Is Rank Revokable?

[loki09789]

Why do you turn everything into attacking you and camp Barber? There were two people (not Jerome) that had there ranks revoked while Jerome was still with Remy. You can ask him whom I'm refering to.

Quite honestly I don't care about that stuff in MA history because I know where I stand on the issue of rank revokation. I don't agree with your view, end of story. As far as the rest of the 'history lesson,' you have mentioned this revoking of rank issue in the past in direct reference to Jerome (thus the basis for my 'attack' interpretation). I know of at least one other. If there are more, first of all it is in poor taste to 'name names' - even in an implication manner (keeping family issues in the family again) here if it is Jerome you are referring to or anyone else IMO and secondly, RP did not have a clear 'code of conduct' that outlined the parameters for discipline or rank pulling. He was a strong artist/fighter, but not great at administrative/leadership as we have discussed in the past. There were times, as has been mentioned in general here, when rank revokations were more about 'insult' perceptions than actual wrong doings - as can happen in any organization with flawed, imperfect human beings in it as we all are. But that is internal and we can talk about that privately if you like.

You could have just sent it in PM or email as I requested and the Admin's/Mods have requested as well. If you want me to discuss this stuff with you so you can tell me what you want me to know yourself, then do so via PM/Email or an agreed phone call time. I would be happy to discuss the topic further but don't want to hijack this thread.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Quite honestly I don't care about that stuff in MA history because I know where I stand on the issue of rank revokation. I don't agree with your view, end of story. As far as the rest of the 'history lesson,' you have mentioned this revoking of rank issue in the past in direct reference to Jerome (thus the basis for my 'attack' interpretation). I know of at least one other. If there are more, first of all it is in poor taste to 'name names' - even in an implication manner (keeping family issues in the family again) here if it is Jerome you are referring to or anyone else IMO and secondly, RP did not have a clear 'code of conduct' that outlined the parameters for discipline or rank pulling. He was a strong artist/fighter, but not great at administrative/leadership as we have discussed in the past. There were times, as has been mentioned in general here, when rank revokations were more about 'insult' perceptions than actual wrong doings - as can happen in any organization with flawed, imperfect human beings in it as we all are. But that is internal and we can talk about that privately if you like.

You could have just sent it in PM or email as I requested and the Admin's/Mods have requested as well. If you want me to discuss this stuff with you so you can tell me what you want me to know yourself, then do so via PM/Email or an agreed phone call time. I would be happy to discuss the topic further but don't want to hijack this thread.

I will post some excerpts from what I believe you can find in the "Practical Art of Escrima" Book that does mention Character, Discipline, Etiquette, Respect, ..., . After I get home later tonight (* Maybe 11:00 PM or so, I will quote it. *)

Yet, Rank and revoking is generic across the arts, not just to Modern Arnis. Hence maybe the location of this thread in the general forum?

******* For everyone on this Thread *************
And remember you can disagree, you just do not have to reply to every single person who does disagree with you and try to prove them wrong. And if you must reply to everyone, then follow the rules and do not bait nor insult and remain friendly. and on topic.

Thank you

 

[Tgace]

I think we need to clarify the question. "Is rank revocable" in the sense of, can an instructor say "I take away your blackbelt"? (administrative) Or in the sense of once the rank is revoked, something is supposed to prevent the person from teaching/learning somewhere else? Or some other sort "punitive" effect.

 

[loki09789]

I will post some excerpts from what I believe you can find in the "Practical Art of Escrima" Book that does mention Character, Discipline, Etiquette, Respect, ..., . After I get home later tonight (* Maybe 11:00 PM or so, I will quote it. *)

Yet, Rank and revoking is generic across the arts, not just to Modern Arnis. Hence maybe the location of this thread in the general forum?

******* For everyone on this Thread *************
And remember you can disagree, you just do not have to reply to every single person who does disagree with you and try to prove them wrong. And if you must reply to everyone, then follow the rules and do not bait nor insult and remain friendly. and on topic.

