Is teaching for free a bad idea?

[harlan]

Just to be clear: people are stating that their knowledge and time are worth something, and want to ensure students will stay by charging them money.

As a student...don't you think MY time is worth something? Okay...I pay you for your time and attention and knowledge. I hope you didn't want more...like respect, or gratitude or good attendance or long term committment to your school or art. After all...you get compensated for the time...whether or not a student shows up.

And another thing...just be clear that YOU, as an instructor don't 'get' anything from your students other than cash. Because if you need training partners to keep your skills sharp, or long term students that advance to the point that YOU can work your art...then you are taking without compensating. How do you even THAT out?

 

[YoungMan]

Easy. I teach students. I practice with fellow instructors and black belts. And I teach students a martial art not just a set of techniques.

 

[Brian S]

That's only 'easy' if you have all of those.

 

[harlan]

Not directed at you Youngman, but to follow up on your post for clarification:

Do teachers see their 'student's as not contributing to their own (the teacher) training? Especially after 'bringing them along' for 5, 10, 15 plus years?

 

[Brian S]

I learned more in the first year of teaching from my students than from the years before.

Students do give back, whether they know it or not.

 

[MJS]

I'm starting a new Escrima class. So far it's just a few people and most of them are damn near broke. We work out at a park and I have plenty of equipment, I have no overhead and I don't care about the money. But I do care about commitment. On the one hand, my instructor isn't charging me a penny, but I've known him for 25 years (once he was my student in another art) and I do my best to find ways to show my appreciation (one of which is starting this class). On the other hand, it's been my experience that the typical student values what they pay for. If I don't demand a minimal cash commitment, they drift away after the novelty wears off. What do you think?

Whether or not you charge may not necessarily mean that you will retain students. If they're going to leave, they're going to leave. As for teaching for free...I see nothing wrong with it. IMHO, there comes a time when we should give something back. Now, it could be said that you're giving back by teaching for money, and yes, that is true. But in this case, you're doing something nice for people who can't afford much. Their 'payment' IMO would be their dedication to you, and the lessons that you teach.

Good job!

Mike

 

[MJS]

There was talk about what is a serious student. Someone who is serious is, IMHO, someone who dedicates themselves to the training. Its very possible that there're many people in the world who are serious and would love to train, but perhaps havent found the right school. Maybe the art they're looking for isn't offered in a commercial location. And as the OP said, maybe they'd love to train, but can't afford it.

Another way of charging someone could fall into another category. Instead of giving cash, perhaps having some agreement to do something for the community. I've seen many students fall short in a school, and the instructor has them help to clean the school, do office work, etc. So, if you're teaching in a park, there is no school to clean, but what about the park? I don't know about anyone else, but nowadays, you can't walk anywhere without seeing garbage tossed on the ground. After the workout, grab a garbage bag, walk thru the park and pick up trash. Donate your time to some form of community service.

In the end, everyone walks away with a positive experience.

Mike

 

[jks9199]

Just to be clear: people are stating that their knowledge and time are worth something, and want to ensure students will stay by charging them money.

As a student...don't you think MY time is worth something? Okay...I pay you for your time and attention and knowledge. I hope you didn't want more...like respect, or gratitude or good attendance or long term committment to your school or art. After all...you get compensated for the time...whether or not a student shows up.

And another thing...just be clear that YOU, as an instructor don't 'get' anything from your students other than cash. Because if you need training partners to keep your skills sharp, or long term students that advance to the point that YOU can work your art...then you are taking without compensating. How do you even THAT out?

You've got a valid point, but it seems like you've buried it under a posture of entitlement and demand.

This thread is about charging students for the training provided. Sadly, many to most of us have found that too many students squander what we give them if they don't have to pay for it in some fashion. Let's leave the true professional instructors off the table for the moment; obviously, they must successfully balance the demands of the market with their desire to teach, and it ain't easy. The instructors like me who have full time jobs still have costs... Some of us can absorb the cost of instruction (perhaps rent, insurance, equipment, etc.) -- and some of us accept that it's going to be a bit of a financial burden. Hopefully, the burden is reasonable in light of what we get out of teaching. So, we do expect students to contribute to the costs of their training in some fashion, instead of simply "giving it away."

To expand on that a little -- I only offer one formal class a week. My experience has been that if I offer more classes, no matter how much the students scream for more classes, they don't show up. They start making excuses... But with one class, they value that night and that time and don't miss it. Draw what conclusions you wish.

But, as I said -- you do have a point. It IS a two way street. I've seen people who teach solely to have a pile of sparring partners... Sometimes, they end up with a few good students, but that's not their purpose. If it's clear that's what they're doing (like running a gym as a pro or semi-pro fighter), no problem. That's honest. And, in truth, that's what the instructor owes the student.

