IP Techniques: Do We Need Them?

[Flying Crane]

And this little gem from the same link.​

​

And this is actually why I have left kenpo, because at least for me the technique format, this way that the curriculum is designed and taught, fails to teach the principles that matter and that everyone seems so sure exist in them. I've actually tried to engage discussions to determine just what those principles are, and more often than not there is little or no response. I personally do not believe the the techniques deliver the goods in terms of teaching these principles. If others believe they do, that's fine by me, but I just do not believe it's in there and at least for me, it simply does not work as a method of training and learning.

 

[Touch Of Death]

And this is actually why I have left kenpo, because at least for me the technique format, this way that the curriculum is designed and taught, fails to teach the principles that matter and that everyone seems so sure exist in them. I've actually tried to engage discussions to determine just what those principles are, and more often than not there is little or no response. I personally do not believe the the techniques deliver the goods in terms of teaching these principles. If others believe they do, that's fine by me, but I just do not believe it's in there and at least for me, it simply does not work as a method of training and learning.

That would depend on who was teaching and how.
Sean

 

[Flying Crane]

That would depend on who was teaching and how.
Sean

that's true, but if it's out there I've not seen it yet. Granted I've not seen everything and I don't claim that I have. But I just reached a point where I realized this method doesn't work for me, isn't a good match for me, and I'm OK with that.

 

[MJS]

And this is actually why I have left kenpo, because at least for me the technique format, this way that the curriculum is designed and taught, fails to teach the principles that matter and that everyone seems so sure exist in them. I've actually tried to engage discussions to determine just what those principles are, and more often than not there is little or no response. I personally do not believe the the techniques deliver the goods in terms of teaching these principles. If others believe they do, that's fine by me, but I just do not believe it's in there and at least for me, it simply does not work as a method of training and learning.

Well, maybe we can change that. Who knows, maybe we can work that discussion into this thread.

that's true, but if it's out there I've not seen it yet. Granted I've not seen everything and I don't claim that I have. But I just reached a point where I realized this method doesn't work for me, isn't a good match for me, and I'm OK with that.

Man, this sounds like deja vu, because I've said the same thing myself, especially when it comes to grappling in Kenpo. LOL.

 

[clfsean]

I think the important thing is, those strikes are devastatingly destructive and that's the point. Root in and rotate and the bad guy goes down.

Bottom line!!! Booyah!!:whip1:

I know what you mean about the forearms. We see it as the fist is at the most extended point and has the most momentum, but the flip side is if your fist doesn't survive the impact it doesn't help much. Select your targets wisely.

Very true. You know as well as anybody who's been around for a while, a resisting opponent isn't going to stand there & go "Ok... here I am". For me, like you, the fist is the end of the bat. Sometimes the ball isn't going to be on the outside. So I keep the inside of the bat just as ready as the outside if not preferred. The only way for me to not make a meaningful contact is for the opponent to just not be there.

 

[MJS]

I copy/pasted the following from Rich Hales site:

"The techniques of Kenpo teach you the principles of motion and how to use these principles to defend yourself. Although the techniques can work out on the street, any street altercation will change moment by moment. Therefore, an effective technique is one that has trained you to adapt to the moment, without relying on any one predetermined sequence. In class you learn techniques in prearranged sequence, similar to learning how to speak a language through practicing sample sentences. However once a language is learned, you no longer depend on sample sentences to have conversations. We simple converse in the language we have learned. The same is true in Kenpo Karate"

Mike (FC) stated:

"And this is actually why I have left kenpo, because at least for me the technique format, this way that the curriculum is designed and taught, fails to teach the principles that matter and that everyone seems so sure exist in them. I've actually tried to engage discussions to determine just what those principles are, and more often than not there is little or no response. I personally do not believe the the techniques deliver the goods in terms of teaching these principles. If others believe they do, that's fine by me, but I just do not believe it's in there and at least for me, it simply does not work as a method of training and learning."

So, in an effort to further the discussion, I thought that we could also address this. So, what exactly are the missing principles? Is it that the techniques are missing the real or alive feel to how the poop is really going to hit the fan? If thats the case, then yeah, I agree, especially if the person doing them, never steps outside of the box, and is so bond by the techniques, that they think that if you just know the technique, that thats all that you'll need to know.

I'll stop here for now, just to get the clarification, as if this isn't what Mike is talking about, I dont wanna ramble on and on....lol.

