Is there a point to learning how to knife fight?

[Chris Parker]

Oh for crying out loud....

Life is not a movie.

 

[Cyriacus]

Okay.

Sorry if it seems exaggerated; if a knife has been pulled, than hasn't the fight been, and our survival?

If someone pulls a knife on me I am making assumptions. They either want to kill me or not. I don't put an in-between as an option. Not concerning my safety.

Okay.

Knives, to me, are the deadliest weapon.

Okay.

Because I've found I can combine their use with virtually any movement I can do in martial arts, which tells me I should always be wary.

(Thanks google image search)

If I can do a reverse axe-kick cleanly, followed by a reverse hook with the blade pressed against my forearm, and flip the blade to face you and begin 360 slashing in a silat based motion- there's a real problem for anyone unarmed. And that butterfly motion is easy to maintain and overwhelm anyone with.

(Thanks, google image search)

Hell, out of stupidity I've done jump side-kicks, double front kicks with knives and katana. For the hell of it, it's doable, and I believe that any jackass holding a knife, is dangerous and potentially lethal.

Doable, and a total waste of everything conceivable, from time, to effort, to your life.

I have never once been lacerated by my own knife, save for one very minor, and embaressing accident at a summer camp in my yonder youth, with a plastic serated butter knife.

Okay.

If you treat your knife like a gun, and keep the dangerous parts of it aimed apart from you, you will never receive injury.

Okay.

And ah, to whoever said its not possible to do 6 punches in a second, holy crap are you in for a surprise when you meet the community who actually can. Don't ever assume the impossible in martial arts. Some people have cards up their sleeves you wouldn't believe.

Yeah, except just about anyone can throw six punches per second, give or take 1-2. There is no 'community that can', anyone can do it. The punches are gonna be rubbish, but theyll do fine. Your body being dosed up on chemicals helps a bunch.

How to knife 'fight' no. Either avoid the fight or bring a gun.

Neither of which are remotely useful techniques in this case.

Knowing what to do if a knife is pulled on you, is another thing. That is effective.

Okay.

They can be applied with any martial art, and are among the easiest weapons to conceal. And to learn to use.

No. You can hide boots in plain sight. Then theres sap gloves, kubotans, rings, cord worn as a necklace... The list goes on.

The ah, one 'knife fight' I got into went along the lines of this. Two confronted me, first punched me, next thing I know there's a very visible gleam coming at me. I backed up, had a small piece of elbow knicked off, and then was able to hit the back of his hand as he was overextended and knee the base of the bottom of the wrist. I got to the knife first, confrontation was over. I was 13, they were around same age.

In my experience, knowing how to disarm a knife was life-saving. But to be honest, the technique I ended up using to disarm it was not the one I had been rotely taught.

Knife attacks are a bit like all attacks- they come when your normally least expect them. Problem is with knives, you might be against someone whos not only attacking you, but waiting for you to combatively react, then pull their concealed weapon.

I train with a knife and my real goal for being able to punch 6 times in a second is not just for the punch, but so I could lacerate the other that many times. But is that realistic? At all? No. And I'd be a sociopath if I ever employed it, even in self-defense.

That hardly sounded like an attack, at all. Those guys sucked. Ive seen ten year olds attack with more ferocity than what youre describing.

"I have been in simulated knife fights with fellow martial artists, marines, rangers, and Silat and escrimadors. With people who had never tactically held a knife before. No matter how good you get with knives, if someone wants to cut you and knows what they are doing, you will probably be cut very badly, or fatally."

Okay.

"A real knife attack isnt normally just a clumsy swing or stab or icepick. Its usually stab, then stabstabstabstabstabstab anywhere they can. And that is extremely hard to defend against, let along disarm."

Okay.

"Rule of thumb I was taught; If they hold the knife by the tang facing forward, that is most preferable. This means they are likely as scared of the knife as you are, which is an advantage, for anytime you place yourself in a way that the weapon may point at them, they may get confused, panic, or fumble. Your chances of giving cut are about 50%. (I'm pretty sure my teacher pulled the statistic out of his ***, but I think it was more about making a point than the numbers)"

(Thanks google image search)

If the knife is reversed, with blade facing down, this means it is someone comfortable with the knife, and chances are trained. Your chances of being cut raise to 70%-100%.

It means they grabbed their knife, and thats how it was in their hand when they grabbed it. Nothing more.

"If the blade is held in the what I call 'insano-grip' where the blade is held down, but the blade is facing toward the attacker, this means they are extremely trained, and have no fear of the knife. Additionally, there will be no way to actually block directly. I would not advise engaging anyone holding a knife, but if they are holding it this way, run."

