Is the new generation of Martials Artist lacking in toughness?

[drop bear]

As I said in the first paragraph of my post, of course you can market Taekwon-Do to a population whose main emphasis is going to be getting fit without recourse to running a cardio-kickboxing type program. But it would take time to build up a client base, partially because you'd have to deal with a general population that sees martial arts in general as something of a kids' activity at this point. BJJ and MMA have largely avoided this because of some very specific, coordinated marketing. (With all the pictures I've seen of MMArtists covered in blood in a caged in octagon I'm not sure anyone would sign their kid up for such an activity. YYMV, of course.)

How would you start changing people's view of TKD as an activity that like that in the video that was posted in the other thread? It would take a lot of marketing based on TKD's military background, its usefulness in self-defense, its ability to foster a general athleticism (without devolving into simple "tricking"), etc. I'd also emphasize that there are two distinct martial arts (or at least two distinct styles) that sue the same name but have little in common.

Pax,

Chris

The how is kind of the question I am asking. If tough is marketable why does tkd suffer from tough training?

 

[Jaeimseu]

The how is kind of the question I am asking. If tough is marketable why does tkd suffer from tough training?

I think the question isn't "Is tough marketable?" but is "Is tough more marketable than the alternative?" From what I've seen, the hardcore training is usually a very small part of a school, and not the part that puts food on the table.

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[drop bear]

I think the question isn't "Is tough marketable?" but is "Is tough more marketable than the alternative?" From what I've seen, the hardcore training is usually a very small part of a school, and not the part that puts food on the table.

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I was assuming the tkd school believed in their own standard though. And rather than lower its expectations turn those expectations into a marketable product.

 

[wingchun100]

I am asking this question based on some conversations and experiences I've had over the past couple of years.

I seem to notice that the current generation of TKD pracxticioners seem less willing to put in the work required to be a good martial artist. It's like the mentality is "What is the least I have to do to be the next Bruce Lee?" Whether it's tournament sparring or just normal practice, I see people who aren't really interested in good ole fashion hard work.

My instructor occasionally has inter school tournaments with 2 other local schools. I always notice, especially in sparring, that the other schools students just aren't that tough. The head instructor of one of the other schools said that when he pushes his students or has sparring a couple of times a week, people quit. It is evident in the way his students perform. Now, I concede that a school is a business and he has to make a decision on the balance between giving the students what they want and giving them a quality program. I also understand that my dedication to the art is more than the average person is willing to commit. But, I also believe that anything worth doing is worth doing well and that usually means you're going to have to put in the work.

I don't want to turn this into a discussion about McDojos.I am just wondering if you guys notice this as well.

Welcome to the wild world of the instant gratification generation. It was there when I grew up in the 90s and, from what I see, it is getting only worse. I mean, we live in a world where you don't really have to earn ANYTHING anymore. You want your favorite band's latest CD? You don't have to work an hour or two to afford it; you can download it illegally and free! It's not shocking that this mentality would spread to other aspects of life.

 

[chrispillertkd]

The how is kind of the question I am asking. If tough is marketable why does tkd suffer from tough training?

Demographics, mostly. People realized there were more kids interested in after school activities than there were adults interested in learning a martial art.

With the popularity of MMA, BJJ, and other programs I have kind of been waiting for Taekwondo to do an about face and start playing up to adults again. (Even the "Hey, here's your chance to go to the Olympics!" starts out with kids.) So far, not so much. There are plenty of ITF schools I know of that have children as the majority of their students but these schools (many more than KKW schools that I know of, of course) don't seem to be quite as after-school-day-care oriented as some other TKD schools I've seen. YMMV.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Rumy73]

Demographics, mostly. People realized there were more kids interested in after school activities than there were adults interested in learning a martial art.

With the popularity of MMA, BJJ, and other programs I have kind of been waiting for Taekwondo to do an about face and start playing up to adults again. (Even the "Hey, here's your chance to go to the Olympics!" starts out with kids.) So far, not so much. There are plenty of ITF schools I know of that have children as the majority of their students but these schools (many more than KKW schools that I know of, of course) don't seem to be quite as after-school-day-care oriented as some other TKD schools I've seen. YMMV.

Pax,

Chris

I call bs, respectfully. Itf, wtf ymmv per school not on the whole.