 

[Flying Crane]

Bottom line!!! Booyah!!:whip1:



Very true. You know as well as anybody who's been around for a while, a resisting opponent isn't going to stand there & go "Ok... here I am". For me, like you, the fist is the end of the bat. Sometimes the ball isn't going to be on the outside. So I keep the inside of the bat just as ready as the outside if not preferred. The only way for me to not make a meaningful contact is for the opponent to just not be there.

yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Sifu sometimes talks about nailing that incoming punch under the elbow with a pau chui or something right on the fist, but then he says, ya gotta have really good aim to hit it like that. personally I think sometimes it's OK to go for the greater percentage shot even if the destructive potential is a tiny bit lower. nuthin wrong with taking the safety margin.

 

[Flying Crane]

So, in an effort to further the discussion, I thought that we could also address this. So, what exactly are the missing principles? Is it that the techniques are missing the real or alive feel to how the poop is really going to hit the fan? If thats the case, then yeah, I agree, especially if the person doing them, never steps outside of the box, and is so bond by the techniques, that they think that if you just know the technique, that thats all that you'll need to know.

I'll stop here for now, just to get the clarification, as if this isn't what Mike is talking about, I dont wanna ramble on and on....lol.

we are getting dangerously close to me coming off as if I'm just ripping on kenpo with a good dose of sour grapes, and I don't want to do that. I'm seeing the issue as a recognition that the kenpo way is not a good match for me, while others may feel it works quite well for them. I don't want to just insult all the kenpoists, that's not my intention. Maybe I've already crossed that line and it's too late, I dunno.

What I'll put forth is a brief description of how we do things in white crane, and what makes sense to me about it. Maybe that perspective will give some insights and kenpoists can compare how they personally see and do kenpo, without me making a list of what I feel doesn't work about it.

we have a very specific method that we use in delivering our techniques in white crane. And by "technique", in the context of white crane I mean every type of punch or strike, I am not referring to the often lengthy Self Defense techniques that are common to most of the Parker-derived kenpo lineages.

We use our foundation and stance to drive everything. Beginning with the feet, we learn to press and brace them against the ground and create a rooting effect that gives us stability. From there we practice a waist turning exercise, which teaches us to rotate the torso by driving the feet against the ground. The feet actively press into and turn on the ground, and that action travels up thru the hips and into the torso and makes it rotate. The rotation of the torso is specifically driven from that action with the feet on up, it is not done by turning at the shoulders and leading the turn from the top. I always say, drive from the bottom, do not turn from the top.

When we deliver almost every type of strike or punch or technique, it comes from this rotation. We very specifically link the travel of the punch to the turning of the body and we are very precise about matching those movements together. The rotation drives the punch out. In my observations, people often "pivot" their feet and throw a punch, but the timing is not together and the stance pivot actually did nothing to power that punch. If they are not together, it does no good. We practice this rotation back and forth all by itself, over and over, and we practice our various striking techniques with this rotation, over and over to develop that timing and ability to engage the whole body in delivering the technique. The change from one stance to another as we rotate back and forth is where the work is being done. The stance itself is just the ending posture. The real work is being done between the stances, and if you screw it up then you diminish the effects.

We do not have a list of self defense techniques like kenpo has. We do practice a curriculum of forms, some of which are quite long and taxing. The forms can be fairly complex and challenging, and most people make the mistake of believing the forms are meant to teach self defense combinations. They focus on the use of the specific movements, i.e. "when I step like this in the form and move my hand like THIS, I can use that combination to defend against a punch in THIS manner..." I agree that this type of analysis is important. however, I believe it is only of second importance and is not the most important thing.

What the forms teach us first and foremost is to keep that foundation strongly engaged no matter what we are doing. The complex movements in the form make it challenging to keep the integrity of the foundation, but a real fight is even more challenging. So the forms are an intermediate step towards being able to fight and being able to maintain that foundation during a rapidly changing situation with a lot of stepping and movements. As we work through the form we keep the stances strong, the rooting engaged, and use that body rotation to drive every technique. Like I said, the forms are long and we've got a fair number of them. It is a challenge to work through a form and keep all the foundation engaged and deliver every technique properly. Racing through your forms does not allow you to get the training benefits of this. It is important to be methodical, and not go any faster than you can while maintaining all the foundation aspects. Sifu harps on us about that and says, slow down and get it right. If you race through and just go thru the motions, you get no benefit, you are only exercising, you get no martial development. The form is NOT a dance, it is NOT an artistic endeavor, it is NOT a performance item. It is a training tool and you only get the benefits when you know how to practice the form correctly and mindfully.

