IP Techniques: Do We Need Them?

[marlon]

I am astounded at the level of quality in the instruction that I am now receiving. I've had some very good instructors in the past but my current sifu stands on a level above them all. He is a rare level of teacher, and there's just five of us studying with him in his back yard in the middle of the night.

Practicing kenpo without a solid foundation can give effective results, but it's much much more dependent on physical strength and athleticism, something that not everyone can count on. Let's be honest: it's not that difficult to punch someone and hurt them, foundation or no, esp. if someone has a strong arm and shoulder. But we are working to develop something better than that, a higher level of true skill that isn't reliant on brute strength or raw athleticism.

I never met Mr. Parker, I know a lot of people who knew him held him in high esteem. I've heard others who knew him who did not hold his skills in such high esteem. If he understood these issues it seems to me that the lessons failed to reach his students in many cases.

Again, I am not an AK practitioner, however, I can say that there are some have this knowledge and attribute GM Parker as the source...who knows in the end. i was not there. There can be no high level skill without the training you pointed out. None

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[MJS]

Yes, the focus of the training is very different. Seems to me that in kenpo people focus on what to do if X happens, while in traditional kung fu we focus more on HOW do we make something really powerful, and then application sort of falls into place and is simple and straight forward and to the point. It doesn't need to be complicated combinations, just hit the guy and make it devastating.

Funny you should say that. On a similar note, I've said many times, that often arts only deal with what I call the 'during' phase....the person is attacking, heres what you do. And often leave out the 'before' and 'after' phase, which would be verbal de-escalation, etc, and how to deal with the aftermath of an attack.

This is why, when I teach, I like to gear my classes more towards making what people already know better, vs. just teaching another technique, another kata, etc. What good are 15 techs per belt going to do, if they all sucK? LOL.

I suspect some of the really good kenpo guys figure this out on some level, but I think the way the curriculum is structured doesn't have a systematic way of going about teaching and developing it. Often the curriculum is so large that the curriculum itself becomes the focus, instead of making for solid fundamental skills. My sifu repeatedly states that you don't need to learn the whole system of WC, not even most of it. There are just a few very basic things, and the first form, maybe the second, if you know that much and you really understand it and you really develop those fundamentals, you've got way more than you really need to be able to fight if that's what you want to do.

And I've said myself, that we shouldn't have to learn hundreds of techs. to teach us every single principle in Kenpo. There's that many principles? BS! This is why (and I know we didn't wanna talk about this ) I've said that there should be a smaller list per belt. That way, more focus could be devoted to the material. If you have 20 techs/belt, plus 2 katas, how long do you honestly think that someone is going to have to stay at that level, in order to really be competent? Now couple that with the fact that many people seem to be in a rush for rank.

He says (and I see the truth in this) that it all comes down to the basics. The real reason we have a larger curriculum beyond just the basics and the first couple of forms is because most people are too stupid to recognize this. So we all (himself included) need to go thru the process of learning more before we are ready to understand the truth that it all comes down to the fundamentals. Having gone thru the process of learning a larger curriculum, we are training our bodies to apply the fundamentals in different ways, and again that just brings it back to the fundamentals.

Yup, the basics, IMHO, are the keys.

 

[MJS]

Nah you got it. I can't speak for WC but what I know of it, it's like CLF in that there are a limited number of "hands" & you just learn to use them in any fashion/method needed by constant drilling.

In CLF we have 10 "seed techniques". Once you have those 10, it becomes a matter of varying how it's performed & while it may have another "name", it's still just 1 of the 10.

In the majority of the Parker Kenpo schools, its 24/belt. My school, which is a Parker/Tracy hybrid, has about 20/belt. IMO, anymore than 10 is too much. Like I've said before, I see nothing why we cant just perform a tech differently. Depending on how the person attacks, I should be able to come up with multiple ways to adapt 1 tech.

From the kenpo I've seen on the web/movies & little real life, that's what I see. I see a flurry of blows without the body attached. Lots of rapid strikes, but no "visible" evidence of the body connecting to the arm/hand except maybe at the very end. If the body isn't there from the beginning, why begin? Mind you & I'm not knocking or disparaging kenpo & since I don't study it, I can only go by what I see... but truly the power should be visible in the body. If you throw a strike with the body connected, it's visble. I just don't see that in many examples I've seen of Kenpo.

Then again... I don't always see it in TCMA either or at least where I'm expecting to see it.

You're correct. Interestingly enough, one of the teachers at the school does Tai Chi. Its interesting to work with him on techniques, because he'll add that into the tech and the result is obvious...to me anyways. IMO, I think alot of times in Kenpo, power is sacrificed for speed.

