Interesting class

[JasonASmith]

We had an interesting class the other day at the Dojo...
Sensei ended the class by showing us a kata from the other M.A. that is blended(I don't like saying "mixed") with the Shotokan that he's teaching...
It's a form of Silat, and it's applications are...well...Brutal.
After class, Sensei pulled me aside(he seems to be doing that a lot these past few weeks, probably because I am the most sturdily built of the white belts and can take a hit), and ran through some of the bunkai(not sure of the Indonesian word) for the kata...yikes!
I can see now why Sensei has added some of the practices of this form of Silat to the hard-core Shotokan that we are learning...It just fits well...disturbingly well, at that...

 

[Grenadier]

It's good to see that you're getting some insights into other systems.

When it comes to the interpretation of the kata, though, there are often times several ways to interpret the same form, even within the same school. The bunkai / oyo for a kata can start out as basic blocking and attacking, in order to strike an attacker, but as one progresses, he may be given a new level of interpretation.

Now, instead of a block simply being a block, that same motion can be used for joint locks, strikes, etc. A hand that had earlier pushed away an attacker's arm now might be bending that attacker's arm bone, and so forth.

 

[TimoS]

I know some people who think that if it isn't the official and/or original bunkai of the kata, it is just about useless. Myself, I think that if it works and you don't need to break the form completely, then it's a good application.

 

[Shrewsbury]

Silat is very brutal and the pounding strikes are quite different from other systems. We incorporate silat with our bagua and tai chi, it is a nice compliment to any style.

Form application is endless, when you think of throwing, striking, pressure points, energy, locking, and other things, a single move can have numerous apps, add a move in before, after, or both and the possibilities are nearly endless.

 

[JasonASmith]

Sorry that I haven't responded sooner, I've been sick for the past 4 days(Viral Meningitis-a new one for me)...I was just blown away by how easily this form of Silat and Shotokan came together as one...I would have figured that there would have been stark differences(there probably are, I just haven't seen them as of yet) between the two arts.
That quote by Bruce Lee when he mentions the tree and its' branches really does hold merit, doesn't it?

 

[JasonASmith]

Just to keep this going, we did some more Tjimande at the end of class today...It was the same kata, but that's how you learn...repetition and practice...He did say something interesting about this kata, though...
O'Sensei is fond of saying that this kata should take 1/2 HOUR to perform!...Every move is excruciatingly(sp?) deliberate...It's an exercise in killing your leg muscles, because EVERY stance and movement is done in the deepest stance that you can manage...then go down another 1/2 inch deeper...I think that my legs are going to fall off...
Sensei showed us some more of the Bunkai for the kata, as well...
Be afraid, be very, VERY afraid...

 

[tshadowchaser]

Happy you are enjoying the class.

May i ask a favor Please do not type in large bold letters
thanks

 

[JasonASmith]

Happy you are enjoying the class.

May i ask a favor Please do not type in large bold letters
thanks

Sorry, I'll remember that in the future...

 

[tshadowchaser]

Thank you sir.

Your classes sound interesting please keep us informed of how they go

 

[JasonASmith]

Ahh!!! More Tjimande tonight!
Sensei knows that I like working on this(because I'm insane!), and he seems to be opening up a little more to some of my questions about the art in general...
Shotokan is number one for me of course, but this form of Silat is very interesting to me for some reason...Probably because it's such a workout, and I REALLY like doing leg work...When I still lifted weights hardcore, leg day was my favorite day...
The other reason that I like it so much is that it's meditation in motion...To me, it's almost like Tai Chi...It's done slowly, with no power to the movements. It's only when you work the bunkai for this kata that you realize how deadly it is...That's not the reason I like it(it's almost scary to think about it that way), of course...:erg:

 

[Carol]

I train in Silat. It is brutal...and my legs are still burning from last week's class.

The takedowns are very effective, and are a particularly good weapon for someone like me that is likely to face an attacker that is more than double my weight.

Silat must always be practiced SLOWLY. In real life, if the attacker resists, they risk neck injury, paralysis, or...worse. This isn't an art to do recklessly.

In the dojo, when paired, we must train so our training partners are unharmed. It takes skill, and a lot of trust. Glad you are enjoying it

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I have had absolutely no exposure to Silat. Would love too though, looks nice and nasty!

Keep us posted on how this is going for you.

Jeff

 

[Carol]

I have had absolutely no exposure to Silat. Would love too though, looks nice and nasty!

Keep us posted on how this is going for you.

Jeff

Legend says that Silat was combined with dance movements so the native Indonesians could keep their art hidden from warring conquerors. The uneven terrain requires the moves to be done in a deep stance, on one knee, or even on the ground entirely. It is fascinating.