From there we can progress into partner drills to practice specific techniques with a partner. Like my earlier post where I kept saying, "Pek chui to Chuin chui", we just work that on a partner. He throws punches at me and I use my pek chui to smash him down and then counter. But the point of the drill is not to just "do the movement". It is to deliver the technique with that foundation that we've been working so hard to develop, so that it is devastating. We have to wear arm pads when we do this because if not, we'd have to quit after about four shots, it is just that painful and destructive. So we beat the hell out of each other's arms, but we aren't just swatting with our arm; we are delivering technique with full body engagement and rotation, rooted in.

This is in a nutshell the whole idea of white crane: to learn to use the whole body to deliver every technique that we do. There are a few basic principles that permeate all of the system: rooting, rotation, extension, that's mostly it. The whole system is built upon that, and those are the things that drive it all, that is the engine underneath it. Once you understand this and develop the ability to do it, then any and every movement can become a devastating technique because it is all driven with the power of the whole body.

When I think of principles, I think of that kind of permeation, what drives everything. Sometimes people talk about principles, but what they are describing are simply ideas that may be useful under specific circumstances. That is not a principle, it does not drive the entire system, it is of limited use and depends on special circumstances. The principles I consider do not depend on circumstances, they permeate everywhere in the system, under all conditions, almost without exception.

 

[MJS]

we are getting dangerously close to me coming off as if I'm just ripping on kenpo with a good dose of sour grapes, and I don't want to do that. I'm seeing the issue as a recognition that the kenpo way is not a good match for me, while others may feel it works quite well for them. I don't want to just insult all the kenpoists, that's not my intention. Maybe I've already crossed that line and it's too late, I dunno.

I'm sure I've crossed that line many times already. LOL. But yes, I do see what you're saying. Its not my intention either although I'm sure it sounds that way in many of my posts.

What I'll put forth is a brief description of how we do things in white crane, and what makes sense to me about it. Maybe that perspective will give some insights and kenpoists can compare how they personally see and do kenpo, without me making a list of what I feel doesn't work about it.

we have a very specific method that we use in delivering our techniques in white crane. And by "technique", in the context of white crane I mean every type of punch or strike, I am not referring to the often lengthy Self Defense techniques that are common to most of the Parker-derived kenpo lineages.

We use our foundation and stance to drive everything. Beginning with the feet, we learn to press and brace them against the ground and create a rooting effect that gives us stability. From there we practice a waist turning exercise, which teaches us to rotate the torso by driving the feet against the ground. The feet actively press into and turn on the ground, and that action travels up thru the hips and into the torso and makes it rotate. The rotation of the torso is specifically driven from that action with the feet on up, it is not done by turning at the shoulders and leading the turn from the top. I always say, drive from the bottom, do not turn from the top.

When we deliver almost every type of strike or punch or technique, it comes from this rotation. We very specifically link the travel of the punch to the turning of the body and we are very precise about matching those movements together. The rotation drives the punch out. In my observations, people often "pivot" their feet and throw a punch, but the timing is not together and the stance pivot actually did nothing to power that punch. If they are not together, it does no good. We practice this rotation back and forth all by itself, over and over, and we practice our various striking techniques with this rotation, over and over to develop that timing and ability to engage the whole body in delivering the technique. The change from one stance to another as we rotate back and forth is where the work is being done. The stance itself is just the ending posture. The real work is being done between the stances, and if you screw it up then you diminish the effects.

We do not have a list of self defense techniques like kenpo has. We do practice a curriculum of forms, some of which are quite long and taxing. The forms can be fairly complex and challenging, and most people make the mistake of believing the forms are meant to teach self defense combinations. They focus on the use of the specific movements, i.e. "when I step like this in the form and move my hand like THIS, I can use that combination to defend against a punch in THIS manner..." I agree that this type of analysis is important. however, I believe it is only of second importance and is not the most important thing.

