is competition training counter productive?

[bribrius]

is competition training counter productive?

so as my kid has started going for three nights (going on four) a week to class. One of them is devoted to competition sparring for tournaments. only striking and kicking in designated chest and head area.

how to gain a point, what not to do so you don't lose a point. staying in the circle, fakes, etc. (she just started the tournament training)


very fun, but does anyone think this might be counterproductive since you are learning to not do your art but follow the tournament guidelines? The other two nights (or three) is still regular sessions, but i wonder what effects the competition training might have on people.

she doesn't have to go that night, it is optional but she wants too and she is just starting with being able to spar and likes it. competition training night is also free, so i dont pay for it like regular class so in that sense it doesn't matter. Also has the benefit of instead of being just with her belt or age group she is around the high belts and all ages on comp. training night (least a few that do the comps). so she sees more of what they do. Her school offers it free because they prefer the students do the tournaments and represent the school. The school owner (excellent guy btw) seems to prefer all the kids that can go and all the kids try to be far enough along to compete.

I am inclined to let her go but it seems, well counter productive in a way. I dont think most of the students compete and noticed dont even go to comp training night. she also has the option of entering (only had to know chon ji to enter) the actual comp. but i can't see how she would be ready yet and think she just wants to go and watch. I could send her on another regular night for a regular session or sparring session instead. Thoughts??. The wife pretty much thinks keep her home and make her take a night off to rest. lol.

 

[BloodMoney]

With most arts I would say training for competition is definitely counter productive to self defense.

When I did Escrima I would see the guys who did competition stuff using the top of their heads to check some attacks because in a comp the opponent would lose a point for an illegal move. I asked him "yeah but in real life you just took a bat to the skull" and (not surprisingly) was met with an un-impressed look. Same with when I sparred with them, they would grab my stick. I would twist it in their hand and they would look puzzled. I would say "you just lost your fingers, that was a machete you grabbed". I was only giving them a bit of a hard time for fun, but the reality is they were training for competition (in which id get my **** kicked!) and I was training for street self defense. Different people, different styles.

Normally I would say choose self defense and forget the competition, but seeing as your talking Tae Kwon Do I wouldnt say that too hastily. Tae Kwon Do is a great competition art with a thriving scene so your daughter could go on to be a comp champ who knows? She could love the competition side and have no interest in self defense whatsoever. Also Tae Kwon Do isnt the most practical art for self defense in my opinion, teaching small girls to snap kick a grown man in the head to take him out is not very usable, so I would argue that theres probably more merit in doing it for competition, exhibition and of course fun, than any other reason. If she did want to do it for self defense then I would say go 100% only at that and forget comps, spar lots and drill lots and maybe even spend that extra night doing some conditioning training (leg work, cardio etc)

 

[bluewaveschool]

She wants to, she likes it, thats good enough reason to take her.

 

[bribrius]

She wants to, she likes it, thats good enough reason to take her.

that is my first instinct.

 

[jthomas1600]

People who compete I think generally spar much more than those who don't. I understand your concerns about being limited by the rules, but.... many times the outcome of a confrontation is determined by who controls the distance, the tempo and the timing. These things are best learned by sparring.

 

[granfire]

I am waiting for Terryl and ATC to chime in, they know what they are talking about.

From my experience - rather limited with 'vanilla' rules for sparring, in class and out, mixing things up keeps you on your toes. I never landed prettier head punches than when they were not allowed :uhyeah:

With other rules - especially when hogus are involved and full contact - you add one very important element to the mix: Hard hitting. yep, that, too is a point that needs to be addressed.


Also, sparring in class, practice or in preparation for grading, heck, even at grading, you still spar with your friends (one of our kids had a funny thing happen, rather his parents: he would't sparr good at a tournament, "because it's a girl, I can't hit her" even though he had no problem in class with the girls "they are my friends!" :lol: ), at a tournament you all want the same thing: the trophy, and things happen different there, you are up against the other person.


so, after much of half educated blah blah from my side....yeah, it's not bad.

 

[bluewaveschool]

People who compete I think generally spar much more than those who don't. I understand your concerns about being limited by the rules, but.... many times the outcome of a confrontation is determined by who controls the distance, the tempo and the timing. These things are best learned by sparring.

