korea, the 4th dan recommending students for dan/poom certification, should also have Kukkiwon master instructor certification/licence. There are about 1,500 non-Korean Kukkiwon certified master instructors worldwide, and many of them are in the U.S.
Many of us on this board know Kukkiwon rules are routinely broken, and there's no real consequence to breaking them. The public/consumers do not seem to care. Essentailly, do what you please. If you son ever want to compete in serious WTF sparring or poomsae tournaments, he will need Kukkiwon dan/poom certification. Of course he will also need real skill to compete.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
This is all true to the best of my knowledge too.
The problem may come at that time that he wants to move to a club to obtain Kukkiwon certification, but they may not accept his Geup certificates issues outside of the Kukkiwon (or MNA) rules.
I would personally advise just teaching him. When he does eventually move to a club, he'll move up the ranks quickly if he has a decent skill level and you'll have much less political issues by him just being very good and ready to jump tests, than trying to explain/justify geup rank issued by a non-qualified instructor.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
I've posted on the rules (regarding 1st dan's promoting people). To take the ethics side, I have no issue with a father promoting his children. Indeed I do it. If anything I have higher standards required for my own children than my other students and they often get extra private training in the lead-up to a test. In the old days martial arts were passed from father to son, so I can't see how it's any different.
Also, if the Kukkiwon rules don't explicitly forbid it, I'd take that as implied consent that they are OK with it.
My thought would be, it all depends. If your intent is to teach your son with no chance of taking him to black belt, and beyond, then I would say training him is ok. If you foresee the possibility, then it would also depend on your continued training. As ArchTKD stated, a person has to be 4th Dan before they can certify a Dan through KKW. If you get your son up to a certain level, and you are still at 3rd Dan or less (which will be the case because your son can technically become a 1st Dan before you get to 4th Dan), then you will have to go to another Instructor/Master to have your son tested and certified.
Again, everything depends on what you want to do. If certifications mean nothing to you, then I say teaching your son is the right thing to do. If you care about certifications, then I would work with another instructor (of if you are training, with your Master) who will guide you through the process and help you certify and test. What you don't want is to do things on your own, eventually move your son to a school because you can't certify him and then that Master moves him down a belt or pushes back his certification because you didn't learn that Master's style and/or go through his system.
I am kind of dealing with this now. We moved and I put my son into a new WTF school. His new instructor kept pushing off his 2nd Dan test because he stated that my son had to "catch up". Believe me, he wasn't behind, but it was because my son was new and the new Master didn't know him very well nor did he know about his prior training. I have heard many stories where people were close to black belt, moved schools and the new Master moved that student down a few belts because he didn't know that schools style.
Again, everything depends on what you want to do. If certifications mean nothing to you, then I say teaching your son is the right thing to do. If you care about certifications, then I would work with another instructor (of if you are training, with your Master) who will guide you through the process and help you certify and test. What you don't want is to do things on your own, eventually move your son to a school because you can't certify him and then that Master moves him down a belt or pushes back his certification because you didn't learn that Master's style and/or go through his system.
I am kind of dealing with this now. We moved and I put my son into a new WTF school. His new instructor kept pushing off his 2nd Dan test because he stated that my son had to "catch up". Believe me, he wasn't behind, but it was because my son was new and the new Master didn't know him very well nor did he know about his prior training. I have heard many stories where people were close to black belt, moved schools and the new Master moved that student down a few belts because he didn't know that schools style.
Gwai Lo Dan
3rd Black Belt
I moved and checked out a club as a red belt. The KJN said (without seeing me train) that I would not be able to test for a red stripe belt for 1 year.
I asked whether that was to learn the school's material, like 1 step sparring, and whether ability would be a factor. The answer was that ability was not a factor; he simply would not test anyone he didn't know was of good character and that would take 1 year to find out. A year for 1 belt seems excessive to me, when white to black is 3 years, but "his house, his rules" I suppose.
Gwai Lo Dan
3rd Black Belt
I would suggest forgetting about colour belts. Teach your son the core material of taegueks 1-8, sparring, kicking, and board breaking. When he is better than average at this core (i.e., KKW testing) material, see a Master to test him for black belt.
I don't see a reason to deprive your son of the positive feedback of belt promotion. It would be appropriate to find another senior practitioner to advise and even test as he approaches your level of skill. If he desires to continue and ultimately surpasses you, you will need to have a mechanism to pass him on to another instructor anyway.