What the forms teach us first and foremost is to keep that foundation strongly engaged no matter what we are doing. The complex movements in the form make it challenging to keep the integrity of the foundation, but a real fight is even more challenging. So the forms are an intermediate step towards being able to fight and being able to maintain that foundation during a rapidly changing situation with a lot of stepping and movements. As we work through the form we keep the stances strong, the rooting engaged, and use that body rotation to drive every technique. Like I said, the forms are long and we've got a fair number of them. It is a challenge to work through a form and keep all the foundation engaged and deliver every technique properly. Racing through your forms does not allow you to get the training benefits of this. It is important to be methodical, and not go any faster than you can while maintaining all the foundation aspects. Sifu harps on us about that and says, slow down and get it right. If you race through and just go thru the motions, you get no benefit, you are only exercising, you get no martial development. The form is NOT a dance, it is NOT an artistic endeavor, it is NOT a performance item. It is a training tool and you only get the benefits when you know how to practice the form correctly and mindfully.

From there we can progress into partner drills to practice specific techniques with a partner. Like my earlier post where I kept saying, "Pek chui to Chuin chui", we just work that on a partner. He throws punches at me and I use my pek chui to smash him down and then counter. But the point of the drill is not to just "do the movement". It is to deliver the technique with that foundation that we've been working so hard to develop, so that it is devastating. We have to wear arm pads when we do this because if not, we'd have to quit after about four shots, it is just that painful and destructive. So we beat the hell out of each other's arms, but we aren't just swatting with our arm; we are delivering technique with full body engagement and rotation, rooted in.

This is in a nutshell the whole idea of white crane: to learn to use the whole body to deliver every technique that we do. There are a few basic principles that permeate all of the system: rooting, rotation, extension, that's mostly it. The whole system is built upon that, and those are the things that drive it all, that is the engine underneath it. Once you understand this and develop the ability to do it, then any and every movement can become a devastating technique because it is all driven with the power of the whole body.

When I think of principles, I think of that kind of permeation, what drives everything. Sometimes people talk about principles, but what they are describing are simply ideas that may be useful under specific circumstances. That is not a principle, it does not drive the entire system, it is of limited use and depends on special circumstances. The principles I consider do not depend on circumstances, they permeate everywhere in the system, under all conditions, almost without exception.

Correct me if I'm wrong again, but I'm understanding this as a combination of not having a laundry list of technqiues, as well as more of a focus on getting the most bang for your buck with proper basics, ie: body position, footwork, getting the most power out of your move, etc.

I think that many times, if we watch Kenpo, what we see if someone blasting away at the other guy, with more of an emphasis on speed vs power. Am i correct in saying that? If thats the case, then yes, I agree. If we put that kind of power into our techs......

OTOH, watching a few top Kenpo guys, while they may not be doing it exactly as you describe, I do see a bit more of what you're describing in WC.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm sure I've crossed that line many times already. LOL. But yes, I do see what you're saying. Its not my intention either although I'm sure it sounds that way in many of my posts.



Correct me if I'm wrong again, but I'm understanding this as a combination of not having a laundry list of technqiues, as well as more of a focus on getting the most bang for your buck with proper basics, ie: body position, footwork, getting the most power out of your move, etc.

I think that many times, if we watch Kenpo, what we see if someone blasting away at the other guy, with more of an emphasis on speed vs power. Am i correct in saying that? If thats the case, then yes, I agree. If we put that kind of power into our techs......

OTOH, watching a few top Kenpo guys, while they may not be doing it exactly as you describe, I do see a bit more of what you're describing in WC.

Yes, the focus of the training is very different. Seems to me that in kenpo people focus on what to do if X happens, while in traditional kung fu we focus more on HOW do we make something really powerful, and then application sort of falls into place and is simple and straight forward and to the point. It doesn't need to be complicated combinations, just hit the guy and make it devastating.

I suspect some of the really good kenpo guys figure this out on some level, but I think the way the curriculum is structured doesn't have a systematic way of going about teaching and developing it. Often the curriculum is so large that the curriculum itself becomes the focus, instead of making for solid fundamental skills. My sifu repeatedly states that you don't need to learn the whole system of WC, not even most of it. There are just a few very basic things, and the first form, maybe the second, if you know that much and you really understand it and you really develop those fundamentals, you've got way more than you really need to be able to fight if that's what you want to do.

He says (and I see the truth in this) that it all comes down to the basics. The real reason we have a larger curriculum beyond just the basics and the first couple of forms is because most people are too stupid to recognize this. So we all (himself included) need to go thru the process of learning more before we are ready to understand the truth that it all comes down to the fundamentals. Having gone thru the process of learning a larger curriculum, we are training our bodies to apply the fundamentals in different ways, and again that just brings it back to the fundamentals.