Right on the money. I don't teach for competitions, but sparring ground rules are nothing below the belt, light to medium contact. Have I thought about the idea that those limits may rub off in a real confrontation? Yes, I think most any of us that teach has had it cross our minds. But the value of sparring is in the things the above poster said, plus it teaches you how to take a hit. Mistakes happen, people misjudge distance and strength, and you just get nailed at some point. I think thats a good thing to know in a real confrontation, so that if it happens you don't freeze up thinking 'omg what do i do'. Little kids aren't going to be hitting each other like that, but as she grows up she'll get to that point. I drilled a female brown belt with a front kick when i was a green belt. Not on purpose. She brushed it off. She'd been hit, it was no big deal. Ok, so maybe she put a sidekick into my chin and dropped me to the floor. Thats what I want all of my kids, especially the girls, to get out of sparring. That if you get hit, you don't give up, you stay in it, brush it off. And if you are a girl being hit by a boy, drop him.

Also, I've found that almost ALL kids, regardless of gender, LOVE sparring.

 

[terryl965]

If anything here it has helped with there self defense, the hogu allows full contact so they learn how to get hit and counter hit there opponet. They also learn what is proper striking range or in self defense it would be the dangerzone for us. They also learn how to control the tempo of what is about to happen, is theend all to everything no but it sure does help with confidence that they can handle themself if need be.

 

[StudentCarl]

The competition sparring I do is the most intense activity in my TKD. Classes don't teach you to hit a moving target with power, don't touch footwork and movement, and they don't teach you to take hard shots and keep going. The fitness training on comp team is way beyond regular classes, and the role of fitness, agility and speed in self-defense is way underestimated IMO.
Two fights today, the first with a guy two inches taller and 30 pounds heavier (I'm at the bottom of heavyweight). Footwork let me win me the match. He wanted to muscle me. Learning to deal with different opponent's approaches is good experience.
I think training sparring is the glue to put class learning together and make a more complete taekwondoin.
And like was said above, if she's into it, that should be enough.

Carl

 

[bribrius]

Thanks everyone. You are putting my mind at ease over this. you know, sometimes as a parent we just want what is best for our kids and that isn't always too clear.

 

[ATC]

Remember competition by rules are not SD (self defense). So in one aspect you are correct. There will be some situations that if all you do is compete then you may not have a proper reaction to. However any reaction is better than no reaction and competition will condition you to at minimum react.

Also like already mentioned competition will develop distance, timing, and body conditioning to take a hit better than someone that never gets hit.

Competition will also develop great muscle memory, giving you speed and impact power so when you do strike someone you will strike them harder than someone that never trains, or trains little by hitting back or hitting at all.

So in the end the answer I would give to your question is "NO", it is not counter productive but it also not complete as the rules will leave you unprepared for many things outside of the box that the rules put you in.

However it may not matter if you are good enough to make what you do count from the start.

Just my .02

 

[granfire]

Thanks everyone. You are putting my mind at ease over this. you know, sometimes as a parent we just want what is best for our kids and that isn't always too clear.

But then again, if she has set her mind on ballet or cheer leading, would you have asked that question?

I wish her lots of fun though.

tournaments - though nerve wrecking - can be a ton of fun, meeting tons of new people.

 

[bribrius]

But then again, if she has set her mind on ballet or cheer leading, would you have asked that question?

I wish her lots of fun though.

tournaments - though nerve wrecking - can be a ton of fun, meeting tons of new people.

no. wouldn't have asked it, or signed up on to this site. It makes another question which the wife has brought up to me. we wonder if she is just pretending she likes it because of me and she would rather be in ballet.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Kids that pretend to like it, they don't get excited for sparring.

 

[granfire]

no. wouldn't have asked it, or signed up on to this site. It makes another question which the wife has brought up to me. we wonder if she is just pretending she likes it because of me and she would rather be in ballet.

LOL, no, I mean, the question on whether it's useful/counter productive, naturally you would not ask the ballet questions here! :lol:


I think TKD, especially sparring does separate the wannabes from the tough stuff in no time.