Is the Reconstruction of Iraq Failing?

[hardheadjarhead]

On another thread I debated Kaith briefly over the situation in Iraq. He had cited several sources indicating that things were going well, and I listed more recent articles and reports stating that things were not all that they could be.

This morning the New York Times posted this on line:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/16/politics/16intel.html?pagewanted=1&th

The article details a National Intelligence Estimate that is quite gloomy. It also mentions that only $1 billion has been spent so far on reconstruction. House Republicans like Lugar and Hagel are pessimistic as to the outcome.


Baroness Amos reported this to the British Parlimant in January of 204:

"Baghdad's three sewage treatment plants serve approximately 80 per cent of the city's population. They are currently under repair by USAID, and are expected to be restored to full capacity by October 2004. Meanwhile, the majority of sewage from Baghdad's 3.8 million residents will remain untreated.

It is estimated that only 9 per cent of the urban population outside Baghdad is served by sewage systems. In Basra, sewage is currently not being treated. Rural areas and the north of Iraq largely have no piped sewerage systems.

The United Nations and World Bank have identified the following priority targets for sewerage 2004–07: raise sanitation coverage in urban areas by 10 per cent; prepare a comprehensive strategy for sanitation in rural areas; develop city master plans for the provision of water and sanitation services in 15 major cities; and, in the medium term, raise sanitation coverage by 30 per cent in both urban and rural areas.

From its recently agreed supplemental appropriation, the USA has allocated 675 million US dollars towards improving sewerage systems in Iraq. The initial focus will be on the cities of Baghdad, Basra, Erbil and Kula."

Anyone have anything pro or con concerning reconstruction?


Regards,


Steve

 

[michaeledward]

We are losing this war. It is Vietnam all over again. More and More cities are being declared 'No-Go Zones'. In these cities, elections will not be able to be held, or if they are held, they will not be able to be monitored for fairness and accuracy.

The Bush Administration is pushing for a 'Vietnamization' of the conflict; hurrying to train Iraqi's to do the dirty work.

Since we have returned 'Sovereignty' to the Iraqi's, 171 American Soldiers have died in Iraq.

What's more, as there is no individual leader within the insurgency movement, there is no one with which to negotiate. While it might be possible to ramp back up our military objectives, how will we know when whe have won.

It is ugly, and getting uglier. This article was especially depressing.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041004&s=greider

Mike

 

[Phoenix44]

According to the NY Times and Time Magazine, things in Iraq are getting MUCH worse.


http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,697589,00.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/16/politics/16intel.html

 

[Bob Hubbard]

It is a circular problem.

The Iraqis want peace, supplies*, and income.
(supplies defined as gas/food/electric/water/sanitation/etc)

The problem is, we can't move supplies and provide peace while we're being shot at.
You can't open shops while a war is going on.

Iraqis become angry and take up arms.

It is a self-defeating cycle.

The current plan is to focus on stabalyzing things so that those 'supplies' can then be created/moved/provided/fixed.


Side Note: since turning things over to the Iraqis, well over 500 Iraqi troops/police have also been killed. Syrians, Saudias and Iranians are a major part of those involved in the fighting, as are the minority Sunnis, and a few rebel factions such as the al Sadr.

How goes the reconstruction in the South, and in the Kurdish controled North, compared to the area around Baghdad?

 

[CanuckMA]

First off, Saddam was a brutal dictator. Then again, so are a lot of others.

America managed to turn a stable country into one with no infrastructure about to turn to all out civil war. Not enough troops were originally sent in, and there never was a clear exit strategy. It's no wonder America is hated so much. The average Iraqi under Saddam had a job in a country that worked. In comes the Americans to 'liberate' and all of a sudden, it's all gone to s**t.

 

[Makalakumu]

An Iraqi man told a reporter as he stood in the unemployment line, "Saddam is gone, but now we have his teachers to deal with!"

 

[lvwhitebir]

In many ways, the Iraqi's (at least the armed factions currently fighting) don't want peace. That's the problem. If they all worked with the reconstruction we could be done and out of there. Unfortunately, their desire is just to create havoc until we leave in frustration; then some other "strong arm" faction will fill in the void and another Saddam will be born.

They take hostages of people trying to help them by providing supplies. They kill their own police and interim government officials who are trying to give the nation back its stability and sovereignty. They burn oil pipelines and refineries that can be used to provide money and jobs to Iraqi citizens.

I don't think anyone would argue that what's happening is a rosy picture. But... what else can we do but move forward? I think we can agree that we can't just up and leave.

WhiteBirch

 

[PeachMonkey]

In many ways, the Iraqi's (at least the armed factions currently fighting) don't want peace. That's the problem. If they all worked with the reconstruction we could be done and out of there.

I think it's safe to say that nothing about American foreign policy in the Middle East, particularly when you consider neoconservative plans for the region, would lead the Iraqi people to believe that the US intends to simply leave after reconstruction.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think it's safe to say that nothing about American foreign policy in the Middle East, particularly when you consider neoconservative plans for the region, would lead the Iraqi people to believe that the US intends to simply leave after reconstruction.

I 100% agree with that statement. There are way to many insurgents for them to all be terrorists. And the general feeling in that area is that we are after their oil (among other things like creating a religious state). Honestly, I think that sentiment is true and I think it explains why they keep attacking the oil infrastructure being built with out tax dollars.