Thank you

Mentioning it in a text and actually making it a requirement of your rank promotable folks. Having a written, spoken and practiced code of conduct is what I am referring to here. Many arts promote good, responsible behavior, but RP and MA system wide NEVER required standards of conduct as part of the rank promotion process. This is a business of contractual agreements. If someone kicks a client/student out/revokes rank based on some assumption, ambiguous standard that isn't clearly communicated and (in this age of sue happy people) recorded/documented somewhere you are running the risk of a civil case. Stupid? Yes. Smart, accurate and clear business/educational practices? Hell yes. Look at the reems of paper that go to printing out all the regs and policies that outline who business AND learning institutions operate. I think it is ridiculous but you could be successfully sued by someone if you kick them out/revoke rank and don't have your ducks in a row.

As I said before, IMO rank is primarily skill based promotion. THere are schools/instructors who may be practicing such administrative procedures, but it is not, nor has it ever been a rank requirement.

Again, my point is not that it isn't being done just that I don't think that a rank earned because of work and skill can truly be 'revoked' because it represents that skill and ability earned through demonstrated performance.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Mentioning it in a text and actually making it a requirement of your rank promotable folks. Having a written, spoken and practiced code of conduct is what I am referring to here. Many arts promote good, responsible behavior, but RP and MA system wide NEVER required standards of conduct as part of the rank promotion process. This is a business of contractual agreements. If someone kicks a client/student out/revokes rank based on some assumption, ambiguous standard that isn't clearly communicated and (in this age of sue happy people) recorded/documented somewhere you are running the risk of a civil case. Stupid? Yes. Smart, accurate and clear business/educational practices? Hell yes. Look at the reems of paper that go to printing out all the regs and policies that outline who business AND learning institutions operate. I think it is ridiculous but you could be successfully sued by someone if you kick them out/revoke rank and don't have your ducks in a row.

As I said before, IMO rank is primarily skill based promotion. THere are schools/instructors who may be practicing such administrative procedures, but it is not, nor has it ever been a rank requirement.

Again, my point is not that it isn't being done just that I don't think that a rank earned because of work and skill can truly be 'revoked' because it represents that skill and ability earned through demonstrated performance.

Paul, that may be so. Yet, there were standards required of those I trained with, learned from, and taught. Maybe it was just one fo those lessons that Americans were too busy trying to learn the next new technique, and not listening. I do not know. Yet, I say I was there. Maybe not in other areas, as I was not in the know for many other areas, I will nto say yes or no. I will just take your point, and hope that our small little area was not the only one.

:asian:

 

[bignick]

he who giveth can taketh away...

seriously though, i do believe rank is revokable within your own school, in WTF taekwondo at least, all ranks below black belt are regulated only by the master instructor...anyone who is 4th dan or higher can issue certification up 1st gup...after that certification comes from the kukkiwon itself or it's office in colorado...obviously, there should be an acceptable reason for revocation of rank, but i don't see anything legally stopping them...after you reach black belt...i'm not sure what you can do since the certification is issued from the kukkiwon and not your instructor

i'd like restate the point that revoking rank doesn't take away what you've learned...and i've never seen it done...my thoughts above were merely a "can it be done"...not whether it should be done...that's something i'm not informed enough to comment on...

 

[Rich Parsons]

I think we need to clarify the question. "Is rank revocable" in the sense of, can an instructor say "I take away your blackbelt"? (administrative) Or in the sense of once the rank is revoked, something is supposed to prevent the person from teaching/learning somewhere else? Or some other sort "punitive" effect.

Tom,

Yes Semantics as it seems to turn out with many a discussion.

If you are a Marine and kill someone on the streets you can go to jail (* Military *), and be stripped of rank and when time served, dishonarable discharged. You have no Rank in the Military. You have no right to claim Retired either, even if you were an officer. Yet, you still have all skills taught you, assuming you learned them in the first place and you also kept them active. If a Doctor looses his license, he cannot legally practice, yet many do. If alwyer does not pas the BAR test for his state, then they cannot practice certain law. And these can be revoked, yet their education is still there.