It means they grabbed their knife, and thats how it was in their hand when they grabbed it. Nothing more.

And ah, dont forget just cause a knife has a blade, doesn't mean you HAVE to use it. There is a pommel at the bottom for a reason, and if you ever do get in a confrontation like that, I'd give using the blunt part and knocking them out, than anything else.

Riiight. Except, the law doesnt care, and you need to get the thing out first.

 

[lklawson]

And ah, to whoever said its not possible to do 6 punches in a second, holy crap are you in for a surprise when you meet the community who actually can. Don't ever assume the impossible in martial arts. Some people have cards up their sleeves you wouldn't believe.

You will have to pardon me if I find zero martial value in parlor tricks.

Six punches per second are less than useless as punches and slightly less usefull than one single thrust when holding a knife. I would LOVE for someone to try that speed punching idiocy on me while boxing and I would positively be ecstatic for some fool to try six super speed thrusts on me in knife fighting. I would laugh hysterically ...you know, after I killed him for trying such an unsound and stupid technique.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[lklawson]

Oh for crying out loud....

Life is not a movie.

It reads like Dux autobiography.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[Chris Parker]

See what I was saying, Kirk...?

Oh, and Alex? Know how many punches I throw in a second? One. You know why....?

 

[grumpywolfman]

Oh for crying out loud....

Life is not a movie.

Ok, smart guy. I see that the only way to end this argument is like REAL MEN DO: Broadway musical style, with light sabers, fancy dance moves to simulate a real fight, and the drama, lots of drama.

[video=youtube_share;9iauidn0pQ4]http://youtu.be/9iauidn0pQ4[/video]

 

[grumpywolfman]

:hmm: I'm starting to wonder if should rethink my decision of incorporating Dandelions in my daily diet?

 

[Aiki Lee]

I wouldn't go that far. Maybe 30% flat out wrong, 60% sometimes wrong/sometimes right/too many variables to say, and 10% more or less spot on.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

More like 90% then, it seems the 60% you give him is stuff he is broadly applying. Thus it's wrong to me. I agree with your responses to him though and see where you are coming from.

 

[lklawson]

More like 90% then, it seems the 60% you give him is stuff he is broadly applying. Thus it's wrong to me. I agree with your responses to him though and see where you are coming from.

Fair enough.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[cloud dancing]

left for 5 -1/2 days to die/Vietnam 69/after land mine blast. other serious **** PI 83
I always carry 2 or more knives. practise daily.adddicted to the blade. avoid ifights. but feels good to know/I have defense vs multiples or single attackers. never go outside w/o blade.
one straight razor folder and belt knife.also two pens. anyone saying I caint disable.or kill with simple bic pen is wrong,

 

[Jenna]

left for 5 -1/2 days to die/Vietnam 69/after land mine blast. other serious **** PI 83
I always carry 2 or more knives. practise daily.adddicted to the blade. avoid ifights. but feels good to know/I have defense vs multiples or single attackers. never go outside w/o blade.
one straight razor folder and belt knife.also two pens. anyone saying I caint disable.or kill with simple bic pen is wrong,

If you have access to either, when would you choose a pen over a blade? thank you x

 

[Danny T]

If you have access to either, when would you choose a pen over a blade? thank you x

What is the situation, Jenna?

 

[lklawson]

What is the situation, Jenna?

I propose two different events

1. I want to take a few notes
2. I want to divide a piece of rope and a sandwich

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Buka]

"Is there a point to learning how to knife fight?"

Yes. The training is very cutting edge.

 

[Jenna]

What is the situation, Jenna?

Danny in London I could only carry a non-locking knife w/less than 3in blade, every one has a pen though.. I am wondering for some one like that member cloud dancing who can carry both and seems to know how to use both defensively ie. "anyone saying I caint disable.or kill with simple bic pen is wrong", I wonder under what defensive circumstances would a pen be what you would reach for? Jx

 

[Danny T]

Danny in London I could only carry a non-locking knife w/less than 3in blade, every one has a pen though.. I am wondering for some one like that member cloud dancing who can carry both and seems to know how to use both defensively ie. "anyone saying I caint disable.or kill with simple bic pen is wrong", I wonder under what defensive circumstances would a pen be what you would reach for? Jx

The situation will always depict that action. (or should). Situational awareness and an egress plan.
For normal everyday I carry weapons... multiple... knives, tactical flashlight, firearm, flexible, tactical pen, common sense and good verbal skills. When flying I am down to a walking stick, tactical flashlight, my belt, a tactical pen, a wooden pencil, a 4 foot zip tie, my common sense and good verbal skills.
I have a force continuum that I have trained and practice using different scenarios.
Every situation is different and the response will be different. I do not go about looking for an excuse use them. I am prepared to leave and if unable to leave the situation I am prepared to defend myself and my love ones to the best of my ability.