But the forms are constructed in a way to reinforce these lessons. They are not just a bunch of SD techs linked together in some way. They are sequences designed (if you understand it properly) to get you to focus on the fundamentals when you deliver and execute every portion of the form.

 

[ATACX GYM]

The ideal is important; because, it limits the student to the lesson. No one in any Kenpo, as far as I know, is advocating the IP only approach.
Sean

The IDEA is important.The IDEAL PHASE is garbage,to be blunt.I mean no disrespect,but the IDEAL PHASE very clearly and obviously puts forth a set of movements that are not only not functional but misleading; if you use the IDEAL PHASE to TRAIN or even INTRODUCE students to a technique? You're underpreparing them mentally and physically for the very rude reality of a SD encounter. I say...introduce the student and limit the student to the lesson BUT BE FUNCTIONAL ABOUT IT.This way THEY ACTUALLY LEARN A REAL WORLD LESSON.


See,it's the real world functionality of the IP (which is basically zero) which gives the lie to its worth as a desirable training tool that preps students for SD.Right out the gate teach a functional response to a functional attack,and you don't even need force at first.Not even in the beginning phases of sparring.(You WILL INCREASE RESISTANCE TO NEAR 100% AS A STUDENT'S PROFICIENCY AND SKILL INCREASES THOUGH,AND IN THE PROCESS DRAMATICALLY IMPROVE YOUR STUDENT'S REAL WORLD SD ABILITY,CONFIDENCE,AND ALL THE THINGS THAT THE IP PURPORTS TO ADDRESS POSITIVELY AND FLAT OUT DOESN'T BUT WHICH THE FUNCTIONAL/ALIVE METHOD DOES DO AND IN FAR SHORTER TME TO BOOT).Here's proof of my words:


This here is the IP version of ATTACKING MACES

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d46GowapCqU&feature=fvst


Functional Attacking Maces Intro:

Functional Attacking Maces sparring:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUtsjUJ7InU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDxHsdUDLDU&feature=related


^^^I really get into a gajillion times more detail in my DVDs,but the sad thing is that too many people champion and defend the IP of the first video clip and actually delude themselves into thinking that they can fight like that.What's even worse is that there are people who learn the IP,proceed to trash can it and develope functional fighting methods wholly divergent from the IP,then come back to defend the IP like it has some worth.That's...just...terrible.The IP is trash.Period.Point blank.There.I said it.

What's also terrible is that there is NOTHING like even these little clips that I am putting out there in the Kenpo market.It's SAD.Frankly,I'm more than a little disappointed and offended that I'm the first that I know of to put out anything like what I have on my Youtube Channel.Fact is? The SD's should've been mandatory sparring tools since long before I was born.Fact is? Demo'ing technique and then sparring live with it should be so basic that it's expected and mandatory.No instructor should teach a student a technique that the instructor hasn't personally sparred with (preferably) or at least said instructor has lotsa sparring and SD experience and is able to engineer techniques that have combat applicability and even if the instructor doesn't spar with it? The instructors students do and do so under the instructor's close supervision so the instructor knows exactly what should and shouldn't be done.Like a boxing coach who used to box professionally.


So NO,the IP has no real place in the real world.It's fatally flawed in many areas and its need to be trash canned or gigantically upgraded to the functional is so extreme that it's criminal.And the funny thing is? GGMEP had a saying..."Train it 50 Ways To Sunday" that would have nicely done the trick.Take every single technique and work it from the primary assortment of basic what-ifs.Multifights armed ground grappling groundfighting (this is different than ground grappling) seated position,escape rescue standing position,CQB range,escape and rescue,etc. etc. The resulting technique is your functional base and THIS is what we should be teaching instead of that dangerously delusional dilapidated decrepit nonfunctional IP.

 

[jks9199]

We use our foundation and stance to drive everything. Beginning with the feet, we learn to press and brace them against the ground and create a rooting effect that gives us stability. From there we practice a waist turning exercise, which teaches us to rotate the torso by driving the feet against the ground. The feet actively press into and turn on the ground, and that action travels up thru the hips and into the torso and makes it rotate. The rotation of the torso is specifically driven from that action with the feet on up, it is not done by turning at the shoulders and leading the turn from the top. I always say, drive from the bottom, do not turn from the top.