 

[clfsean]

In the majority of the Parker Kenpo schools, its 24/belt. My school, which is a Parker/Tracy hybrid, has about 20/belt. IMO, anymore than 10 is too much. Like I've said before, I see nothing why we cant just perform a tech differently. Depending on how the person attacks, I should be able to come up with multiple ways to adapt 1 tech.

Yep... the 10 seeds power the entire style. Obviously, an infinite number of variations & applications can be drawn from them. That's why they're referred to as seeds. What do you do with a seed? Plant it, water it, watch it grow. Same here.

You're correct. Interestingly enough, one of the teachers at the school does Tai Chi. Its interesting to work with him on techniques, because he'll add that into the tech and the result is obvious...to me anyways. IMO, I think alot of times in Kenpo, power is sacrificed for speed.

A good (truly good) taiji player can tool you quick & leave you wondering how it happened & if they're really good... when. :mst:

 

[marlon]

Wow. I just saw that you guys have 24 techniques per belt! It bothers me how much material we have in SK but...

White & yellow belt 7 techniques (3 punch counters and 4 jujitsu moves)
Orange 10 techniques
Purple & Blue 5 techniques
Blue stripe 3
green 9
Green brown stripe 10
Brown 3rd 8
brown 2nd 7
brown 1st 7
shodan 11
nidan 12
sandan 14
yondan 12
and then ten per dan after that.

Of course there are forms and training against grappling, grabs, chokes and weapons that is based on principles and flow with NO set techniques, for eah level after orange belt. Beginners get some set techniques for this as they have little point of reference and usually don't have the basics of alignment I necessary for effective flow.

It takes an adult coming regularly and practicing at home 5-6 years to make it to shodan

You really have 24 per belt? That is quite a bit to work to perfect

I know it has been said over and over but only today did it register the amount of material your talking about
WOW

 

[marlon]

we are getting dangerously close to me coming off as if I'm just ripping on kenpo with a good dose of sour grapes, and I don't want to do that. I'm seeing the issue as a recognition that the kenpo way is not a good match for me, while others may feel it works quite well for them. I don't want to just insult all the kenpoists, that's not my intention. Maybe I've already crossed that line and it's too late, I dunno.

What I'll put forth is a brief description of how we do things in white crane, and what makes sense to me about it. Maybe that perspective will give some insights and kenpoists can compare how they personally see and do kenpo, without me making a list of what I feel doesn't work about it.

we have a very specific method that we use in delivering our techniques in white crane. And by "technique", in the context of white crane I mean every type of punch or strike, I am not referring to the often lengthy Self Defense techniques that are common to most of the Parker-derived kenpo lineages.

We use our foundation and stance to drive everything. Beginning with the feet, we learn to press and brace them against the ground and create a rooting effect that gives us stability. From there we practice a waist turning exercise, which teaches us to rotate the torso by driving the feet against the ground. The feet actively press into and turn on the ground, and that action travels up thru the hips and into the torso and makes it rotate. The rotation of the torso is specifically driven from that action with the feet on up, it is not done by turning at the shoulders and leading the turn from the top. I always say, drive from the bottom, do not turn from the top.

When we deliver almost every type of strike or punch or technique, it comes from this rotation. We very specifically link the travel of the punch to the turning of the body and we are very precise about matching those movements together. The rotation drives the punch out. In my observations, people often "pivot" their feet and throw a punch, but the timing is not together and the stance pivot actually did nothing to power that punch. If they are not together, it does no good. We practice this rotation back and forth all by itself, over and over, and we practice our various striking techniques with this rotation, over and over to develop that timing and ability to engage the whole body in delivering the technique. The change from one stance to another as we rotate back and forth is where the work is being done. The stance itself is just the ending posture. The real work is being done between the stances, and if you screw it up then you diminish the effects.

We do not have a list of self defense techniques like kenpo has. We do practice a curriculum of forms, some of which are quite long and taxing. The forms can be fairly complex and challenging, and most people make the mistake of believing the forms are meant to teach self defense combinations. They focus on the use of the specific movements, i.e. "when I step like this in the form and move my hand like THIS, I can use that combination to defend against a punch in THIS manner..." I agree that this type of analysis is important. however, I believe it is only of second importance and is not the most important thing.