 

[chrispillertkd]

You might want to spend a little time reading what I actually wrote. Here's the germane quote:

"There are plenty of ITF schools I know of that have children as the majority of their students but these schools (many more than KKW schools that I know of, of course) don't seem to be quite as after-school-day-care oriented as some other TKD schools I've seen. YMMV." Please let me know where I said anything about organizations as a whole in there.

Pax,

Chris

 

[StudentCarl]

Toughness starts at home, but it thrives in training. To me it's no different than the skill progression from white belt onward. Everybody starts out uncoordinated but interested. The ones who have learned to work through (healthy) exercise pain fit in easily. Others progress just like their coordination if you have built the community that can teach people to enjoy suffering. It's true that many just don't want to be too uncomfortable, but that's always been the case. If you can keep enough camaraderie and fun in the suffering, more will stay than you might think. I suppose some will argue that being tough is more an intrinsic trait than a learned one. I do think it's heavily shaped at a young age, but I also think it can be improved by training. The key is to be gradual, taking people to the edge of agony and challenging them to keep going. When you push past what you thought were limits, it feels great. That's what makes pride and memories. The trick is to build the trust and engagement to enable you to lead people that far. People who have found that often seek similar people, but the real trick IMO is to draw in people who have never gone there and build them up to feel that rush of agonizing joy. To me that's the goal: not just making athletes into better athletes but taking regular people and helping them become athletes. By athletes I mean people who have honed their toughness through training.

Carl


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[Rumy73]

Drop bear really wants to live in ancient Sparta, me thinks.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I was assuming the tkd school believed in their own standard though. And rather than lower its expectations turn those expectations into a marketable product.

I was at a school for a few years where class intensity depended on who showed up. If the more talented, aggressive kids showed up, class was intense. If it was the less gifted / less athletic, class was easier. At the end of the day, it was a tkd business, so they felt they needed to tailor the classes according to ability and desires.

Or to put it a different way, standards depended on the students more than the instructors.

 

[drop bear]

I was at a school for a few years where class intensity depended on who showed up. If the more talented, aggressive kids showed up, class was intense. If it was the less gifted / less athletic, class was easier. At the end of the day, it was a tkd business, so they felt they needed to tailor the classes according to ability and desires.

Or to put it a different way, standards depended on the students more than the instructors.

I go to a school that tapers its intensity but that was up to the instructors. Our school does not have a vegi patch. Fighters are expected to mix in with hobbyists.

I prefer that just because it means people want to be there and achieve something. Which I feel is a more productive and more proffesional way to train.

 

[drop bear]

Drop bear really wants to live in ancient Sparta, me thinks.

I want to turn up to training and train like I want to be there. I want to train hard. And I feel it is my limitations that need to be changed not the trainings.

I want to train with others who have the same mind set because then we inspire each other.

This groaning and complaining during hard exercise. Arguing with the instructors. Being slow to start training. I think you start putting more effort to fighting the training than doing it.

I want to get as much out of training as I can and for me that means. I dedicate my time in the gym to the training.

And I am essentially a hobbyist. I am never making a career out of it. But if I can be at a level that I can help somone else do just that I am happy.

 

[TKDTony2179]

There has to be a way to create appeal for it.

That is it. It has to appear tough. Now days it looks soft and just fun for people to do. Like other people said, if you don't look like you work out at all and you are selling TKD then it gives the image that hard work isn't needed. Sorry to say this and I don't mean to offend anyone here but fat is looked upon as lazy and if you are a TKD instructor and you are fat. That says lazy to people.

Even ex muay thai champs look out of shape but they also look like they could kick butt.

 

[wingchun100]

I don't know if it has been said in another reply already, but another thing you have to think about: not everyone in a martial arts school is a super hardcore dedicated martial artist. Some of them are there just because they are kids forced into it by parents who want them to have a hobby other than vegging out on the couch. I went to one school where a LOT of people joined simply because they drove by the school, thought it sounded interesting and wanted to check it out. Most of those kind disappear after a few months.

 

[Marnetmar]

One thing I've noticed about a lot of modern martial arts schools is that students are not taught the basics of or application of learned techniques to sparring before it takes place. Rather, the instructor has the students go over a form/kata and then say "Okay, spar!" As a result it either turns into generic kickboxing or students will get intimidated and quit.