When we deliver almost every type of strike or punch or technique, it comes from this rotation. We very specifically link the travel of the punch to the turning of the body and we are very precise about matching those movements together. The rotation drives the punch out. In my observations, people often "pivot" their feet and throw a punch, but the timing is not together and the stance pivot actually did nothing to power that punch. If they are not together, it does no good. We practice this rotation back and forth all by itself, over and over, and we practice our various striking techniques with this rotation, over and over to develop that timing and ability to engage the whole body in delivering the technique. The change from one stance to another as we rotate back and forth is where the work is being done. The stance itself is just the ending posture. The real work is being done between the stances, and if you screw it up then you diminish the effects.

...

This is in a nutshell the whole idea of white crane: to learn to use the whole body to deliver every technique that we do. There are a few basic principles that permeate all of the system: rooting, rotation, extension, that's mostly it. The whole system is built upon that, and those are the things that drive it all, that is the engine underneath it. Once you understand this and develop the ability to do it, then any and every movement can become a devastating technique because it is all driven with the power of the whole body.

When I think of principles, I think of that kind of permeation, what drives everything. Sometimes people talk about principles, but what they are describing are simply ideas that may be useful under specific circumstances. That is not a principle, it does not drive the entire system, it is of limited use and depends on special circumstances. The principles I consider do not depend on circumstances, they permeate everywhere in the system, under all conditions, almost without exception.

Thanks! We don't get there in exactly the same manner, but in Bando, we also use the whole body to generate power, and this just gave me a much better way to explain it than I've had in the past.

We also don't have a choreographed set of techniques in the same sense as the Kenpo sets. We have some drills that I often compare to a musician's scales, where the basics are kind of cataloged for practice. We have some combinations or sets that we use as well, that are general purpose techniques (running out of words!) kind of like the strike/block-counter that you described above.

Our forms serve a number of purposes. Some are meditative exercises. Some (our basic forms) contain and teach certain principles. Some are demonstrations or summations of a system, like the various Animal System forms.

 

[clfsean]

Correct me if I'm wrong again, but I'm understanding this as a combination of not having a laundry list of technqiues, as well as more of a focus on getting the most bang for your buck with proper basics, ie: body position, footwork, getting the most power out of your move, etc.

Nah you got it. I can't speak for WC but what I know of it, it's like CLF in that there are a limited number of "hands" & you just learn to use them in any fashion/method needed by constant drilling.

In CLF we have 10 "seed techniques". Once you have those 10, it becomes a matter of varying how it's performed & while it may have another "name", it's still just 1 of the 10.

I think that many times, if we watch Kenpo, what we see if someone blasting away at the other guy, with more of an emphasis on speed vs power. Am i correct in saying that? If thats the case, then yes, I agree. If we put that kind of power into our techs......

From the kenpo I've seen on the web/movies & little real life, that's what I see. I see a flurry of blows without the body attached. Lots of rapid strikes, but no "visible" evidence of the body connecting to the arm/hand except maybe at the very end. If the body isn't there from the beginning, why begin? Mind you & I'm not knocking or disparaging kenpo & since I don't study it, I can only go by what I see... but truly the power should be visible in the body. If you throw a strike with the body connected, it's visble. I just don't see that in many examples I've seen of Kenpo.

Then again... I don't always see it in TCMA either or at least where I'm expecting to see it.

 

[Inkspill]

I'll be honest and say that from what I've seen, the people who trained in a solid traditional school move far better than most of the kenpo people that I've seen.

ok, I will ammend my thought and say that the movement is still basic. step and block, punch, step, punch, etc.


as for some other points brought up on the thread,



the more I see the more I realize that quality Kenpo is rare. yeah, it's bullspit when you see some guy slap somebody 8 times in 2 seconds, that is not effective, and not the way it was intended to be done. the techniques aren't written as "step the right foot toward 11 into right neutral bow with a right inward block, then glance through the targets as you execute five swords as quickly as possible nicking/slapping each target as fast as you can go"

but you still see folks doing it that way. and it's no wonder people look at it with doubt when it's done like crap

 

[marlon]

we are getting dangerously close to me coming off as if I'm just ripping on kenpo with a good dose of sour grapes, and I don't want to do that. I'm seeing the issue as a recognition that the kenpo way is not a good match for me, while others may feel it works quite well for them. I don't want to just insult all the kenpoists, that's not my intention. Maybe I've already crossed that line and it's too late, I dunno.