What the forms teach us first and foremost is to keep that foundation strongly engaged no matter what we are doing. The complex movements in the form make it challenging to keep the integrity of the foundation, but a real fight is even more challenging. So the forms are an intermediate step towards being able to fight and being able to maintain that foundation during a rapidly changing situation with a lot of stepping and movements. As we work through the form we keep the stances strong, the rooting engaged, and use that body rotation to drive every technique. Like I said, the forms are long and we've got a fair number of them. It is a challenge to work through a form and keep all the foundation engaged and deliver every technique properly. Racing through your forms does not allow you to get the training benefits of this. It is important to be methodical, and not go any faster than you can while maintaining all the foundation aspects. Sifu harps on us about that and says, slow down and get it right. If you race through and just go thru the motions, you get no benefit, you are only exercising, you get no martial development. The form is NOT a dance, it is NOT an artistic endeavor, it is NOT a performance item. It is a training tool and you only get the benefits when you know how to practice the form correctly and mindfully.

From there we can progress into partner drills to practice specific techniques with a partner. Like my earlier post where I kept saying, "Pek chui to Chuin chui", we just work that on a partner. He throws punches at me and I use my pek chui to smash him down and then counter. But the point of the drill is not to just "do the movement". It is to deliver the technique with that foundation that we've been working so hard to develop, so that it is devastating. We have to wear arm pads when we do this because if not, we'd have to quit after about four shots, it is just that painful and destructive. So we beat the hell out of each other's arms, but we aren't just swatting with our arm; we are delivering technique with full body engagement and rotation, rooted in.

This is in a nutshell the whole idea of white crane: to learn to use the whole body to deliver every technique that we do. There are a few basic principles that permeate all of the system: rooting, rotation, extension, that's mostly it. The whole system is built upon that, and those are the things that drive it all, that is the engine underneath it. Once you understand this and develop the ability to do it, then any and every movement can become a devastating technique because it is all driven with the power of the whole body.

When I think of principles, I think of that kind of permeation, what drives everything. Sometimes people talk about principles, but what they are describing are simply ideas that may be useful under specific circumstances. That is not a principle, it does not drive the entire system, it is of limited use and depends on special circumstances. The principles I consider do not depend on circumstances, they permeate everywhere in the system, under all conditions, almost without exception.

Just curious FC,
have you tried to do any of your kenpo techniques and adhere to these principles?

Marlon

 

[ATACX GYM]

I copy/pasted the following from Rich Hales site:

"The techniques of Kenpo teach you the principles of motion and how to use these principles to defend yourself. Although the techniques can work out on the street, any street altercation will change moment by moment. Therefore, an effective technique is one that has trained you to adapt to the moment, without relying on any one predetermined sequence. In class you learn techniques in prearranged sequence, similar to learning how to speak a language through practicing sample sentences. However once a language is learned, you no longer depend on sample sentences to have conversations. We simple converse in the language we have learned. The same is true in Kenpo Karate"

Mike (FC) stated:

"And this is actually why I have left kenpo, because at least for me the technique format, this way that the curriculum is designed and taught, fails to teach the principles that matter and that everyone seems so sure exist in them. I've actually tried to engage discussions to determine just what those principles are, and more often than not there is little or no response. I personally do not believe the the techniques deliver the goods in terms of teaching these principles. If others believe they do, that's fine by me, but I just do not believe it's in there and at least for me, it simply does not work as a method of training and learning."

So, in an effort to further the discussion, I thought that we could also address this. So, what exactly are the missing principles? Is it that the techniques are missing the real or alive feel to how the poop is really going to hit the fan? If thats the case, then yeah, I agree, especially if the person doing them, never steps outside of the box, and is so bond by the techniques, that they think that if you just know the technique, that thats all that you'll need to know.

I'll stop here for now, just to get the clarification, as if this isn't what Mike is talking about, I dont wanna ramble on and on....lol.

Rich Hales is paraphrasing GGMEP himself.I have videos in which GGMEP makes almost the exact same statements.The IDEAS that spawned the IP are GREAT IDEAS...but THE TRAINING METHOD ENSURES NEAR TOTAL OR ABSOLUTELY TOTAL FAILURE.In keeping with the analogy of language,learning the nonfunctional IP is akin to learning creole and Pig Latin so you can converse in English.The insant that you attempt to apply your creole and Pig Latin in an average English language conversation? You'll fail MISERABLY the overwhelming percentage of time,and THERE'S NO WAY that you can HOPE to partake in an discussion which requires moderate to advanced knowledge of the English language.The few times you succeed in even a marginal way of conveying your meaning to an English speaker is proof of the exception that cements the rule,not the other way around.After learning creole and Pig Latin and attempting for years to converse with English speakers,you begin to learn phrases and recognize strings of words and understand partial meanings...not because your creole or pig Latin works,but because you absorb some English merely due to immersion and saturation.YOU STILL SPEAK CREOLE AND PIG LATIN.Frankly,your English sucks and will stay on sucking status until you chuck the APPROACH you have to learning English.The IDEA of learning English is GREAT; your APPROACH will forever be flawed and nonfunctional.The IDEA BEHIND the IP is GREAT; the IP ITSELF SUCKS AND WILL FOREVER BE FLAWED AND NONFUNCTIONAL.