Honesty. Honestly and fairly offer the art to the student. Honestly encourage and teach them. My goal is for every student to make black belt -- but the reality is that some never will achieve a black belt. If, as a teacher, you're honest with the students, I find that they'll in turn be honest with you, and give you their best efforts. I do expect my students to teach me... because, in breaking things down, and sharing them with students, I learn more about my art. I want my students to be honest in sparring with me; try to hit me, don't simply assume that "the teacher is too good to be hit."

Respect? I expect my students to respect the fact that I'm the teacher, in that training hall. If they don't respect me -- they shouldn't be training with me. I expect them to respect those I bring in as guests, because they respect me. And I respect the students in return. I respect their time and their effort and their dedication -- because without students an art will die.

The biggest problem I have with your post is that you see a purely mercantile approach; you pay your dollar, you get your training. Teaching anything is never successful as a purely mercantile proposition like that. I can deliver you a package for $x. I can build you bookshelf or cabinet for $y, and simply give it to you. I can't give you knowledge in the same manner. The sharing of knowledge is a two-way proposition; there's no way that I won't get something back from teaching you, beyond the cash. You'll ask a question that makes me realize something new; you'll be moving as my opponent, and I will get the practice and chance to see things. Even the most sterile of learning environments, like writing a book or preparing a videotaped lecture, forces me to re-examine what I'm doing, and figure out how to explain it.

Let me use an example from the class I taught last week. I was working my students on their front kicks, with everyone taking turns holding the pads. While teaching, I took turns with the students kicking and holding pads. Holding the pad, I could feel things about their technique -- just like they could feel things when I kicked the pad they held. But I also had to watch them... Well, along the way, we noticed that something was off in MY kicks! It took a couple of us looking, and it was a problem that several of the students were encountering, as well. We solved it -- and we all learned (or rediscovered) a piece of the kick. Did they get what they paid for? Did I get more than money in return for teaching? Was it an unfair transaction?

 

[harlan]

I thought the thread was about about asking for payment in order to ensure students would value the training, and stick around for their money's worth. I thought I read into it that the HOPE was that by tricking students to stick it out long enough to realize some benefit from the training.

My previous posts were an attempt to point out some other aspects. I personally don't have a problem with people that charge...but either way...the expectations from both sides should be clear. As you say...honesty. And that means honesty with one's self as well...on what a teacher gets as well as gives. I kinda think each student, teacher, and relationship can be so different that the decision whether or not to charge just muddies the water.

 

[cfr]

Greetings Geezer. I currently have 3 instructors that teach me for free in various styles. You know one of them, and I have been with him for the least amount of time. My commitment level is high enough with two out of the three of them to show up consistantly week after week and train to my max potential, even in 110 + degree weather. It is also high enough to do all of this, knowing that none of them has any sort of ranking system, so I will never obtain a black belt or anything like it with any of them.

As you are aware, I have been on the fence with the 3rd teacher/ style as I'm just not sure it's for me (really depends on the day you ask me), and have been in question since I began. However, I honestly don't think I would have a higher commitment level if I was paying $$$.

I cant tell you what you should be doing, but can tell you my experience as a non paying student.

 

[kidswarrior]

I think as Kris Wilder says, Eventually every student leaves. The question of how long we keep them, and whether a 'commitment' on their part of some kind, a sacrifice if you will (money, whatever), helps or hurts, has got to be an individual instructor's decision.

I've taught MA 3 1/2 years and never charged--but as exile, I'm in a situation where I can't even if I wanted to (19 years as public HS teacher, tho). Soon, however, will be opening a second location/group, and am still struggling with whether to charge or not. If I do, things like business license, taxes, etc. come into play. That's fine for those who do this for a living, but I have a career already, and those things would be one more thing to eat up my already little time off.

One thing I've toyed with, is having younger (teen) students do service in the community to offset their hours. Maybe a little extra work for me, but may also send the message I'm really after. Anyway, this has turned into a good thread on a topic that's come up before. :bangahead:

 

[Shicomm]

If you can do it then why not ?
Commitment is not something that can be measured in paying for classes or for something else imho.

There really are good people out there that really want to learn and have a good heart but just don't have the cash to access regular teaching.

If i would be in the run to teach somebody i would want to know him / her .
When that person would be on a very low income but good hearted and willing to learn i would help out where possible .

Sharing can be such a good thing !

 

[Imua Kuntao]

Yes, a very bad idea

 

[Live True]

I can only offer the experience of a student who has (sorta) been taking karate classes for free. I say (sorta) because I pay a high gym membership to be able to take this "free" class. I searched hard for a non-popcorn dojo where I would learn the skills, history, and application of the chosen art. What I chose is considered a "hobby" dojo because our instructors train for the love of what they do and as an aside to thier day jobs. I drive an hour to get to classes, and the gym fee is high...but my sensei and coaches receive no fees, except incidentals to cover belts ang gi's.