 

[loki09789]

It is still so early in the process that I can't really say whether this information is indication of "lose" or "win." During the American Rev, we 'lost' so much of the overall war but 'won' the war (even if you consider the 1812 war an extension of the battle) because here we are.

Things are definitely difficult, but I am not ready to say that the end is clearly written yet. Remember too that these are short term evaluations...

Regardless of sides or opinions, the Mid East region has a LOOOONGG history of fighting. I don't know if that will ever changle

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Some points to consider:
How long did it take the South to recover from the scorched earth policy of the North?
How long did it take Germany, Japan and Italy to recover after WW2?
How about France, England, Etc?

It takes time to rebuild after a war. More time if you are trying to do it while in a combat zone, which Iraq still is. One also needs to look at the country as a whole, not just the 'news bites' of a small area.

 

[Makalakumu]

Regardless of sides or opinions, the Mid East region has a LOOOONGG history of fighting. I don't know if that will ever changle

Well, the administration is planning to change that. One of the outcomes the neocons would like to accomplish with PNAC is the reformation of Islam. In my opinion, this is a very radical plan and I don't know how successful it will be. Act One was Afghanistan. Act two is Iraq. Act Three and Four of this Five Act Play, as they so name it, is Iran and Syria. If you look at a map, that strip of land goes from the mediterrainian to India.

Act Five?

upnorthkyosa

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Quick question: where would I find a copy, either online or otherwise, of the neocon's PNAC?

 

[loki09789]

Well, the administration is planning to change that. One of the outcomes the neocons would like to accomplish with PNAC is the reformation of Islam. In my opinion, this is a very radical plan and I don't know how successful it will be. Act One was Afghanistan. Act two is Iraq. Act Three and Four of this Five Act Play, as they so name it, is Iran and Syria. If you look at a map, that strip of land goes from the mediterrainian to India.

Act Five?

upnorthkyosa

I am cautious of terms like "of Islam" because that is religious persecution...and not targeting Islamic religious based governments/nations that are corrupting the spirit of religion for earthly manipulations.

Would it ultimately, in generations from now, be so bad if there was more stability in the Mid East. Of course the growing pains, change will cause pain - change always does, but wouldn't a stable political environment around that part of the country have a market impact on the crude oil market, national finances that are being funnelled toward Security and occupation operations intended to keep a finger on the pulse of the instability (I am not just thinking USA but other nations as well)?

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Would it ultimately, in generations from now, be so bad if there was more stability in the Mid East. Of course the growing pains, change will cause pain - change always does, but wouldn't a stable political environment around that part of the country have a market impact on the crude oil market, national finances that are being funnelled toward Security and occupation operations intended to keep a finger on the pulse of the instability (I am not just thinking USA but other nations as well)?

Well, all these would be great, but the concern is over the process by which this change is made. A series of military invasions of the area by the US and its coalition allies would certainly not be an acceptable means of bringing peace to the area. It would be like cutting down crime drastically in US cities by using the military and/or police to enforce early curfews; great benefit provided, but the cost in liberties and autonomy would be too much.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Quick question: where would I find a copy, either online or otherwise, of the neocon's PNAC?

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

I'll try and find a copy of an illuminating Esquire article (which argues in favor of PNAC) too.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Esquire article, posted on the Navy War College's site:

http://www.nwc.navy.mil/newrulesets/ThePentagonsNewMap.htm

 

[Makalakumu]

Would it ultimately, in generations from now, be so bad if there was more stability in the Mid East. Of course the growing pains, change will cause pain - change always does, but wouldn't a stable political environment around that part of the country have a market impact on the crude oil market, national finances that are being funnelled toward Security and occupation operations intended to keep a finger on the pulse of the instability (I am not just thinking USA but other nations as well)?

Yeah. In some ways, it makes sense. I don't think we have the national treasure to accomplish this goal, though. I also have a problem with the general level of violence that will ensue over the economic interests of the middle east. Oil need not be the driving force of our foriegn policy. Current research in fuel cells has advanced so far that Germany uses them in 25% of its private sector. And this is growing. You should see some of things that the University of MN is working on! Fuel cells in which you could run your automobile on ethanol. That is amazing technology...and here we are spending all of this money and lives because the powerful oil interests are in power...

It's really sad, in my opinion.

upnorthkyosa

 

[michaeledward]

... but wouldn't a stable political environment around that part of the country (world) have a market impact on the crude oil market,

I assume you meant world in your quote ....

But, as I recall, we had a stable political environment in that part of the world under Saddam Hussein; very similar to the stable political environment that exists in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, United Arab Emerites, Quattar.

The United States has always favored stability over democracy around the world, with the possible exception of Cuba.

 

[Flatlander]

Some points to consider:
How long did it take the South to recover from the scorched earth policy of the North?
How long did it take Germany, Japan and Italy to recover after WW2?
How about France, England, Etc?

It takes time to rebuild after a war. More time if you are trying to do it while in a combat zone, which Iraq still is. One also needs to look at the country as a whole, not just the 'news bites' of a small area.

Good point. For a more recent examole, Kosovo is still a mess.