Rumy, you left out the age of your son, his current time in grade for his current status and your current organization affiliation. In most martial arts you usually can only promote up to 1 rank behind yourself. If your not affiliated to anyone then you can do whatever you please but if you want it recognized by a major organization then you need to follow their rules. Heres the Kukkiwon:
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp
Looking at the time in grade, some of Americas TKD schools don't qualify for Kukkiwon ranking considering young black belts and giving a BB in a short periods of time. I say this because I once trained in TKD school which told me it took 2 years to BB but sometimes 18 months but no sooner. I was only there 6 months and during that time a student jumped from yellow belt to red belt. Yes it was a McDojo. It was way back probably before the term even existed.
If you are affiliated, maybe all you need to do is let them do the testing to make it official.[TABLE="width: 580"]
[TR]
[TD]1. Time and Age Limits
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]
[TABLE="width: 560"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 96, bgcolor: #E4EDDA, align: center"]Poom/Dan
[/TD]
[TD="width: 164, bgcolor: #E4EDDA, align: center"]Minimum Time Required for Promotion
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #E4EDDA, colspan: 2, align: center"]Age Limits for Promotion
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 125, bgcolor: #E4EDDA, align: center"]Start from Dan
[/TD]
[TD="width: 146, bgcolor: #E4EDDA, align: center"]Start from Poom
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]1st Poom
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]N A
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]N A
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]Less than 15 Years Old
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]1st to 2nd Pom
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]1 year
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]N A
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]15 ?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]2nd to 3rd Poom
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]2 year
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]N A
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]15 ?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]3rd to 4th Poom
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]3 year
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]N A
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"] 18 ?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]1st Dan
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]N A
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]15years and above
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: center"]N A
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Gwai Lo Dan
3rd Black Belt
If he sees it as positive feedback, then I would agree with you.
"To a hammer, everything is a nail". Also, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". Putting those 2 expressions together, I personally don't value belts but skills, and I tend to extrapolate that to other people perhaps more than I should.
So again, if the son feels belts are important, then sure, test for them.
I have been the in martial arts for more than 15 years. I could have gone up in rank eons ago, but was against paying for things that I thought unnecessary, and frankly I still am. My son was enrolled in a school that basically doles out new ranks every month. Yes, the kids are testing every month. My wife (she studied Judo) and I decided that our son was not going to do a test every month, despite the school's wishes. He was not really learning well. Since his contract is up and he continues to like TKD, I thought that I would teach him. I want to reward progress but I want him to enjoy the experience. Learn to execute things properly.
I really don't value belts, per se, much either. I could have been higher "rank" years ago. However, I wanted to develop as a martial artist in ways that "paying for the next belt" would not really connect with. I am glad I learned what I did from WTF TKD and from HKD. I can teach all the poomse, how to Olympic style spar, but also how to do real self defense, falling/rolling, good stretching, and positivity. My son is seven, so having some small rewards can help him focus. However, I want him to learn to enjoy the journey of learning and growing. That's why I took him out of a commercial WTF TKD school.
When an organization only requires 6 years to go from 1st Dan to 4th Dan that's not very surprising.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
Exactly, in Kukkiwon terms a 1-3rd Dan is only a trainee and not an instructor yet. In Korea that doesn't happen until they get their 4th Dan and have sat the instructor course at the Kukkiwon.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
I don't think it's as simple as it sounds.
As an example - I've had two students join me from two other clubs, one is a red belt and the other is a 1st Dan. The red belt is from ITF, so while she joined about a year ago, she isn't ready to test for black stripe yet as she doesn't know all the patterns and still has quite a few differences between her ITF style and the Kukkiwon style we practice. Her previous club (and parents) may have considered her very good, but she's not ready for grading here yet.
You may be thinking, that's fair enough, she came from ITF. But the 1st Dan came from a Moodukkwan school, technically she knows the Kukkiwon poomsae and kicks. However, her instructor seems to be doing things the way his instructor was taught, who passed down his instructor was taught, all the way back to the 1950s. None of the links in the chain seem to have kept up to date with current standards. I'm willing to concede that her husband/parents/previous-instructor/whoever thought she was great, and maybe she's accurately mirrored what she has been shown - but it's not good enough compared to current Kukkiwon standards for me to recommend her for promotion yet.
So, I'm sure you think your son is great, but maybe the instructor is looking for something different that your son isn't showing. Maybe you are missing subtleties in the movements that make him not ready (for example a bent back leg in long stance, or too wide stances). I'm not saying it is that, I'm just presenting the other viewpoint - ascertaining someone's quality depends on what standard you are holding it to.
