Is It Worth Training?

MJS

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Talking to people, hearing their thoughts on various arts, its effectiveness, reading articles on forums, etc. it seems like unless you train a certain way and do certain things, it seems almost as if training is not worth it. If I had a dollar for every time someone took a shot at a TMA, I'd probably be a very rich man.

I get the impression that unless one is 'up with the current trend' that people think that the art is useless. Does one need to enter a MMA event, go out to the local bar and pick a fight, or take part in an underground fight club in order to know if their art will survive? The UFC has been around since 1993. I'm not sure if those types of events or something similar were around way back, but it would be interesting to know how students of those arts did.

So, my question is: Are traditional arts good enough to train in, or does one need to substitute them with something else? Cross training is certainly not a bad thing. I train in a few other things, but that has been and always will be my personal preference. Its certainly not a requirement for everyone. Yes, everyone has a different goal when they begin their training, so going out looking for a fight, may not be on their top 10 list of things to do.
 

bushidomartialarts

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imo, it's about goals. there's no such thing as a superior martial art -- just superior dedication and superior instruction.

if your goal is to become a stone badass quickly, then mma or something like krav maga is probably the way to go. especially if you 'practice' by picking fights with hordes of outlaw bikers on meth.

of course, if your goal is to become a combat machine, why not buy a machine pistol and have done with it?

for me, and most of the practitioners i respect, the goal of martial training is personal evolution: becoming stronger, wiser and more enlightened through the challenges of training. for this goal, mma and similar fads are far inferior to tma as they rarely see mental and spiritual development as a part of the package.

i think i've said this before here. few of us will ever be in a fight (outside of fights professionals like police, bouncers and soldiers get paid to be in). given the expense, time and effort we give our training, this would feel like a bad investment if combat were what this is really about.
 
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MJS

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bushidomartialarts said:
imo, it's about goals. there's no such thing as a superior martial art -- just superior dedication and superior instruction.


for me, and most of the practitioners i respect, the goal of martial training is personal evolution: becoming stronger, wiser and more enlightened through the challenges of training.

I couldnt agree more with these two paragraphs. SD was one of the reasons why I chose to study the arts, but personally, I have no desire to fight on a professional level or go out and try to prove what kind of a fighter I am. I train because I enjoy it. I enjoy the history of the arts and learning as much as I can about them. I've had the chance to meet and train with many fantastic people. I'm happy with the things I've achieved and thats all that matters to me.

Mike
 

Brother John

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MJS said:
Talking to people, hearing their thoughts on various arts, its effectiveness, reading articles on forums, etc. it seems like unless you train a certain way and do certain things, it seems almost as if training is not worth it.

So, my question is: Are traditional arts good enough to train in, or does one need to substitute them with something else?.

It all depends on what you are training for.
There are a PLETHORA of excellent reasons for training in the martial arts, different arts are better at meeting these aims than others, each art is good and applicable w/in it's given context.

Don't try to make a cat Bark and don't try to make a fish fly. ((odd saying, I heard it a while back; perhaps it applies here))
There is NO "End-all, BE-ALL" martial art.
NONE.

Your Brother
John
 

Bigshadow

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MJS said:
Talking to people, hearing their thoughts on various arts, its effectiveness, reading articles on forums, etc. it seems like unless you train a certain way and do certain things, it seems almost as if training is not worth it. If I had a dollar for every time someone took a shot at a TMA, I'd probably be a very rich man.

I get the impression that unless one is 'up with the current trend' that people think that the art is useless. Does one need to enter a MMA event, go out to the local bar and pick a fight, or take part in an underground fight club in order to know if their art will survive? The UFC has been around since 1993. I'm not sure if those types of events or something similar were around way back, but it would be interesting to know how students of those arts did.

So, my question is: Are traditional arts good enough to train in, or does one need to substitute them with something else? Cross training is certainly not a bad thing. I train in a few other things, but that has been and always will be my personal preference. Its certainly not a requirement for everyone. Yes, everyone has a different goal when they begin their training, so going out looking for a fight, may not be on their top 10 list of things to do.
Warriors have existed and trained for centuries, the MMA has barely been around longer than a decade. The reality is that fighting humans can only take on so many variations (thus the physical similarities between martial arts ie, kicks, punches, throws, breaks, locks, etc). Humans move in predictable manners. The human body is designed to move in certain ways, so it is predictable. Where the differences come into play are the theories of application and the ideas and principles that make up one DO versus another DO. If one trains with the mindset of "This will be fun, I can go for 5 minutes", "this will get me an extra 10 points" that creates an entirely different point of view, than one who trains with the mindset "This will end it quickly", "I could die", or "I have to do whatever it takes to live". These training idealogies are drastically different, even though they incorporate some common movements. Each idealogy has specific characteristics that are IMPORTANT to each. This is where they DIFFER greatly! These important things change the way the person deals with the environment of conflict and resolution.