The issue with Martial Arts is that when you get your black belt or equivalent, you have knowledge (* assuming quality school and willing student *), and the capability of teaching and can go teach. Now, some are going to say the Martial Arts community should have some form of education system or certificate for teaching. Well NY tried to consider such a bill, to address a guy who had taken advantage of children. I do not think it passed, yet their approach was that if teh person had a state license, then the abuse would not have happened. Luckily, I believe, logic won out, and realized that these predators would have preyed on children no matter where they were. Yet the bill called for a board of Masters to review those who wished to teach. You have to be 3rd degree to open and own your own school. I know I wrote and called asking about the arts that do not have 3rd degree, or would every art have a master available on he board? or would it be by country? How would you protect from politics between arts? i.e. the ITF TKD schools have a Master and the WTF and ATA do not, so then who gets to open schools? Only the ITF. I have not seen any proposed legislation that even begins to address the issue.

Which goes back to my comments above, I hope others got the message, and not just a select few.

:asian:

 

[loki09789]

Tom,


Well NY tried to consider such a bill, to address a guy who had taken advantage of children. I do not think it passed, yet their approach was that if teh person had a state license, then the abuse would not have happened. Luckily, I believe, logic won out, and realized that these predators would have preyed on children no matter where they were. Yet the bill called for a board of Masters to review those who wished to teach. You have to be 3rd degree to open and own your own school.

:asian:

I don't think that rational people (yes, I am referring to politicians/policy makers here ) were/are necessarily following the logic that a licensing process would eliminate abuses or misconduct. The licensing process in this case would create a licensed/certified professional status much like Security Guards, Bail Bondsmen, EMS personal who have to meet state standards, Teachers, Police, Lawyers, Doctors....

Their will always be those who abuse their power, with a licensing process, there is more power that can keep these people from doing it again if they can not legally practice a profession because the license in yanked. Also, there would be mandated background checks that would help to screen out known, record carrying child predators, felons and so on. Though in practice the screening process and background check is not perfect (cases of Licensed LPN's/RN's and Home Healthcare professionals molesting/abusing and stealing from patients/clients are not unheard of here. Even a case of a licensed guard that had a record of assault and rape of seniors assigned to work at a senior community...wow that was an oops).

The problem with licensing MA instructors is that business insurances categorize us under the same heading as fitness and recreation... so if it is to be fair, all aerobics, yoga, rock climbing.... instructors would have to be licensed as well IMO.

How do you do much more than have a mandatory "professional teacher/instructor practices" course that outlines moral practices as a teacher and the state laws around it, first aid and fingerprinting? I don't see how you can. Each field has so many differences (as Rich mentioned too, each MA has different ranks, standards, time lines....).

I don't see a problem with a minimal licensing requirement like that as long as there are some perks for going through the process (a business organization/support group like a BBB for MA, improved insurance rates/premiums...).

The license would equate to 'authority' that would be recognized by the state through the process. That can be revoked, since rank isn't a leadership/authority issue it symbolizes skill. No one can take away my degrees from college because they were based on my meeting/exceeding tested and observed standards. If I am rusty, I might not 'recertify' because I have fallen short of those standards but that is not the same as revoking rank.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I don't think that rational people (yes, I am referring to politicians/policy makers here ) were/are necessarily following the logic that a licensing process would eliminate abuses or misconduct. ....

In this case, it was about Abuse. A women/mother was upset when a child was assaulted. (* And rightfully so *) The wome was connected, and it became an issue, and a actual bill as proposed, to consider the licensing, by a council of masters, with the minimum of 3rd degree for being a teacher. They built the reaction around the case to address this persons' and communitee' outrage. The Bill did not pass. Maybe that was the reason for the wording of some of it to prohibit it from being passed, yet it would make those feel better that they had tried. Yet, nothing was done to address making laws of abuse or assault on minors a mroe strict punishment. They did not address the the root cause.

So, yes some will always be bad. And Yes, some will be good. There will be instnaces of when there is nothign you could do to stop a horrible event. Yet, you are allowed within an organization to revoke rank, in my opinion, when someone has broken your codes of conduct, or has broken the ethics of society, or the laws of the land in which you live. This does not stop the person from teaching again, it does stop the relationship from being a two way relationship versus just one person claiming something.