What I'll put forth is a brief description of how we do things in white crane, and what makes sense to me about it. Maybe that perspective will give some insights and kenpoists can compare how they personally see and do kenpo, without me making a list of what I feel doesn't work about it.

we have a very specific method that we use in delivering our techniques in white crane. And by "technique", in the context of white crane I mean every type of punch or strike, I am not referring to the often lengthy Self Defense techniques that are common to most of the Parker-derived kenpo lineages.

We use our foundation and stance to drive everything. Beginning with the feet, we learn to press and brace them against the ground and create a rooting effect that gives us stability. From there we practice a waist turning exercise, which teaches us to rotate the torso by driving the feet against the ground. The feet actively press into and turn on the ground, and that action travels up thru the hips and into the torso and makes it rotate. The rotation of the torso is specifically driven from that action with the feet on up, it is not done by turning at the shoulders and leading the turn from the top. I always say, drive from the bottom, do not turn from the top.

When we deliver almost every type of strike or punch or technique, it comes from this rotation. We very specifically link the travel of the punch to the turning of the body and we are very precise about matching those movements together. The rotation drives the punch out. In my observations, people often "pivot" their feet and throw a punch, but the timing is not together and the stance pivot actually did nothing to power that punch. If they are not together, it does no good. We practice this rotation back and forth all by itself, over and over, and we practice our various striking techniques with this rotation, over and over to develop that timing and ability to engage the whole body in delivering the technique. The change from one stance to another as we rotate back and forth is where the work is being done. The stance itself is just the ending posture. The real work is being done between the stances, and if you screw it up then you diminish the effects.

We do not have a list of self defense techniques like kenpo has. We do practice a curriculum of forms, some of which are quite long and taxing. The forms can be fairly complex and challenging, and most people make the mistake of believing the forms are meant to teach self defense combinations. They focus on the use of the specific movements, i.e. "when I step like this in the form and move my hand like THIS, I can use that combination to defend against a punch in THIS manner..." I agree that this type of analysis is important. however, I believe it is only of second importance and is not the most important thing.

What the forms teach us first and foremost is to keep that foundation strongly engaged no matter what we are doing. The complex movements in the form make it challenging to keep the integrity of the foundation, but a real fight is even more challenging. So the forms are an intermediate step towards being able to fight and being able to maintain that foundation during a rapidly changing situation with a lot of stepping and movements. As we work through the form we keep the stances strong, the rooting engaged, and use that body rotation to drive every technique. Like I said, the forms are long and we've got a fair number of them. It is a challenge to work through a form and keep all the foundation engaged and deliver every technique properly. Racing through your forms does not allow you to get the training benefits of this. It is important to be methodical, and not go any faster than you can while maintaining all the foundation aspects. Sifu harps on us about that and says, slow down and get it right. If you race through and just go thru the motions, you get no benefit, you are only exercising, you get no martial development. The form is NOT a dance, it is NOT an artistic endeavor, it is NOT a performance item. It is a training tool and you only get the benefits when you know how to practice the form correctly and mindfully.

From there we can progress into partner drills to practice specific techniques with a partner. Like my earlier post where I kept saying, "Pek chui to Chuin chui", we just work that on a partner. He throws punches at me and I use my pek chui to smash him down and then counter. But the point of the drill is not to just "do the movement". It is to deliver the technique with that foundation that we've been working so hard to develop, so that it is devastating. We have to wear arm pads when we do this because if not, we'd have to quit after about four shots, it is just that painful and destructive. So we beat the hell out of each other's arms, but we aren't just swatting with our arm; we are delivering technique with full body engagement and rotation, rooted in.

This is in a nutshell the whole idea of white crane: to learn to use the whole body to deliver every technique that we do. There are a few basic principles that permeate all of the system: rooting, rotation, extension, that's mostly it. The whole system is built upon that, and those are the things that drive it all, that is the engine underneath it. Once you understand this and develop the ability to do it, then any and every movement can become a devastating technique because it is all driven with the power of the whole body.

When I think of principles, I think of that kind of permeation, what drives everything. Sometimes people talk about principles, but what they are describing are simply ideas that may be useful under specific circumstances. That is not a principle, it does not drive the entire system, it is of limited use and depends on special circumstances. The principles I consider do not depend on circumstances, they permeate everywhere in the system, under all conditions, almost without exception.