My point in this banter is that MMA does not have the monopoly on training or effectiveness with regard to self defense and dealing with life threatening situations. Often times reality is 180 degrees opposite of what people would lead you to believe. I believe centuries of results is all that one really needs to see that the TMA is OK and works. Humans have not changed physically since then, they don't have 4 arms, 6 legs, and are 40 feet tall.

Don't let chatter distract you.
 
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MJS

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Bigshadow said:
I believe centuries of results is all that one really needs to see that the TMA is OK and works.

Yes, I agree.


Humans have not changed physically since then, they don't have 4 arms, 6 legs, and are 40 feet tall.

:eek: :eek:

Don't let chatter distract you.

I do my best to not let it.:) I'm more than happy and confident with what I'm doing. If someone chooses to talk bad or look down upon my art, thats fine. It just tells me that they'd rather spend their time flapping their jaw, instead of training and learning something about the art.

Mike
 

IcemanSK

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Brother John said:
It all depends on what you are training for.
There are a PLETHORA of excellent reasons for training in the martial arts, different arts are better at meeting these aims than others, each art is good and applicable w/in it's given context.

Don't try to make a cat Bark and don't try to make a fish fly. ((odd saying, I heard it a while back; perhaps it applies here))
There is NO "End-all, BE-ALL" martial art.
NONE.

Your Brother
John

I agree with my Brother John here. I would also add that the Octagon isn't the end all & be all of training. I often wonder why folks feel the need to point at another MA & say it has less value than the one they train in.

Having said that, I also wish folks were more open about where they get certain things they teach. I've heard TKD instructors (teaching a judo throw) say, "This is a TKD technique." But that guy's instructor (who taught it to him) got it from a judo instructor friend. And he bought it cuz, "Sa Bum Nim said so." Because of MMA, I think the fans have even gotten more savee (sp?) to the crossover than MA-ists.

Stepping of the soapbox now.
 
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loanbanker

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I guess its all goal orientated. If my goal is to be the best MMA in the world then training in a traditional martial art is probably not gonna cut it. Cross training would be a must.

If my goal is to be able to protect myself and my family in a street confrontation then I dont think cross training is needed nearly as much. Also I believe those who train for MMA will be at somewhat of a disadvantage.

MMA has rules and fighters train with those rulesets in mind. So when a streen confrontation happens it will not be in there muscle memory to use techniques outside of the MMA rules (just my opinion).

Train in MMA and you can be king of the ring! Train in a traditional martial art and you can be safer on the street.


Again my 2 cents worth.
 

Marginal

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MJS said:
Talking to people, hearing their thoughts on various arts, its effectiveness, reading articles on forums, etc. it seems like unless you train a certain way and do certain things, it seems almost as if training is not worth it. If I had a dollar for every time someone took a shot at a TMA, I'd probably be a very rich man.

It's not even about TMA anymore. If an art uses kata, it's ineffective. That's the true measuring stick. Makes life lots easier.

Sumo? No kata. Solid art.
MT? No kata. Solid art.
Yellow Bamboo? No kata. Solid art.
 

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Marginal said:
It's not even about TMA anymore. If an art uses kata, it's ineffective. That's the true measuring stick. Makes life lots easier.

You prefer no kata? Preference is ok. Before you count something as ineffective, can you tell me the positive reasons/benefits for doing kata?

- Ceicei
 

Xue Sheng

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MJS said:
I get the impression that unless one is 'up with the current trend' that people think that the art is useless.

Nope, that's not true.

MJS said:
Does one need to enter a MMA event, go out to the local bar and pick a fight, or take part in an underground fight club in order to know if their art will survive?

Nope, I think that is silly and incredibly dangerous.

MJS said:
So, my question is: Are traditional arts good enough to train in, or does one need to substitute them with something else?

Yes they are good enough to train in, it all depends on what you are looking for.

MJS said:
Cross training is certainly not a bad thing.

I agree, I've done it and I have also spared other styles, it is a great way to learn.

I am a Traditional Chinese Martial artists and I will take that one step further Internal Chinese Martial Artist. And I do not believe it is necessary to train in multiple arts and go out and pick fights in order to prove you can do it. Actually I do not believe I have to prove anything to anyone but myself when it comes to my martial arts training. And if you are only in Martial arts because you want to fight then you are missing a big part of the art itself. And if you have to prove your strength, power, and superiority to someone else...I will stop there.

If someone loves MMA or TMA or Chinese, Japanese, etc. Martial Arts I think that is great. But I do not think it is great when they start pointing fingers and tell others your wrong and we're right.

Look at the masters of old, how many cross-trained, how many were really good and how many went out and picked fights. Some did cross train, but they generally did

I have said this before, I do not think the people advocating going out and looking for a fight really know how serious that is.

MMA is not the ultimate test to know how you would really do in a fight either. There are still rules in MMA, there are no rules in a real fight. There is very little chance that the guy youre fighting in MMA is going to kill you. In a real fight it is highly probable.
 

Rich Parsons

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MJS said:
Talking to people, hearing their thoughts on various arts, its effectiveness, reading articles on forums, etc. it seems like unless you train a certain way and do certain things, it seems almost as if training is not worth it. If I had a dollar for every time someone took a shot at a TMA, I'd probably be a very rich man.