Recently, we were kicked out of the commercial gym where we train because our instructors refused to go commercial and charge for thier training. Know what happened? The 9 regular students are all looking at thier local schools, churches, restaurants, community centers, parks, etc. in order to continue training. We're training one on one and privately when we can 't meet as a class! We will find a way to train and a place to train, because we love what we do.

It's the training and the community that have bound us together, not any fee we pay. Do we all attend every class. No. Do we train and practice privately. DEFINATELY. Do we take our training seriously. OH YES.

Several of us, myself included, have some financial constraints, and the "free" training has allowed us to discover a new joy in our lives (and some good things about ourselves). Myself, I am 5 months pregnant and continue to practice and train (although at some slower speeds, currently).

IMHO, charging doesn't get your dedicated students....good teaching and chance play just as much a part in that ultimate synergy of meetings and joinings.

 

[TheOriginalName]

Hi there,

I know it's not exactly the same but i do math tutoring free of charge for the same reason, not all people have a disposable income and money isn't a huge problem for me.

But i do require commitment. If a student hasn't done the set homework during the week without a good excuse will result in me packing up and leaving. It might seem harsh but they learn very quickly that simply because i'm "cheap" doesn't mean i'm "soft".

So perhaps a similar approach could be taken - if you don't turn up for a week then you don't come back at all......??

Just a thought.

 

[jks9199]

I don't think anyone has suggested that the only way to pay for classes is to write a check or fork over greebbacks.

But, if you value what you're getting, you should be doing something to pay for it. That something begins with training hard... but it also may include cleaning the floor, setting up the training area, or other methods of "payment." The other night, I look up and see two students watching as the other instructor is preparing the facility. I made a pointed comment that at least one of them should perhaps help...

 

[geezer]

And another thing...just be clear that YOU, as an instructor don't 'get' anything from your students other than cash. Because if you need training partners to keep your skills sharp, or long term students that advance to the point that YOU can work your art...then you are taking without compensating. How do you even THAT out?

This is an excellent point. And, as jks also pointed out, we do get a lot in return from our students. So, even if I don't charge money, I am still getting some compensation for my instruction and I need to consider that in the equation. 1. I am working on building up a set of training partners. 2. I am improving my basics through instruction (as jks noted). 3. Having a class forces me to commit to regular training. 4. If the class grows, I will have a sufficient student base to pay to bring in some "heavy hitters" for seminars and improve my own skills. 5. And, if enough students pay cash to cover my own training debts, maybe my wife will get off my back about the money I blow on the martial arts!!!

 

[Martial Arts Training]

Depends on the quality of instruction. If you can give your students their money's worth, then go ahead and charge, however, if this is a casual thing, then I think charging would turn them away.

 

[AJPerry]

I have to say... CHARGE for your lessons.

As others have said you can put the money towards new equipment, your local community or even a couple of social gatherings for the students to reward them for training with you.

the main reason I believe in charging for lessons is that it does get rid of the hobby people, the time wasters that try it for a week or two and decide it's too much effort.

i agree with free introductory lssons to guage interest but if you never ask for a commitment then you will be punishing your good students by wasting your time with samplers.

I know it doesn't cost you much to entertain these testers but you are devalueing your time and being disrespectful to the people that turn up for every lesson and truely want to learn from you. Show your serious students the respect they deserve and get your new students to commit to you before you share your precious time with them.

 

[AIKIKENJITSU]

I'm starting a new Escrima class. So far it's just a few people and most of them are damn near broke. We work out at a park and I have plenty of equipment, I have no overhead and I don't care about the money. But I do care about commitment. On the one hand, my instructor isn't charging me a penny, but I've known him for 25 years (once he was my student in another art) and I do my best to find ways to show my appreciation (one of which is starting this class). On the other hand, it's been my experience that the typical student values what they pay for. If I don't demand a minimal cash commitment, they drift away after the novelty wears off. What do you think?

I've been teaching off and on for over thrity years. If you don't charge, you will easily get students who are curious and you may get someone who likes what you teach and stays for a long period. But if you charge, they may not have the money. So if you don't need the money, then why charge? I teach for the city, and I can use the money, I admit. But the biggest thing is that you as an instructor have to be in that class every teaching day, where the students come and go when they want to. Can you handle that? Also, you live with frustration of teaching a student great material, only to see him drop out after 8 months. There are very few dedicated students. I teach only a few adults and I have one up to black belt (studying 1st degree) and two are up to brown. It's nice, buy they only come when they want to.
To have a complete class you should shoot for at least 10-15 students. If you don't charge, that should be easy. But after all these years, I still love teaching. Good luck!