The Functional Method teaches you correct English from Day One.The actual alphabet,grammar,sentence structure,vocabulary,regional and national dialects,etymology...the works.IMMEDIATELY you improve.I mean...same day you initiate this method of learning with a competent--not even great,just marginally proficient--instructor you will note a clear improvement.Guess what? EVERY DAY that you address learning the English language this way you will CONTINUE to advance clearly and notably; and you will reap the benefits therefrom.Far beyond and far better than everything and anything that you did before because YOU WEREN'T LEARNING ENGLISH BEFORE,YOU WERE JUST AROUND ENGLISH SPEAKERS.You CANNOT RELIABLY LEARN ENGLISH if you study creole and Pig Latin and just hang around English speakers.Your approach was wrong and it will NEVER teach you English.Period.Full stop.That's all.

Translate the Functional,terrific,common sense idea behind the IP--which is to train specific forms of self-defense encounters as rigorously and consistently as we do free form sparring and sharpen the unique Kenpo movements in that environment as well,thus giving us the GIANT ADVANTAGE of muscle memory,technical advantage,technique,mental equilibrium,in short all the benefits accrued from training combatively--into functional,real world TRAINING of the SD sequences.The results will be spectacular and self-evident.We will also have ON HAND AT ALL TIMES the EMPIRICAL distinction between training functional sport combatives (boxing,MMA,wrestling,fencing,Olympic judo and tkd,etc.) and the far more comprehensive benefits of training FUNCTIONAL Traditional Martial Arts (TMA) like Kenpo (everything that sports combatives have PLUS real world self defense skills,weapons skills,true martial arts discipline honor excellent character and more which lasts; the practice of which IMPROVES YOUR PERSON AND ABILITIES THROUGHOUT YOUR LIFE TIME,not just the hand full of years that you can participate in a high impact sport).

Why do adherents of the IP champion it in the face of the obvious comprehensive superiority of the FM? Good question.It's like asking:"Why did it take The Gracie Revolution and the first UFCs to get martial artists in America to by and large realize we really don't know wth to do in the clinch or the ground?" There are still people who resist learning this range despite all of the massive benefits that are obviously accrued from studying vertical grappling (clinch range) ground grappling and groundfighting.Desite the fact that attacks and assaults (especially via surprise) in the clinch and ground and limited movement (in a bar,in a club,in a hallway,a stair case,between cars,in class,in bathrooms,pinned against a wall,on a bed,inside of/against a car,at a ATM,in a movie theater,any limited movement environment,etc.) range (oftentimes with weapons in the hands of the criminal) are THEE MOST COMMON ASSAULT SCENARIOS. I read threads on THIS SITE wherein MJS was asking common sense questions like:"So what do you do if the guy tackles you?" and was being belabored and flamed by posters who claimed that their (insert standup art) would prevent such a likelihood and then would cast direct aspersions upon MJS' good name merely for asking the question. There were PLENTY of people ON THIS SITE claiming that they could STOP THE TAKEDOWN AND DIDN'T NEED TO KNOW ANY GRAPPLING TO STOP A GRAPPLING ATTACK OR EVEN A GRAPPLER.And worst of all? THEY WERE SAYING THIS AS RECENTLY AS 2002-2003 AND BEYOND. This exact same complete denial of basic common sense sustains the fulminations against the FM...which includes the mandate to train ground and clinch and weapons combatives.And as long as this denial remains paramount in the eyes of most kenpoists? Kenpo will NEVER assume its rightful place of glory in the martial arts world.There ya go.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

This thread is to discuss the value or not, of the Ideal Phase techniques. I started this thread, as this subject is popping up in a few other areas in the Kenpo section, so in an effort to not sidetrack the other threads too much, I thought we could discuss it here.

The IP techs are of course, a platform that we should be building from. Of course, as many have said, we should be functional with the techs. as well.

In another thread in this section, it was said that functionality is not a specific set of techniques. Instead, its the underlying principle.

If we look at a boxer, we see a set of punches, but no preset techs. so to speak. The punches can be put together in endless combos.

So, that being said, wouldnt it be possible, to take our basics, ie: the punches, kicks, blocks, etc., eliminate the preset techs, and go right to creating a FM (functional method) technique? In other words, instead of doing Attacking Mace in the IP and then FM for a right punch, just go right to a FM? I mean, it'd almost make sense, especially if you have to change the IP to make it more functional, no?