 

[SMP]

I believe that even a black belt can be revoked for dishonor. If a Grand Master of a Art or the person who promoted a black belt feel that it should be revoked I believe it is their call. my 2 cents

 

[rmcrobertson]

Nope. In the first place, once awarded, the belt is irrevocable---it represents a threshold--or it should--and the door slams behind you.

In the second place, I note the proliferation of disciplinary methodologies and organizations (Michel Foucault would love it) to "Taylorize"--to machineify--an organic decision.

In the third place, oh hell yes, let's open martial arts up to more politics.

In the fourth--speaking as a college professor, it's kind of astonishing to see people advocating fleeing their responsibilities more assiduously than college professors. Or don't instructors have the responsibility to either a) evaluate character before the student gets to that level, or b) facing the fact that they don't think much about the character of the people they give a belt to?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Nope. In the first place, once awarded, the belt is irrevocable---it represents a threshold--or it should--and the door slams behind you.

In the second place, I note the proliferation of disciplinary methodologies and organizations (Michel Foucault would love it) to "Taylorize"--to machineify--an organic decision.

In the third place, oh hell yes, let's open martial arts up to more politics.

In the fourth--speaking as a college professor, it's kind of astonishing to see people advocating fleeing their responsibilities more assiduously than college professors. Or don't instructors have the responsibility to either a) evaluate character before the student gets to that level, or b) facing the fact that they don't think much about the character of the people they give a belt to?

Robert,

This reply surprises me. :idunno:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

a) evaluate character before the student gets to that level, or b) facing the fact that they don't think much about the character of the people they give a belt to?

I don't think that people advertise that they are child molestors, alcholics, etc. when they come to our karate schools. :asian:

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Nope. In the first place, once awarded, the belt is irrevocable---it represents a threshold--or it should--and the door slams behind you.

In the second place, I note the proliferation of disciplinary methodologies and organizations (Michel Foucault would love it) to "Taylorize"--to machineify--an organic decision.

In the third place, oh hell yes, let's open martial arts up to more politics.

In the fourth--speaking as a college professor, it's kind of astonishing to see people advocating fleeing their responsibilities more assiduously than college professors. Or don't instructors have the responsibility to either a) evaluate character before the student gets to that level, or b) facing the fact that they don't think much about the character of the people they give a belt to?

But isn't tenure revokable?

Also, how can a decision be organic?

 

[Patrick Skerry]

I don't think that people advertise that they are child molestors, alcholics, etc. when they come to our karate schools. :asian:

No, but as a mature, intelligent, and worldly adult, you should be able to 'size up' an individual when they apply for instruction.

That is why you start off beginners with a series of long boring routines, to separate the bad students from the good students.

And as an experienced martial artist, one should be able to visit a martial arts school and tell if its legit or a 'McDojo', you should soon discern whether a prospective student is of high moral character.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

you should soon discern whether a prospective student is of high moral character.

Easier said than done. There was a black belt who was an assistant district attorney that I knew for years. About the fifth year of knowing him I began to hang out with him. It turned out that he was a highly functional alchoholic. No one had a clue. It's amazing what skeletons people can hide in their closets.
:asian:

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Easier said than done. There was a black belt who was an assistant district attorney that I knew for years. About the fifth year of knowing him I began to hang out with him. It turned out that he was a highly functional alchoholic. No one had a clue. It's amazing what skeletons people can hide in their closets.
:asian:

Very true. My sensei was a cop, yet it turned out several of our students were members of the mafia.

That is why I insist on keeping an eye on all prospective students.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

That is why I insist on keeping an eye on all prospective students.

Agreed. :asian:

 

[ppko]

Agreed. :asian:

In my first organization we had a guy that was under our head instructor recieved his BB and ended up getting arrested for trying to have sex with a 12 year old girl. Needless to say he is no longer with that organization.

 

[SMP]

People can hide a lot of ugly secrets look at the catholic church (no slam intended). My belief is that if some one promoted you to that rank they can take it away. Or if the grand master of a art believes you no longer deserve to be recognized at a certain rank then it is within their right or maybe their responsibility to decide where you should be recognized or how much respect you shound be given.