Brilliant stuff and excellent training. As I learn and teach shaolin kempo each technique is a mini form with the same focus trained into the forms and the techniques. A greater demand for the more advanced students, of course. Doing techniques on each other is a two person mini form and your practice woul be empty if youdid not focus on those principles of power, structure and alignment. There are other principles as well, including control points and msk maniplation, positioning of your center etc...
You seem to have a good teacher, sir. I have seen kempo/kenpo taught withiout this type of focus, it then becomes pure athleticism in its success and more often thn not pure disappointment and pain in its failure. However, from what little I know of GM Ed Parker, he was more than aware of these principles and knew them to be essential to training
Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Flying Crane]

From the kenpo I've seen on the web/movies & little real life, that's what I see. I see a flurry of blows without the body attached. Lots of rapid strikes, but no "visible" evidence of the body connecting to the arm/hand except maybe at the very end. If the body isn't there from the beginning, why begin? Mind you & I'm not knocking or disparaging kenpo & since I don't study it, I can only go by what I see... but truly the power should be visible in the body. If you throw a strike with the body connected, it's visble. I just don't see that in many examples I've seen of Kenpo.

I will add to this by saying that a lot of those lightning flurries include elements that seem to me to be really far-fetched. Expectations of being able to accomplish things requiring a great deal of precision and set-up in the context of this rapid movement, things that just don't make sense at all in that context. Makes me feel the combinations found in a lot of these SD techs are just not well thought out. Somebody wrote it up at the drawing board and thought that in theory, on paper, it looks good. But they failed to consider it realistically and recognize that there is no way in hell that's ever gonna work, so why pretend?

 

[Touch Of Death]

I will add to this by saying that a lot of those lightning flurries include elements that seem to me to be really far-fetched. Expectations of being able to accomplish things requiring a great deal of precision and set-up in the context of this rapid movement, things that just don't make sense at all in that context. Makes me feel the combinations found in a lot of these SD techs are just not well thought out. Somebody wrote it up at the drawing board and thought that in theory, on paper, it looks good. But they failed to consider it realistically and recognize that there is no way in hell that's ever gonna work, so why pretend?

I agree; however, some martial artist are better at using points on a circle than others. If they are not skilled, they flurry.
Sean

 

[clfsean]

I agree; however, some martial artist are better at using points on a circle than others. If they are not skilled, they flurry.
Sean

But doesn't that point back to basics? If basics aren't stressed, what is?

In CMA there's a saying.... No horse stance, no gung fu. If you don't have sound & secure basics to drive everything, everything else will falter & fail.

 

[Inkspill]

I agree; however, some martial artist are better at using points on a circle than others. If they are not skilled, they flurry.
Sean

you could also be skilled, but moving quicker than is effective for the intended reaction. I can finger whip quickly and it's not going to have much force on it, (snapping vs thrusting motion) however, with the principle of REGULATION OF POWER, I don't have to hit the eye very hard to have an effect, I could thrust a finger into the eye and blow his pupil out his ear, or I can use the finger whip and still get the guy to grab his eye and be in pain (distraction!)

 

[Flying Crane]

You seem to have a good teacher, sir. I have seen kempo/kenpo taught withiout this type of focus, it then becomes pure athleticism in its success and more often thn not pure disappointment and pain in its failure. However, from what little I know of GM Ed Parker, he was more than aware of these principles and knew them to be essential to training
Respectfully,
Marlon

I am astounded at the level of quality in the instruction that I am now receiving. I've had some very good instructors in the past but my current sifu stands on a level above them all. He is a rare level of teacher, and there's just five of us studying with him in his back yard in the middle of the night.

Practicing kenpo without a solid foundation can give effective results, but it's much much more dependent on physical strength and athleticism, something that not everyone can count on. Let's be honest: it's not that difficult to punch someone and hurt them, foundation or no, esp. if someone has a strong arm and shoulder. But we are working to develop something better than that, a higher level of true skill that isn't reliant on brute strength or raw athleticism.

I never met Mr. Parker, I know a lot of people who knew him held him in high esteem. I've heard others who knew him who did not hold his skills in such high esteem. If he understood these issues it seems to me that the lessons failed to reach his students in many cases.