And just HOW is the war going?

hardheadjarhead

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Freedom is on the march!

Iraqi Public Opinion

** Only 33 percent of Iraqis think they're better off now than before the war, as a Gallup poll discovered.

** Just 36 percent believe the interim government shares their values.

** 94 percent say Baghdad is more dangerous than it was before the war.

** 66.6 believe the US occupation could start a civil war.

** 80 percent want the US to leave directly after the January elections.

What else?

** 400,000 Iraqi children suffer from chronic diarrhea and dangerous deficiencies of protein, according to a UN development report. Iraq's child malnutrition rate now roughly equals that of Burundi--a war-torn central African nation--and is far above both Uganda and Haiti.

** 60 percent of rural residents and 20 percent of urban dwellers have access to nothing but contaminated drinking water.

** Hepatitis outbreaks have doubled since the war began.

**Murder, rape, and kidnapping have skyrocketed since March 2003, forcing Iraqi children to stay home from school and women to stay off the streets at night. Violent deaths rose from an average of 14 per month in 2002 to 357 per month in 2003.

**The New England Journal of Medicine reported in July 2004 that 1 in 6 soldiers returning from war in Iraq showed signs of post-traumatic stress disorder, major depression, or severe anxiety. Only 23 to 40 percent of respondents in the study who showed signs of a mental disorder had sought mental health care.

** One hundred and six US soldiers died in November, making the not-yet-completed month the deadliest since April's 135 deaths. Forty-one Americans died and 425 were wounded in the battle for Falluja, raising total US killed to 1,227.

** Iraqi civilian casualties range from 15,000-100,000. John Hopkins University estimates the figure at over 40,000 with 90 percent certainty.

** According to military statistics, the number of insurgents has quadrupled since last year, from 5,000 to 20,000. A British general places the insurgency at 40-50,000 fighters.

** A confidential Marine report predicted that the insurgency would continue to grow in the run-up to the January 30 election. According to director of reconstruction William Taylor, security "is worse today than it was, and we are having greater difficulties" compared to six weeks ago in cities such as Bagdhad, Falluja, Ramadi, Samarra and Mosul.

** The US has trained only 145,000 of the 270,000 Iraqi security forces needed to establish order for the upcoming elections.

** The Iraqi police has only 41 percent of the weapons, 25 percent of the vehicles, and 31 percent of the body armor identified as necessary by US forces.

** Of the $18.4 billion in reconstruction funds allocated last year by Congress, the US has spent only $1.7 billion.

** Nationwide electricity levels are down 25 percent since the prewar days, and 66 percent lower in Baghdad.

**Non-Iraqi Contractor Deaths Have Also Been Highest During the "Transition": There has also been a huge increase in the average monthly deaths of U.S. and other non-Iraqi contractors since the "transition." On average, 17.5 contractors have died each month since the June 28 "transition," versus 7.6 contractor deaths per month during the previous 14 months of occupation.

**As of September 22, 2004, there has been an estimated 154 civilian contractors, missionaries, and civilian worker deaths since May 1, 2004. Of these, 52 have been identified as Americans. Journalist Deaths: Forty-four international media workers have been killed in Iraq as of September 22, 2004, including 33 since President Bush declared the end of combat operations. Eight of the dead worked for U.S. companies.

**A March 2004 army survey found 52 percent of soldiers reporting low morale, and three-fourths reporting they were poorly led by their officers. Lack of equipment has been an ongoing problem. The Army did not fully equip soldiers with bullet-proof vests until June 2004, forcing many families to purchase them out of their own pockets.


Sources

http://icasualties.org/oif/

http://www.ips-dc.org/iraq/failedtransition/index.htm

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/outrage?pid=2028


Regards,


Steve
 

GAB

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Hi Steve,

A lot of information there, thanks for sharing.

This is not a war, it is a media blitz.

Regards, Gary
 

Rynocerous

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GAB said:
Hi Steve,

A lot of information there, thanks for sharing.

This is not a war, it is a media blitz.

Regards, Gary
:confused:

I agree the media does get on my nerves to, but to say this isn't a war is just not acurate. I didn't lose friends just to hear someone say this isn't a war. If this isn't a war then what is it? Really?

Rynocerous
 

loki09789

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Technically, this is the rebuilding/stabilization phase for the sake of political discussion. Given the nature of the daily experience for the troops I still refer to it as a war.

The problem with the stats that are presented is the accuracy of the 'before' stats that the 'after' stats are being held up to in this case.

Honestly, under SHussein, how much of this crime rate, humanitarian concern/health issues....stuff was being accurately and honestly tracked in a valid way? They guy dooped the entire first world about the time/possession of WMD's and he isn't going to play with numbers that make his leadership look good?

I don't know what the rules of engagement are now, but I know from being in Bosnia that we were not allowed to interfere with local law enforcement and other issues. The same issues that affected military operations in Somalia and other 'Stabilization' efforts...

Now, the question is do we really do the 'marshal law' thing and take charge - risking being accused of an empire builder? Or, do we leave these people to deal with the details of reconstructing their nation and get accused of being negligent and unsympathetic?

It can't be both ways....but either way the media will spin it to sell.
 
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hardheadjarhead

hardheadjarhead

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GAB said:
Hi Steve,

A lot of information there, thanks for sharing.

This is not a war, it is a media blitz.

Regards, Gary


Gary,

As the data I provided shows, it is really very much a war.

What saddens me is how people put "Support our troops" bumper stickers on their cars, the yellow ribbons and all...and they likely can't tell you how many have died in the last month. Some of them, I wager, would have trouble finding Iraq on a map.