In closing, let me say that this is just something that was sparked by recent discussion. I have my own views on the techs, that may/may not reflect what I just said above. I'll share those thoughts shortly.

I would say... it depends. Depends on the quality of the instructor, the information in the IP SD tech, and the ability of the instructor to relay the quality of the enclosed information to the student. Too many factors to chalk succes or failure up to singular training methodologies.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Just curious FC,
have you tried to do any of your kenpo techniques and adhere to these principles?

Marlon

This is exactly the question that I was going to ask,Marlon,because my Kenpo instructors were ADAMANT and still ARE ADAMANT about doing this.The lighting fast kenpo movements are supposed to be delivered with a murderous full body commitment to a curvilinear body whip,along with the correct body alignment for each blow/stance/whatever.Many maaany kenpoists can spout the above and make it SOUND good,but then they proceed to destroy the body mechanics of each movement so that they're essentially "speed rushing" their opponents with swift "arm punches" and "leg kicks" without full body commitment to punches,kicks,checks,etc.Lots of us kenpoists agree on that point too.

What we oftentimes acrimoniously fued about is the physical articulation of the specifics of each of the above.What is the "correct" way or "more correct" way of doing such and such. have my own opinion about that matter and I am perfectly willing to concede that others have perfectly valid points and ideas or whatever about the matter which may even be better than my ideas and knowledge of the matter; but I know that my ideas work too because I regularly test them against all comers,including MMA dweebs.I will demo it in more of my videos with my more senior students.Btw...the danger of full body commitments in demos is that their destructive power is sooo incredible that we oftentimes have to tone it down so that the camera can see it and our students don't reflexively flinch in reaction to the oncoming blow and accidentally receive a full on shot (which can have BRUTAL consequences).

 

[marlon]

You know the best proof of your ideas would be the average student who has only learned through your method only in regular classes, not privates. How they deal with the challenges you are accepting will speak volume. Right now it is argueable that you "benefit" from the training you despise. Just a thought
My apologies but I do not know your name ATAX

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Flying Crane]

Just curious FC,
have you tried to do any of your kenpo techniques and adhere to these principles?

Marlon

With a few of them I have, most of them are too complicated and convoluted and don't really blend so well. To try and do this systematically would be to change kenpo into white crane, and then would bog white crane down with a bunch of stuff that frankly it doesn't need. I don't see much benefit in doing so, beyond a very few exceptions. And even with the few exceptions, its something I only do once in a while.

 

[marlon]

With a few of them I have, most of them are too complicated and convoluted and don't really blend so well. To try and do this systematically would be to change kenpo into white crane, and then would bog white crane down with a bunch of stuff that frankly it doesn't need. I don't see much benefit in doing so, beyond a very few exceptions. And even with the few exceptions, its something I only do once in a while.

Just to be clear, it wasn't a challenge or anything. I really was just curious how it would feel to you done with proper principles. Thanks for responding

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Flying Crane]

Just to be clear, it wasn't a challenge or anything. I really was just curious how it would feel to you done with proper principles. Thanks for responding

Respectfully,
Marlon

Oh of course, I did not take it as a challenge, it's a reasonable question. I've thought about it, and those are the conclusions I found.

 

[ATACX GYM]

You know the best proof of your ideas would be the average student who has only learned through your method only in regular classes, not privates. How they deal with the challenges you are accepting will speak volume. Right now it is argueable that you "benefit" from the training you despise. Just a thought
My apologies but I do not know your name ATAX

Respectfully,
Marlon

Actually we already see the superiority of the FM and its results loooong before any of us were born in places like the military and practically every single sport.Millions of people around the world every second of every day prove beyond a doubt the superiority of the FM.Even the most popular martial art in the world in terms of participation--Judo--is squarely centered in the FM.Nobody "ideally" sweeps chokes pins throws or locks you...they take you throw the real world methods of doing all of these things sans injuries during each of the three major phases of the FM.

And 95% of my students are group students.The guy behind the camera filming us is a "non-private lesson" student. Scott--the light kinned baldheaded guy helping me in my Alternating Attacking Maces videos--just signed on to my group class.I can take a complete stranger and make them functional in one hour because the FM works regardless of whoever whenever 95+% of the time.The IP fails at the same rate.

 

[marlon]

I have training in Judo and we learned to apply the chokes and throws against a compliant partner first. Things got amped up as we became better. Chokes due to their nature were heavily regulated in a dynamic fashion because of the potential damage we could do quickly, especially, if the partner was resisting and struggling. ATACX are you speaking about the techniques of the kenpo IP or the method of teachinng the techiques? Remember I do not necessarily have the same understanding as the kenpo people here, so my apologies if the question seems silly. On another note do you teach all that material 24 techniques per belt? I am still stunned by the amount of material.

Repectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

Actually we already see the superiority of the FM and its results loooong before any of us were born in places like the military and practically every single sport.Millions of people around the world every second of every day prove beyond a doubt the superiority of the FM.Even the most popular martial art in the world in terms of participation--Judo--is squarely centered in the FM.Nobody "ideally" sweeps chokes pins throws or locks you...they take you throw the real world methods of doing all of these things sans injuries during each of the three major phases of the FM.

And 95% of my students are group students.The guy behind the camera filming us is a "non-private lesson" student. Scott--the light kinned baldheaded guy helping me in my Alternating Attacking Maces videos--just signed on to my group class.I can take a complete stranger and make them functional in one hour because the FM works regardless of whoever whenever 95+% of the time.The IP fails at the same rate.

Are you saying you can take someone with no training and teach them to defend themselves against and aggressive non compliant attacker in one hour? With all due respect, that is a big claim. How is such a thing possible? How would you do that?

Please note I love and respect your enthusiasm and creativity and what you are bringing to the kenpo community. I just want to learn and understand as best possible through the limited medium of the internet

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[ATACX GYM]

I have training in Judo and we learned to apply the chokes and throws against a compliant partner first. Things got amped up as we became better. Chokes due to their nature were heavily regulated in a dynamic fashion because of the potential damage we could do quickly, especially, if the partner was resisting and struggling. ATACX are you speaking about the techniques of the kenpo IP or the method of teachinng the techiques? Remember I do not necessarily have the same understanding as the kenpo people here, so my apologies if the question seems silly. On another note do you teach all that material 24 techniques per belt? I am still stunned by the amount of material.

Repectfully,
Marlon

I am talking about the methods of teaching and training which have a direct impact on the method of disseminating and practicing the IP.The idea behind the IP is COMMON SENSE AND GREAT,the METHOD OF TRAINING (ZERO) and it's PRESENTATION (ANUS) is horrifically objectionable.

I actually teach more than 24 techniques per belt.I average about 62 techniques per belt.And my students and clientele love it.

And I can take a complete n00b and have them be able to use a specific set of techniques...my guarantee is 1-3 techniques...in a fight when they leave class that night.I can do it EVERY night.Know why? Functional training,aka the Functional Method,aka ALIVENESS.That's why.And the students don't have deep set doubts in their ability either.I select a technique,show them the technical aspects of it,spend the majority of the class drilling that technique and then applying it against escalating levels of resistance.

Since you took judo before and I have a black belt in judo,let me put it in Judo terms.The first Judo technique I teach is falling.You will learn the Judo breakfalls messin with me.You will be one breakfalling individual for the majority of the class.I will also breakfall with the entire class when we go from one end of the mat to the other,I will constantly demonstrate proper technique AND solidarity with my students.I like to roll and breakfall so it's fun for me.Lol.

I spend 10 minutes carefully going over the specifics of the breakfall (forward back,side to side,but I put a good strong emphasis on forward and back falls as these are the most worrisome for beginners) and then I put them on the mat or grass.Sometimes I let them see me execute breakfalls on concrete just so that they know it can be done and it's invaluable.

I link breakfalls with the most basic of standup techniques and throws so students can see right off the utility of learning breakfalls.Those basic standup techniques are usually: stance,footwork,strikes,blocks,tai otoshi and osotogare...and then I will make you breakfall to the end of the room,get up,and repeat this series.You will do it for 4-5 minute rounds,in the air for one round,and then against a totally compliant partner for 3 rounds.

The next 4-5 minute rounds will consist of you blocking the light,low speed attacks of your partner,you countering,each of you grabbing a hold on the other's gi,executing a practice throw (osotogare and tai otoshi) with quarter resistance to each other,and then both of you having to do rolls.Guess what? The game we have here is a drill but you are actually performing unrehearsed blocks and counters.It's akin to sparring.The light resistance,btw,is with your partner attempting to regain their footing if you didn't do the osotogare or tai otoshi right.Still at half speed,not max speed.They also learn that striking and blocking sets you directly into grab/throw range without any special effort on the part of the grappler...if he/she knows how to strike well.They begin to see the large advantage that a well rounded martial artist has on less versatile opposition.

1-5 minute break period ensues.

The next 5 minute round consists of high speed uchikomi with the 10th rep being the throw at half speed.I want the n00bs to get a feel as to what it's like to rip off a high speed full power throw from out the gate...without actually endangering themselves or their partners by trying it out when they haven't had sufficient time to practice it.