 

[zDom]

I've usually heard the "Silat" paired with "Penjak" (sp?)

What is the difference between Silat and Penjak Silat?

(not even sure if what I'm asking makes sense...) These are FMAs?

 

[Carol]

I've usually heard the "Silat" paired with "Penjak" (sp?)

What is the difference between Silat and Penjak Silat?

(not even sure if what I'm asking makes sense...) These are FMAs?

Pentjak Silat is often taught at Filipino schools, but it is an Indonesian art.

"Silat" means "fighting" or "self defense"

"Pentjak" (also spelled Pencak) means "the motions of"

Silat is a broad name for the art, which originated from Java. Tjimande is the oldest and most widely practiced lineage of Javanese Silat. Pentjak Silat Serak is newer and is reputed to be a bit more aggressive and brutal.

Different lineages of the same art

 

[matt.m]

On Wed after TKD a fourth dan and I have been working knife defense and Kali flow drills for a few minutes. It is a great asset to have extra of. I know of someone that used to come to our class after it was over to work some of the Kali flow drills are amazing.

 

[exile]

Sensei showed us some more of the Bunkai for the kata, as well...
Be afraid, be very, VERY afraid...

OK, I promise I'll be afraid, but in return you have to tell us something about these bunkai. Not gory detail for every move, but could you give a two or three move sequence from the kata along with the bunkai your instructor sketched to you for that sequence, to give some of the flavor of these bunkai (and maybe some detail about how they mesh with bunkai from the Shotokan kata you're thinking of)? Applications for the Shotokan can be quite...um, unpleasant, I know---sometimes I find myself reading something on this stuff or seeing e.g. Abernethy demo bunkai for kata and it makes me wince---but I'll be glad to listen to descriptions of the even more horrific applications you've mentioned.

 

[exile]

Sensei showed us some more of the Bunkai for the kata, as well...
Be afraid, be very, VERY afraid...

OK, I promise I'll be afraid, but in return you have to tell us something about these bunkai. Not gory detail for every move, but could you give a two or three move sequence from the kata along with the bunkai your instructor sketched to you for that sequence, to give some of the flavor of these bunkai (and maybe some detail about how they mesh with bunkai from the Shotokan kata you're thinking of)? Applications for the Shotokan can be quite...um, unpleasant, I know---sometimes I find myself reading something on this stuff or seeing e.g. Abernethy demo bunkai for kata and it makes me wince---but I'll be glad to listen to descriptions of the even more horrific applications you've mentioned.

 

[JasonASmith]

Well, as for the bunkai to Tjimande, all that Sensei has given us leads up to one thing...
Death for your opponent, usually(almost all of the time) due to a neck snap...However, O'Sensei will NOT teach the complete bunkai to these kata, simply for the reason above...His senior students(the ones that he teaches Tjimande to) must "figure out" how the ending works...From what I understand, O' Sensei took a vow not to teach the complete system, it goes against his religion, I believe...Hopefully you understand when I say that I don't know too much bunkai for Tjimande then...As for the Shotokan/Tjimande mix, let me get back to you on that(I'm still trying to wrap my head around it)

 

[exile]

Well, as for the bunkai to Tjimande, all that Sensei has given us leads up to one thing...[/FONT]
Death for your opponent, usually(almost all of the time) due to a neck snap...

Ah yes, the neck twist. Simon O'Neil has some bunkai for TKD hyungs which also have neck twists as the nasty application underlying what looks like an innocent lunge-punch/chamber move---what's `really' going on is a hair-grab-and-push (looks like a punch in the hyung)/hair (or face)-grab-and-pull (looks like a simple retraction to chamber)...yes, that'll about do it.:nuke:

However, O'Sensei will NOT teach the complete bunkai to these kata, simply for the reason above...His senior students(the ones that he teaches Tjimande to) must "figure out" how the ending works...From what I understand, O' Sensei took a vow not to teach the complete system, it goes against his religion, I believe...Hopefully you understand when I say that I don't know too much bunkai for Tjimande then...As for the Shotokan/Tjimande mix, let me get back to you on that(I'm still trying to wrap my head around it)

Cool, JAS, anything you have on that subject will be interesting. I'm very interested in `mixed' kata systems because while the Korean MAs' earliest sets of forms were of course taken straight from the Okinawan/Japanese karate systems learned by the original Kwan masters, they were mixed and reshuffled over a long period as the imported karate kata became `Koreanized'. So the phenomenon of kata mixing and reorganization is something that I'd like to get understand better. I think it's a great teaching technique your Sensei is using, to in effect set up the bunkai as a problem you have to solve. Thanks very much for the info! :asian: