Is the "Old Way" gone?

[just2kicku]

It's just frustrating when the advance kids (pre teen and low teens) just don't want to hit each other. You try to tell them that they can't always give blows sometimes you gotta take blows. I don't try to injure the students I just want them to train "real". Will have to think about this one and figure out how to change it up.

Those days of my instructor grabbing you by the back of your head and yanking your head straight, telling you your stance looks like sh** have changed. (Excuse me but I'm tearing up Lol)

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Keep in mind that when the old ways were established centuries ago, kids were expected to fight in the militia by the time they were fourteen. Girls were having babies at a similar age, and people lived a more physically demanding lifestyle as compared to today.

In western society, people no longer fight for themselves. The police and army are expected to do it for them. In the US, the army is volunteer, so there isn't even an expectation that you'll need to be toughened up before basic.

Daniel

 

[jeff5]

I think with regards to training childern it's all but gone. As litigous as our society is and as crazy as some parents are you probably just can't risk it. The old days of training like we did in my initial art (TKD, more Tang Soo Do really, very hard), are probably gone. Lots of sparring, initially no pads, very hard physical conditioning, and a considerable amount of contact.

For adults it still exists, but it's hard to find, and usually in back yard, more informal, non-commercial groups.

I consider our group fairly "old school". Do we go out and beat the snot out of each other each session? Of course not. But during the course of training applications and drills we've all been punched in the face a time or two with bare knuckles. (okay maybe more...) In either performing or receving the techniques and applications there's a lot of hard, bodily contact that can be downright painful and leave you generally bruised. Combine this with the fact that lots of times we're outside or on concrete, training sessions can be pretty painful when your doing lots of throws, sweeps, take downs, etc.

The way we train is if you get hit on your entry or subsequent counter, keep going, don't stop. We also train some pain conditioning. This isn't to be sadists or "tough guys". It's to miminize the shock of contact and of getting hit and to learn that you can take a degree of pain and that there's a difference between pain and getting truly injured.

So the old way isn't gone, it's just not for mass consumption =)).

 

[just2kicku]

Keep in mind that when the old ways were established centuries ago, kids were expected to fight in the militia by the time they were fourteen. Girls were having babies at a similar age, and people lived a more physically demanding lifestyle as compared to today.

In western society, people no longer fight for themselves. The police and army are expected to do it for them. In the US, the army is volunteer, so there isn't even an expectation that you'll need to be toughened up before basic.

Daniel

And there in lies the problem. Western society as a whole has become soft. I was watching something on Discovery about the kids in China that work out, they bust hump, they train hard, hours a day and not one complaint that I saw. No kid cried cause his legs hurt, no one moaned for having to do pushups. They do this for 8 or so hours a day. I'm just asking for one hour, give me all you've got. In this day and age where everything is too easy, it's just hard to get my point across to them. Train as you fight doesn't work for everyone. Maybe one day that lite in there mind will go off and they'll say. "Oh, I get it"

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If the kids are training eight hours a day, then they must be shaolin monks, because regular kids go to school and cannot train for eight hours a day, even in China.

And honestly, I have no problem with kids being given a hard work out. When I teach class, I make them work very hard. I just make sure that no blood is drawn.

Daniel

 

[Uchinanchu]

The 'old school' aka TMA are still alive and well...you just need to know where to look. The problem with these type of schools is that most of them do not advertise, so finding them can be difficult.
In my opinion, one of the reasons why so many of these schools (stateside) have 'disapeared' is because of the number of lawsuits that have occurred over the years. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't there a high number of instructors/schools in the 90s that were sued by "students" because of injuries incurred while training?
I personally knew some very good instructors who closed their doors to the public because of such incidences.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Like others on here have said over and over, there's a large difference between children and adults, and the ways that they need to be trained in certain areas.

Children need more of the psychological training than they do the physical training. That's not to say that they should stick to running an obstical course for an hour and not break a sweat. But I also don't think that kids, even if they're 10 years old to 14 years old, should be made to train in full contact situations. It's the same general rule for kids that age starting in weight lifting: their bodies are not devoloped enough yet to withstand the physical stress they would be putting on themselves.