If I allow any extra time ate this--usually the hour class is all I give unless it's near a weekend--that time can only be devoted to the punches throws and breakfalls. I wrap up class,encourage them to ask questions or whatever and tell me what they did like and don't like about class; this is how I learn from my students.

In one hour? I took someone who couldnt breakfall and now they can if thrown.I took someone and showed them how to punch and kick and throw by repeatedly focusing on quality reps and escalating resistance.I nan hour's time the average student gets in more than 200 reps of move,kick,block,punch,block,grab,throw,breakfall,and repeat.Sometimes I'll break the middle part of the class into The Gaunlet or Bull in The Ring and throw a student in there until everybody's had 2 go's at everyone in the class.I usually follow one drill directly with the other.Breaks the monotony and keeps the energy up.It really works.

 

[marlon]

I am talking about the methods of teaching and training which have a direct impact on the method of disseminating and practicing the IP.The idea behind the IP is COMMON SENSE AND GREAT,the METHOD OF TRAINING (ZERO) and it's PRESENTATION (ANUS) is horrifically objectionable.

I actually teach more than 24 techniques per belt.I average about 62 techniques per belt.And my students and clientele love it.

And I can take a complete n00b and have them be able to use a specific set of techniques...my guarantee is 1-3 techniques...in a fight when they leave class that night.I can do it EVERY night.Know why? Functional training,aka the Functional Method,aka ALIVENESS.That's why.And the students don't have deep set doubts in their ability either.I select a technique,show them the technical aspects of it,spend the majority of the class drilling that technique and then applying it against escalating levels of resistance.

Since you took judo before and I have a black belt in judo,let me put it in Judo terms.The first Judo technique I teach is falling.You will learn the Judo breakfalls messin with me.You will be one breakfalling individual for the majority of the class.I will also breakfall with the entire class when we go from one end of the mat to the other,I will constantly demonstrate proper technique AND solidarity with my students.I like to roll and breakfall so it's fun for me.Lol.

I spend 10 minutes carefully going over the specifics of the breakfall (forward back,side to side,but I put a good strong emphasis on forward and back falls as these are the most worrisome for beginners) and then I put them on the mat or grass.Sometimes I let them see me execute breakfalls on concrete just so that they know it can be done and it's invaluable.

I link breakfalls with the most basic of standup techniques and throws so students can see right off the utility of learning breakfalls.Those basic standup techniques are usually: stance,footwork,strikes,blocks,tai otoshi and osotogare...and then I will make you breakfall to the end of the room,get up,and repeat this series.You will do it for 4-5 minute rounds,in the air for one round,and then against a totally compliant partner for 3 rounds.

The next 4-5 minute rounds will consist of you blocking the light,low speed attacks of your partner,you countering,each of you grabbing a hold on the other's gi,executing a practice throw (osotogare and tai otoshi) with quarter resistance to each other,and then both of you having to do rolls.Guess what? The game we have here is a drill but you are actually performing unrehearsed blocks and counters.It's akin to sparring.The light resistance,btw,is with your partner attempting to regain their footing if you didn't do the osotogare or tai otoshi right.Still at half speed,not max speed.They also learn that striking and blocking sets you directly into grab/throw range without any special effort on the part of the grappler...if he/she knows how to strike well.They begin to see the large advantage that a well rounded martial artist has on less versatile opposition.

1-5 minute break period ensues.

The next 5 minute round consists of high speed uchikomi with the 10th rep being the throw at half speed.I want the n00bs to get a feel as to what it's like to rip off a high speed full power throw from out the gate...without actually endangering themselves or their partners by trying it out when they haven't had sufficient time to practice it.


If I allow any extra time ate this--usually the hour class is all I give unless it's near a weekend--that time can only be devoted to the punches throws and breakfalls. I wrap up class,encourage them to ask questions or whatever and tell me what they did like and don't like about class; this is how I learn from my students.

In one hour? I took someone who couldnt breakfall and now they can if thrown.I took someone and showed them how to punch and kick and throw by repeatedly focusing on quality reps and escalating resistance.I nan hour's time the average student gets in more than 200 reps of move,kick,block,punch,block,grab,throw,breakfall,and repeat.Sometimes I'll break the middle part of the class into The Gaunlet or Bull in The Ring and throw a student in there until everybody's had 2 go's at everyone in the class.I usually follow one drill directly with the other.Breaks the monotony and keeps the energy up.It really works.

Thanks for the clarification. Training methods that don't include resistence won't work. My personal experience is that resistence too soon re enforces bad basics, especially in alignment and equillibrium, but perhaps that is my issue
. I don't know how AK generally teaches things but I am sure you read my argeement with Flying Crane on basics and practice and amping up prractice.