 

[Thousand Kicks]

I was at a school for a few years where class intensity depended on who showed up. If the more talented, aggressive kids showed up, class was intense. If it was the less gifted / less athletic, class was easier. At the end of the day, it was a tkd business, so they felt they needed to tailor the classes according to ability and desires.

Or to put it a different way, standards depended on the students more than the instructors.

This is understandable. As a assistant instructor, I come up against this a lot, But, I made a decision to run the class the way I want and just tell people to push themselves to try and keep up. I also emphasize not to overexert yourself.

I just don't want one group of students to think that they are exempt from the hard stuff because they aren't one of the talented aggresive people. In my class you do what is asked unless there is a legit reason you can't. My head instructor is the same. I might vary the difficulty of the techniques based on the cross section of people, but not the intensity.

I recently joined a Title Boxing fitness gym as a way to keep in shape because my schedule only allows me to go to TKD once maybe twice a week. As you can imagine they get people of all fitness levels in one class. The class doesn't change. The instructors do what they want and expect people to do their best to keep up. The workouts are extremely challenging. But, these gyms are also very successful. So, you can push people and have a successful business.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

In my class you do what is asked unless there is a legit reason you can't.

Sounds good - I enjoy intensity and pushing myself, and hate getting paired with a lazy kid (e.g., in an exericse of 50 syncronized turning kicks) who says "I feel tired" and stops, thereby hindering my own training. Nonetheless, all I can say is "just try" and hope he puts half an effort.

So getting back to the thread, some lack toughness, but IMO it seems the more natural students feel the reward of pushing themselves and enjoy doing so.

 

[Rumy73]

Sounds good - I enjoy intensity and pushing myself, and hate getting paired with a lazy kid (e.g., in an exericse of 50 syncronized turning kicks) who says "I feel tired" and stops, thereby hindering my own training. Nonetheless, all I can say is "just try" and hope he puts half an effort.

So getting back to the thread, some lack toughness, but IMO it seems the more natural students feel the reward of pushing themselves and enjoy doing so.

Why does one need a dojang to work hard on tkd? Put an ad in the local paper. It might be a better way to find people with similar interests. My friend who took karate placed an ad for sparring partners. He got a good little group together. They trained at the rec center.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Here's an article in today's National Post (from Canada) newspaper talking about how "tough" hockey players are, playing with serious injuries, needing painkillers. Personally I think it's crazy, and I hope no TKD schools expect similar "toughness".

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014...ying-make-hockey-players-tougher-than-others/

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Here's something to think about when someone talks about how tough the training at a particular school is or isn't...

Suppose you wanted to do some weight lifting to get stronger and you were scouting out potential gyms. A friend tells you "at gym A everybody bench presses 350 pounds, but at gym B everybody only bench presses 60 pounds. Gym A is obviously the real deal, and B is a McGym."

Would that even make sense? Weight lifting is a progressive form of training. In order to get results, you need to start out at a level your body can safely handle, push your limits just enough, then gradually increase your weights as your body adapts and gets stronger. This has to be geared to the individual. Asking a professional football player to practice curls with 5 pound hand weights is a ridiculous waste of time. Asking an out of shape, 110 pound, 50-year old woman to deadlift 500 pounds is an abusive attempt to injure someone. One size does not fit all.

Why should martial arts training be any different? Different people are physically, mentally, and emotionally prepared for different levels of training intensity. The appropriate level of training for a Navy Seal is not the appropriate level of training for a naturally non-aggressive couch potato who has never been in a fight or played a contact sport. Just like weight training - you have to find the right intensity for an individual, then take them just far enough outside of that comfort zone that they can grow. Remember, the individual's mental/emotional readiness is just as important as their physical readiness.

There is the complicating factor that martial arts is normally practiced with training partners. (Unless you practice an art which is all about solo kata.) This limits the ability of a teacher to completely individualize the level of training for each student. Still, you can have separate classes for students who are ready for different levels of intensity. Within a class you can adjust the levels of intensity by assigning appropriate training partners and fine-tuning the training drills as needed.

In summary, it's not the absolute level of training intensity that matters. It's finding the right level of training intensity for the individual student to learn and grow.