Regards,


Steve
 
M

MisterMike

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I wonder when it began, that you had to be among the intellectual elite to support the troops, and then only when your political party says it's OK?
 

bignick

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I beleive HHJH was referring more to shallow displays by people that put on the sticker or the magnet just so other people will know, "Hey, I support the troops"...just slap it on and there, you've done your part. Certainly, the stickers and signs and magnets serve as a reminder, but how long can you actually go now without thinking about the situation in Iraq and across the globe. And who said you needed to be among the "intellectual elite", however you determine that, to support the men and women overseas and at home serving their country.

and as far as the number of casualties...we're at 133 in November the last time I checked, the all time record being 133 in a month...
 
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MisterMike

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Shallow displays of yellow ribbons? How do we know who is and isn't? Are there zogby polls for this? I dunno, to come up with the determination that there are enough people out there that this warrants even mentioning just sounds like there is some underlying political motivation - You don't here theis about the gay pride and AIDS ribbons. But throw on a yellow one and you must be some Bush loving redneck with an IQ of 20.

It's a shame.
 

bignick

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MisterMike said:
Shallow displays of yellow ribbons? How do we know who is and isn't? Are there zogby polls for this? I dunno, to come up with the determination that there are enough people out there that this warrants even mentioning just sounds like there is some underlying political motivation - You don't here theis about the gay pride and AIDS ribbons. But throw on a yellow one and you must be some Bush loving redneck with an IQ of 20.

It's a shame.
The reason that you didn't hear it about the gay pride, AIDS, breast cancer awareness ribbons, etc, etc...is because we weren't talking about them. They have nothing to do with this discussion. I was wondering, where, in my post or HHJH's did either of us bring up the connection between "Bush loving redneck" and the yellow ribbon? Or where in this thread is there any mention of any political party. The only references I can find are in your posts.
 

loki09789

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rmcrobertson said:
Personally, many of us had heard that Hussein was a murdering, torturing creep since about 1984. Where were you?
And he was the ruler of the nation. That means that any statistics/information or trends that he would allow to go public are questionable as 'before' information to make a valid comparison/contrast discussion.

I was talking about information validity coming from a known corrupt, murdering torturer, what were you implying with that comment?:) Tag, your it!
 
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hardheadjarhead

hardheadjarhead

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Mike likes red herring, Nick. It adds Omega-3 fatty acids to his diet and keeps him "heart healthy" and possessed of clear skin and bright shining countenance.

He wrote "I wonder when it began, that you had to be among the intellectual elite to support the troops, and then only when your political party says it's OK?"

Let me turn that around a bit.

"I wonder when it began, that you had to be among the conservative right to support the troops, and then only when the Republican party says it's OK?"

My point here is that questioning the war is often met with staunch and angry responses of "support our troops!" I've heard this one, too, which dates back to the Vietnam era, "America! Love it or leave it!" Supporting our troops, it seems, requires that we keep them in harms way in a war many of us feel is unjustified and unwise.

And no, Mike...those "Support Our Troops" ribbons are on SUV's in my town, driven by soccer moms whose husbands are in the highest tax bracket. Hardly rednecks. When I talk to them about the war, though, their eyes almost cross. Sorta like Bush when he's required to give an extemporaneous answer to a challenging question.

Regards,


Steve
 

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raedyn

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Saying 'bring them home' can be a legit way to 'support our troops'.
 

loki09789

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hardheadjarhead said:
Sorta like Bush when he's required to give an extemporaneous answer to a challenging question.

Regards,


Steve
There is some value to being articulate without being extemporaneous or 'verbose/boorish' as well.
 
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MisterMike

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bignick said:
The reason that you didn't hear it about the gay pride, AIDS, breast cancer awareness ribbons, etc, etc...is because we weren't talking about them. They have nothing to do with this discussion.

Nor was the original post about yellow ribbons, not until post #7. I see that didn't upset you though. Hmm.

bignick said:
I was wondering, where, in my post or HHJH's did either of us bring up the connection between "Bush loving redneck" and the yellow ribbon? Or where in this thread is there any mention of any political party. The only references I can find are in your posts.

Well, to be accurate, I don't think I mentioned a specific party but did draw some conclusions upon other threads where Red/Blue states and IQ charts were posted. That combined with some outside sources stating most republicans are un/mis-informed annnnnd again back to post #7 which inferred that many could not read a map. Does that help?
 
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MisterMike

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hardheadjarhead said:
When I talk to them about the war, though, their eyes almost cross.

You know, I really have no reason to doubt you there.
 

michaeledward

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www.icasualties.org is reporting 133 U.S. fatalities in November. That's Bad.

www.icasualties.org is reporting 646 casualties from 10/27 - 11/23 that did not return to duty. That's Bad.

www.icasualties.org is reporting 530 casualties from 10/27 - 11/23 that did return to duty. That's not too bad.

Except, one of those, Travis R. Desiato of Massachusetts was apparently injured in early November, and then returned to duty, and was killed on 11/15. That's Bad.

More than 1000 US fatalities since the Commander-in-Chief of the United States Military challenged "Bring them On" to the dead-enders, or insurgents, or enemies of freedom.

More than 850 US fatalities since Saddam Hussein was taken into custody.

400 U.S. fatalities since Iraq 'Sovreignty' was restored to the Iraqi's. Soldiers dying in a foreign land, under foreign control.

New York Times said:
These days, the biggest risk may come from the small but growing contingent on the left that wants to bring our troops home now."
This small contingent on the left thinks the war is a disaster and getting to be a bigger disaster each day.
 
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