I get the impression that unless one is 'up with the current trend' that people think that the art is useless. Does one need to enter a MMA event, go out to the local bar and pick a fight, or take part in an underground fight club in order to know if their art will survive? The UFC has been around since 1993. I'm not sure if those types of events or something similar were around way back, but it would be interesting to know how students of those arts did.

So, my question is: Are traditional arts good enough to train in, or does one need to substitute them with something else? Cross training is certainly not a bad thing. I train in a few other things, but that has been and always will be my personal preference. Its certainly not a requirement for everyone. Yes, everyone has a different goal when they begin their training, so going out looking for a fight, may not be on their top 10 list of things to do.

Yes, Traditional Arts are fine to train in.

If they meet your need, then so be it.

If you as a person decide you need more, then go find it.

Enjoy your training, and get what you are looking out of it.

If you find through time or education that it is nto what you want anymore than go looking for a new art.

Just like a nice car. After years, it still looks nice, but the two seater no longer fits your desires. so you go and get a family sedan for you, your spouse and two kids. If you want keep the old car in the garage. If not use it as part of the trade in.
 

Marginal

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Ceicei said:
You prefer no kata? Preference is ok. Before you count something as ineffective, can you tell me the positive reasons/benefits for doing kata?

The fact I put Yellow Bamoo in my list should be a huge tip off that I wasn't being serious. ;)

I was commenting on the attitudes of MMA people I've encounterd over the past few years. Somehow if you ever do a kata, your effectiveness is reduced to zero. (They have a really hard time reconciling Kyokushin Karate's kata practice when it's pointed out. Usually strips several of their gears.) They can't explain why this is so, they just KNOW it.
 

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Jow Ga Gung-Fu does it's fair share of forms work, yet their hand to hand tactics/skills are downright GRUESOME!!! ....and the forms work supports that training, gives them finess.

I knew you were kidding, or at least making lite of the common MMA attitude toward forms. (Yellow Bamboo, Sumo....etc.)
What's unfortunate is that many such folks DO feel that way.

It still depends the most on simply being SERIOUS about your training and seeking excellence on a consistent and persistant basis.

Your Brother (who happens to like watching Sumo)
John
 

Makalakumu

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One of the things that I keep in mind regarding this topic is that MMA, in my opinion, is what Bruce Lee envisioned for JKD. It is constantly evolving and changing and adapting to new circumstances. If TMA's can't do this, then they will lose that cutting edge of effectiveness.

When I look at the TMA that I train in, I see a giant toolbox that I am constantly altering as I look for the best fit. I may never find that fit, but that doesn't bother me. The point is that my TSD is evolving. If I ever put a label on what I do and say "this is and this isn't," then I have killed that process.

IMO, martial arts should be a product that is defined, packaged, and sold. IMO, I think twice about arts that present themselves like this...but that is just me. I also believe that Each to their Own.

upnorthkyosa
 

kamishinkan

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I train in TMA and have my whole MA "life" (somewhere around 20 years). I was in the military and back then I saw a few "situations" (not combat related just military related :) ). I was able to pretty quickly handle the situations.
I was from the school that if a student called looking to learn how to fight he was sent somewhere else. This is a practice I still use today, matter of fact I have a friend that has a MMA school and I give those calls his number! I do not believe the nonsense going around today that only MMA fighters can fight and traditionalists are somehow inferior! I have in the past trained with the MMA guys and I did not find them better or worse just trained differently (usually lacking in the etiquette dept. and trying their best to be opposite anything traditional).
 

still learning

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Hello, Is it worth the training? Yes? Because you become a more confident person! ...you will be able to help defend your family,friends,yourself and others!

The physcial training makes your body stronger and healthier!

The fellowship and friends you make will last a life time, and most of the people who do martial arts...are caring and responsible. (there are exceptions).

The most important I believe is this: You will develop a charcter that is respected,responsible,more mature, humble, honest,....a good person!

Martial arts is NOT about fighting? ...but being the best person you can be and to help others achieve the same!

We prepare for WAR....that will never come? ....because we learn to love life? ...one day you will understand this? .........Humans are not really civilize yet? .............Aloha
 

MSUTKD

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I will take TMA any day. I have practiced for over 25 years and find and learn something new everyday.

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the masters yet, seek what they sought. Basho

ron
 

terryl965

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Well traditional is the only way for me, now with that being said i dabble in a little bit of everything but for myself to become a better all around person. Mixing other style has it benefits for some and I for one just like to learn from everybody that has great info's and techniques.
Terry
 

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I do train in MMA, but not cage fighting. I think that there is a differance. I love watching UFC and other so called MMA events, in fact I am a Judge and Ref for prof. MMA events. Having said that I believe that all martial arts have value and no one art can claim to be "the golden calf" of MA. For those of you who wish to test your skills in the street, I will only say this. If you continue in that line of behavior, someone in a uniform very similar to mine, will point out the error of your ways by introducing you to a Judge and possibly a jail cell.
Pax
Cujo
 
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