If a kid...say, it's a boy, and he's 13...is sparring in class, I would fully expect him to have on no less than the headgear, chest protector, shin guards and mouthpiece. Now, he's a little more protected so that in case he does take a good shot, he's more able to withstand the punch or kick and can continue sparring. The goal for a kid that age when he's sparring shouldn't be to kick and puch his opponent full force, but rather to make enough contact against his opponent to let them know that they've been hit...but not a tapping hit, either...maybe about 60 - 75% force from a kid that age, as long as he's sparring someone around the same age and/or size.

The psychological training that I'm talking about is that kids need to understand that fighting is not a solution to a problem. The younger a kid is, the more raw their emotion is. Kids, from toddlers up to young adults (i.e. teenagers) don't have full control over their emotions yet. As a result, anger and fear can carry over into physical aggression...(I know it sounds like a "you don't know the power of the dark side" kind of thing, but hear me out). That's how kids work alot of things out...by fighting one another. It's a natural thing...not a good thing, but a natural thing. That's also why kids aren't fighting for their lives against one another...they're fighting because they're kids.

The one other aspect to that is that I think kids should be trained on how to handle a situation if they're put into danger by an adult...i.e. an adult trying to kidnap them or trying to harm them in any way. But this training doesn't have to involve busting a kid's nose to make sure they get the point. Teach them how to strike vital areas hard, how to scream for help, how to know when to start running, what to look for...things like that.

With adults, they need less psychological training and more physical training...most of the time, anyway. An adult's body is fully devoloped, and can withstand far more punishment than a child's body can. However, I still don't think that adults necessarily need to limp away from every class either. What good is training them if they can't come to the next class because they're always injured from going to class?

Now, don't misunderstand me. I'm a huge fan of how training was handled in the "old days". I started training at close to the end of the "old-school" training era, and was very fond of the training I received. I started when I was 12, and earned my 1st dan at 16.

I had my share of bumps, bruises, cuts, knots, sprains, over-extensions, bloodied lips, busted nose, busted knuckles, sore muscles...but the hard training wasn't just dumped on me in regards to rank. It should also be noted that I was big for my age, and always was growing up...so once I hit 13, I was put in the adult class and treated as an adult. There were other kids who started at the same time I did, that were a couple of years older than I was, but they were smaller than me. They weren't allowed to come to the adult class until they were around 16 or 17, when they had grown to a point that they could handle training as an adult.

Another example:

A friend of mine who was one of the adults that I used to train with opened a school some years ago in a neighboring town. He was qualified by our instructor to open the school, and seemed to be a fairly good instructor in his own right...as far as adults went. He would even admit that he wasn't sure how exactly to train the younger kids, because he was so used to hard training, that that was all he knew.

I remember that he got into it with a few parents when their kids went home with bloody noses after sparring class...it wasn't too long after that the parents starting pulling their kids out of the class, and he was forced to close the school.

He wasn't intentionally trying to hurt the kids, or have them hurt eachother. He just didn't understand how to train kids. Eventually, he ended up marrying a lady that he met through training that was also a blackbelt, and has since opened up a school in which she teaches the young kids, and he instructs the young adults to adults. Last I heard, they were doing pretty well. It just took some time go get the correct formula to be able to teach and be effective.

So, after reading the novella up there, the thing I hope the OP would get out of this is to recognize what kids need to train in general, and then work with training the kids with their individual needs. I'm not saying that the kids should be treated like China Dolls so they don't come home to Mommy and Daddy with their "fragile little feelings" hurt. But there is a pretty big difference between giving them McDojo training and banging them up.

It sounds like the OP, much like SteveBJJ suggested, would be more suited to teaching adults, and allow the kids to be instructed by someone who is used to teaching kids...and then learn from that person how to get the best results. It's ok to admit that you don't know how to train someone...and it's far better to admit it now than to train someone the wrong way over a period of time.