I have my brown belt in Judo (60 competition poins away from black belt but i don't care), so, I understand what you are saying. Most peple I teach have a hard time with tai otoshi so it seems you can teach that one better than me, at least. But most learn their fall and throws in about 20 minutes true.

as for the self defense techniques. I teach a simple one the first nightthat when they leave they could pull off the movement. but, for me to say that the right body mechanics are there for them to be able to defend with it against a stronger, bigger, faster aggressive attacker...after one hour of class. i doubt it. I am not that good a teacher. I doubt that I could teach a new student off the street in a week of classes to defend themselves well enough to win, against you attacking them all out. Could some joker bully jump them and attack and they drop him with the technique, using speed and surprise and luck. Yep .
After a month of training, a lot of the people who would jump them are in for a nasty surprise. Not just from set techniques but from their ability to respond with the proper body mechanics and target selection and mind set. After a year...no worries about most people. Will it all come out as set techniques, nope; will it all be kempo, yep.
It would be a learning experience for you to put up a video of you training a neew person (or how you would train a new person) in a techniques with all the foot work, alignment, structure and basics. you could condense by not videoing all the reps. But, it would be educational
Repestfully,
marlon

 

[marlon]

Also, which three techniques do you teach the new people first. i would love to see them
thanks

 

[ATACX GYM]

Thanks for the clarification. Training methods that don't include resistence won't work. My personal experience is that resistence too soon re enforces bad basics, especially in alignment and equillibrium, but perhaps that is my issue
. I don't know how AK generally teaches things but I am sure you read my argeement with Flying Crane on basics and practice and amping up prractice.

I have my brown belt in Judo (60 competition poins away from black belt but i don't care), so, I understand what you are saying. Most peple I teach have a hard time with tai otoshi so it seems you can teach that one better than me, at least. But most learn their fall and throws in about 20 minutes true.

as for the self defense techniques. I teach a simple one the first nightthat when they leave they could pull off the movement. but, for me to say that the right body mechanics are there for them to be able to defend with it against a stronger, bigger, faster aggressive attacker...after one hour of class. i doubt it. I am not that good a teacher. I doubt that I could teach a new student off the street in a week of classes to defend themselves well enough to win, against you attacking them all out. Could some joker bully jump them and attack and they drop him with the technique, using speed and surprise and luck. Yep .
After a month of training, a lot of the people who would jump them are in for a nasty surprise. Not just from set techniques but from their ability to respond with the proper body mechanics and target selection and mind set. After a year...no worries about most people. Will it all come out as set techniques, nope; will it all be kempo, yep.
It would be a learning experience for you to put up a video of you training a neew person (or how you would train a new person) in a techniques with all the foot work, alignment, structure and basics. you could condense by not videoing all the reps. But, it would be educational
Repestfully,
marlon

IIRC,you asked me if I can take someone who has never had a single martial arts class and teach them to fight in 1 hour.The answer is YES.So can you in all likelihood.However,can I turn that person into a versatile martial artist in one hour? Hell no.They won't be able to flow from weapons to ground to back again with multiple options in one hour.They can in one week.One hour? Nope. Will they have SOME facility with weapons to the ground in one hour? YEP.

I have had a student come in from off the street and tell me that he and his friend are going to get jumped by bullies after school within 3 days. I trained them intensively then the day of the fight I accompanied them to school,spoke to the Vice Principal and made sure that TPB at school kept the bullies away that day.That weekend the bullies tried to jump the boys' girlfriends not 150 meters from my school and I witnessed the kids I trained (9th graders) tear off in the anal region of the 10th and 11th grade bullies pestering them. I stopped it when one of my boys started stomping on a downed bully and the other kid downed his opponent with a sweet ridgehand to the gonads.My enrollment doubled within a week,lolol.

The fastest turnaround I posted for a student was 45 minutes.Kid's mother came in and pled with me to train her son.She had no money,but she mentioned the name of one of the neighborhood bullies belonging to a neighborhood gang (Baby Insane Crips) and I was all for training him. 45 minutes and one jab and MT shin kick later,the bully was stretched out on the concrete insensate.I didn't teach him too much Kenpo because he would do hospital level damage to this (bigger meaner) bully because the smaller kid I was training had legit anger and beef with the bully (who'd taken several cherished toys,a few lil dollars and a NINTENDO DSI from the kid I was teaching) and I shudder to think what he would have done with a good eye poke,handsword, Raining Claw,and/or a 5 Swords added to the infamous Kenpo groin kick.Besides,K.I.S.S. in this situation most especially,right?

As for training a newb from zero to hero and filming it? Hmmm...thinking about it...