Now my story is I'm a somewhat eccentric yet caring grandfather with some odd habits. And I'm sticking to that.

 

[lklawson]

Danny in London I could only carry a non-locking knife w/less than 3in blade, every one has a pen though.. I am wondering for some one like that member cloud dancing who can carry both and seems to know how to use both defensively ie. "anyone saying I caint disable.or kill with simple bic pen is wrong",

Of course you can use an improvised weapon as a weapon. People have been doing it since forever. The thing is, a knife is a tool which has been optimized for cutting and, usually, stabbing; two things which also tend to optimize it for use as a weapon (defense or offense). A pen, on the other hand, is a tool which has been optimized for writing. The vast majority of pens are only so-so at stabbing, and often just plain bad at it, and no pen that I've ever seen does a particularly good job at cutting. This makes it a less ideal choice for a self defense weapon when compared to an actual knife. Pens have the advantage of not looking like a weapon (because, you know, they're not) which can provide the element of surprise and they can be carried in places where knives are forbidden. Having a poor weapon is generally better than having no weapon at all. But a modern pen is simply never going to be as effective a tool at performing the jobs of a knife as an actual knife is. ...ever.

I wonder under what defensive circumstances would a pen be what you would reach for? Jx

When I didn't have a knife, gun, cane, club, slungshot, staff, sword, or some other tool which is actually a weapon.

A pen is better than bare hands, but only just so.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Rich Parsons]

Danny in London I could only carry a non-locking knife w/less than 3in blade, every one has a pen though.. I am wondering for some one like that member cloud dancing who can carry both and seems to know how to use both defensively ie. "anyone saying I caint disable.or kill with simple bic pen is wrong", I wonder under what defensive circumstances would a pen be what you would reach for? Jx

Jenna,

You are out for dinner and a drink. The young males a table next to you or over a couple start to get loud. No big deal. No they start to get pushy with other people around them. One can reach for the pen and have it in hand to draw pictures on your napkin, and if they attack you well it is just in your hand. Where as if you clear the blade in the restaurant, many will freak out and believe you have escalated the level of violence potential.

 

[geezer]

Jenna,

You are out for dinner and a drink. The young males a table next to you or over a couple start to get loud. No big deal. No they start to get pushy with other people around them. One can reach for the pen and have it in hand to draw pictures on your napkin, and if they attack you well it is just in your hand. Where as if you clear the blade in the restaurant, many will freak out and believe you have escalated the level of violence potential.

You're in a restaurant eating dinner? Seems like you might just as well have a steak knife in your hand. Or a heavy glass, a mug, bottle of wine... good lord, if you need weapons the only place better than the table is the kitchen!

 

[Jenna]

Since the thread had gone quiet 2013 I am not so worried about derailing it to ask you a bit more about the pen if it is ok?

@Danny T that is quite an arsenal for your edc.. I hope there is not cause for you to have to use it in future and but you sound like the right man to ask.. you had referred to a force continuum which is perfectly clear can you explain a bit more.. is that continuum flexible or situationally dependent or would the pen *always* be less preferred than say the knife if it came to protecting your self or kids or grand kids (you have grand kids really? ) Thank you Jx

And @lklawson, Kirk I appreciate your insights.. like you are saying the pen can have the element of surprise –I guess provided it is not an obvious tac pen- and is there where a knife is forbidden.. what I want to ask you is in a situation where you believe you may have to use a weapon and have only a pen to hand would you feel capable with that improvised weapon or compromised for lacking the efficiency of your blade? Like is the pen enough or do you feel ill equipped with it or would it really just depend on how and what you had trained? Hope this make some sense.. Thank you again Jx

And @Rich Parsons, Rich! It is great to have your thoughts, yes you are exactly right, this is what I mean about being seen to have caused a problem because I had a weapon rather than some thing I improvised.. this did happen before where I had carried a blade (only for appearance since I have no skill with it) and had been put in a situation where I had to take it out though I did not use it or even know what I intended to do except scare them.. they ended up calling the Met and I got stopped and cautioned before I had even reached home and so I do not want to be in a situation where it is like *I* am the bad guy even though I am minding my business.. hence the pen.. it is just a pen I know how to use it as yawara/kubotan and so now nobody can say nothing.. so my question is to you and the others who do use and can use blades is, would there be any occasion where you could equally deploy a pen or a blade where you would actually choose the pen.. why am I asking? because it could be that I am deluding my self about being able to defend my self with a dumb pen or improvised key whip or whatever.. hope I am making sense.. thank you Jx