Is your martial art outdated?

[GouRonin]

Is your martial arts still effective? Has it become something else than what it was intended for? Is it now a sport and not a self-defence? What makes it effective or not and could it still be effective with modification?

 

[GouRonin]

Would your art having gun techniques be an indicator that it's progressive?

 

[fist of fury]

No we've downloaded all the latest service patches and service packs for our system so we're pretty up to date

 

[GouRonin]

Some martial arts are like a virus...

 

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by GouRonin

Some martial arts are like a virus...

LOL yes there are arts like that

Seriously our art is taught with modern combat in mind the dangers of the modern world are addressed with common sense answers and tactics. I don't think that having gun techniques is necessary with gun laws and criminals most of the time have more rights than thier victims. Using a gun in self defense can be very risky, but if your M.A teaches traditional weapons and shows you how to incoporate those techs using improvised weapons e.g a rolled news paper,poo cue,etc... to defend yourself I think that would be beneficial.

 

[sweeper]

gun technique would be good if every person who practiced it used a gun.

the most evolution I can see is more of an emphasis on what will put you in prison and judgement calls on effectiveness vs legality of the force applied. you get tactical shifts like punching the neck instead of the face to avoid major bruising and blood.

 

[chufeng]

Yes, I'm sure it is out-dated...

Just call me an old fuddy duddy...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Bob Hubbard]

the existance of gun defences are no indicator of usefulness. I recently challenged an entire school of Kenpo black belts to a simple test. All they have to do is dodge the initial shot. Idea is, start the technique, and I fire the gun. Stop before taking off my head.

So far, no takers.... either they dont trust their techniques, or they dont trust their training. All I asked them to do was show me "Broken Rod".

Did I mention, I'd be using a Paintball pistol at 300ftpersec rating. Leaves a nice big painful welt when fired point blank.

Seriously, I think every art has its gaps, but they also all have skills and concepts that are applicable today. Maybe not in a combat situation, but in an improv street defence situation. Just make sure you train with someone who can help you bridge the gap from the 16th century to the 21st. :asian:

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by GouRonin

Is your martial arts still effective? Has it become something else than what it was intended for? Is it now a sport and not a self-defence? What makes it effective or not and could it still be effective with modification?

Sh.. to many question...can't handle it....:erg:
Mental break down..........

Bbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

/Yari

 

[hand2handCombat]

how in the world can an art be outdated?
u dont take things out of an art but add to it.

gimme an example of a way to outdate an art. unless we mutate and have 4 arms, then it will be ineffective

 

[Master of Blades]

Hand2Hands got a point there people..........:asian:

 

[Baoquan]

Couldn't agree more. We are still basically the same shape and have the same physical properties that those who "invented" whichever style we might study possessed. H2H itself doesn't change, just our perception of it.


Gun techniques? These are indicative of "modern" systems, but like knife disarms, are not something i'd really like to have to try in actual combat. Try knife disarms with your opponent holding a magic marker, and you wearing a white shirt....it brings home the reality of playing with knives real quick.

Kaith's paintball disarm sounds like it'd do the same for playing with guns.

[Before anyone jumps up and down telling me that disarms are feasible - i agree, they are. They're just REALLY hard, and i wouldn't like to bet on them.]

Cheers

Baoquan.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat

how in the world can an art be outdated?
u dont take things out of an art but add to it.

Lots of Japanese arts--iaido, kyudo, naginatado--are being "preserved" and could not be considered practical, effective self-defense.

I think most martial arts were good when they were developed for what they were developed for, but an art for fighting in wooden armor against an opponent who has a samurai sword is of questionable value today. I loved iaido when I practiced it--the "outdated" nature of it was part of its aesthetic, artistic appeal.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Baoquan made some valid points. I had a discussion tonite with my old Kenpo instructor on this...we were discussing gun disarms along with 1 of his senior students. The instructor agreed with me that you have to really move fast and surprise the opponent, else you'll really hurt...and that training with a paintball gun was a good idea.... immediate feedback, yet managable.

His student is one of those 'ill just move like lightning and be too fast' guys...I said 'then take the test'. he declined.