 

[just2kicku]

Well said, I have already talked to my instructor about switching up classes and "helping" with the advanced kids. I sure do appreciate all the responds that keep coming tho.
By the time I was 12 I had fractured my ribs twice, bruised my shoulder blade and had a concussion. Oh what good times Lol.
Like your friend I have had my run in with parents also. We got some tough advanced kids but like I said before the fire and heart can't be taught. When they spar, they're willing to bang it's just the rest of it they get lazy on. I will help and learn hopefully, forever a student!

And Daniel you're almost right. The kids are 10-14 and live in the monestary with the option of bcoming monks when they turn 18 or they have to leave.

Thanks again, Joe

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Superb post, Brandon!!

Here's one thing to consider regarding the old vs. new ways.

Just because it's old doesn't make it better and just because its new doesn't mean that its improved.

There are old methods of stretching, exercising and warming up that are now known to be damaging to the body. Likewise, there are 'new' methods that have virtually no benefit to the body or to one's training.

Keeping something just because its old or adding it just because it is new without taking the time to evaluate its effectiveness is not good practice.

Also, one needs to find the methods that work best for their class. Not every class is the same, so you cannot always use a one size fits all approach. I get a different mix of students from week to week, so if I have more older kids in the class, I run the class differently than when it is more populated with younger kids. And when I get an even mix, I have yet another way.

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

Well said, I have already talked to my instructor about switching up classes and "helping" with the advanced kids. I sure do appreciate all the responds that keep coming tho.
By the time I was 12 I had fractured my ribs twice, bruised my shoulder blade and had a concussion. Oh what good times Lol.
Like your friend I have had my run in with parents also. We got some tough advanced kids but like I said before the fire and heart can't be taught. When they spar, they're willing to bang it's just the rest of it they get lazy on. I will help and learn hopefully, forever a student!

And Daniel you're almost right. The kids are 10-14 and live in the monestary with the option of bcoming monks when they turn 18 or they have to leave.

Thanks again, Joe

Something else to keep in mind:

Fire and heart can't be taught, but most kids 10 - 14 don't understand it yet. I started TKD when I was 12, and I thought I had fire and heart...and then I made yellow belt. I was bigger than most kids my age, so I was able to hold my own against higher ranked 12 and 13 year olds...but about 2 months after I started sparring, I sparred a kid who was bigger than me for the first time. I remember that I was pumped to spar someone bigger than me, but I was't able to be effective against him, and he ended up mopping the floor with me.

I remember that I quit going to class for 2 months. I wasn't used to being dominated, and it made me go through a reality check that I didn't like. I lost the drive to participate in class for a while, but I eventually went back.

The way it looked to my parents and my instructor was that I had pretty much given up, and didn't have the fire and heart to move further. The truth was that I was young at the time, and wasn't mature enough to understand what it meant to have fire and heart. Most kids are the same way. It's not fair to expect more out of them than what they can give...but that's not to say that you can't expect them to give you 100%.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And Daniel you're almost right. The kids are 10-14 and live in the monestary with the option of bcoming monks when they turn 18 or they have to leave.

That environment gives the teacher a lot more latitude with regards to training methods. I do believe that Asian countries are more open to the kids getting rougher training. Mainly though because martial arts is in the culture of those countries, where as here, its kind of grafted onto soccor.

Now in the US, you can get away with a lot of rough training in football, but football is part of our culture.

Daniel

 

[just2kicku]

Thanks guys, like I said for now I'm just gonna help with the kids. But the advanced adults....Watch Out! I guess it's hard to train kids that way these days. I thought it was par for the course, never knew any different. Figured. "Hey, if you don't want to train, there's the door".

That's why I like this site, you get good schizznizzle from just about everyone.

Not even gonna ask about the adv adults, I think I'll just keep being ignorant on that one.LOL

 

[BrandonLucas]

Thanks guys, like I said for now I'm just gonna help with the kids. But the advanced adults....Watch Out! I guess it's hard to train kids that way these days. I thought it was par for the course, never knew any different. Figured. "Hey, if you don't want to train, there's the door".

That's why I like this site, you get good schizznizzle from just about everyone.

Not even gonna ask about the adv adults, I think I'll just keep being ignorant on that one.LOL

There's lots of schizznizzle to be had around here...great topic, too! Makes you think...