 

[chufeng]

Kaith,

Quite frankly, I am shocked that you are getting no takers.

If I had that opportunity, I would jump at it (really).

...and the thing is, I might get hit the first 20 or so times...but, when I finally figured it out...then you'd be on the receiving end.

Paint-ball...I never thought of it as a training device before...thanks.

Better to be bruised and hurting in practice, than bleeding and dying on the street.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Baoquan]

Lots of Japanese arts--iaido, kyudo, naginatado--are being "preserved" and could not be considered practical, effective self-defense.

Very true...but is anyone training those arts as self-defense? I used to fence (epee mostly) and gave it up because it was screwing up my H2H MA footwork....and it wasn't really an effective form of SD. I never even owned a real sword, let alone carried one....

That being said, i started out in MA as a boxer, and boxing is something i train seriously, but don't really consider a truly effective form of "self-defense". It's too focused, and very much a sport, and in that respect, it IS outdated. I don't consider it a complete system..but its a hell of a stand-up art.

Can a hand-to-hand martial art that trains AS a combat art, not a sport, be outdated? I cant think of how, but my knowledge is admittedly very limited....



:asian:

Baoquan.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

If ya use a paintball gun as a training aid, spend the $80 or so bucks and get a good chrono so you can check the speed. Dial it down to 200 fps. (pistols around $150, but ya might find one used cheeper)

Actually....combining this with a RedMan suit might be interesting....hmmm

Have fun! (and 1 important rule...when training with a paintball gun, make certain that -everyone- is wearing proper eye protection...these things will blow an eye out if used wrong.)


:asian:

 

[Dronak]

I think quite a few of my recent posts have been of the "I'm not sure, but let me speculate or comment anyway" type. Here's another. I don't know about whether or not the MA I'm studying is outdated. In the sense of do people still use the kinds of weapons in the art, I guess it would be outdated. You don't see people walking around with broadswords and such nowadays. But you do have the improvised weapon thing. Our teacher mentioned that you could handle an umbrella using the same techniques we're learning for a broadsword. Things like pool cues could work in ways like a staff or spear, I suppose. So it's not like the things we learn have absolutely no relevance today. But the other replies also had a point about not being outdated as long as it's still useful.

The gun training thing is a good idea, Kaith. As chufeng put it, "better to be bruised and hurting in practice, than bleeding and dying on the street." A paintball gun would certainly be effective in providing immediate feedback and the bruises you got from being hit would heal up in time. It's kind of interesting that if people really believe that their gun disarming techniques work that they won't try them out with you. I suppose it does say something, but I'll leave the interpretation up to you. As for disarming techniques in general, I don't know enough to say how useful they are. We did one in class on Tuesday, one way of disarming someone with a broadsword. It works in slow motion. I think the trick to making them work is being fast and accurate. Grabbing seems like it would be pretty hard to do at full speed, but if you can do it, they'll work.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Baoquan

Can a hand-to-hand martial art that trains AS a combat art, not a sport, be outdated? I cant think of how, but my knowledge is admittedly very limited....

It depends on what is meant by "outdated". Some arts trained for scenarios which are now unlikely--styles of jujutsu intended purely as an adjunct for a samurai who has lost his weapon or else is locked up sword-to-sword and needs an edge, which assume wooden armor and that the most important thing in any fight is keeping your opponent from getting his right hand to his left hip (where his sword is). Anything that emphasizes fighting from seiza also represents an unlikely scenario in the U.S. Sure, it could be modified, but as it stands how likely to be useful is it. These are combat (sub)styles of jujitsu that practice combat--not sport--techniques for a style of combat that has faded. Heck, some people practice "real" fencing for dueling--which I would not characterize as a sport, exactly--and plenty of Filipino stylists still prepare for stick duels in their training, which was a very realistic "sport". There are non-sport versions of kendo--kenjutsu--that seem unlikely to be useful in the moern world.

In a lot of ways though I agree that these arts aren't outdated in any other sense than the scenarios are unlikely; the arts themselves represent valid techniques for (now) uncommon circumstances.

 

[Baoquan]

[Baoquan performs deep, respectful bow]

Again, i defer to superior knowledge.



Bao.