Shotokan class

[Manny]

Well even with a lot of cold and very windy night I went to the Shotokan Dojo, I came early and saw the sensei cleaning the woden floor and while doing this we had a nice chat. The class was kids and some mom's (men will arrive at 9 pm) so I jump in the class either way because the night was so cold and the north wind was increasing and I live in the other side of the city.

The class was very simple, just practicing tachikatas (stances) and desplacements doing several stances, you know forward,backwards, sideways and all trying to maintain the stance using some blocks, there are some japanese comands I already knew but some others not so it was no easy follwing the sensei orders. Then we practice some defenses againt punches and afther two hours the class ended.

One black belts student from sensei came at 9 pm and practiced a beautifull kata, sorry for the name I really don't recall it, but I stared at him and got inside the wooden floor to analyze the movemets, sensei asisted the black belt and do minor adecuations and asked me if I knew the kata and told him no, that I know Taeguks and TKD Poomsae but not any karate kata.

Sensei invited me to be UKE/TORI and invited me to atack his black belt with a punch and using the bunkai of the kata he showed me how to parry/blockm, grab-kick and then finish, the techs were if I recall, go out and diagonally using neko-dashi parrying/blockin the punch, pulling and kicking (mae geri) the ribs and then finish with tensho to the jaw.

Sensei was glad to see I grabed the tech at once and told me nice words. He told me his dojo is my dojo, that I can go anytime I want to, that I must keep doing TKD and teaching the way I know and the way I lyke because my TKD is a good one indeed, that I must focus in my toughts and my believes.

So I have the dojo's door open and will return soon because I really enjoyed it.

Manny

 

[tshadowchaser]

wonderful.
Sounds like you had a good time in a good school
One thing, when you arrived early and introduced yourself I hope you offered to help clean the floor with or for the instructor.
Keep us informed as to how your time at this school goes

 

[Manny]

wonderful.
Sounds like you had a good time in a good school
One thing, when you arrived early and introduced yourself I hope you offered to help clean the floor with or for the instructor.
Keep us informed as to how your time at this school goes

Sensei was alone with closed door, in fact he did not allow anyone to get inside till he finished cleaning but me, offcourse I ofered to help him in the cleaning process but he did not allow me and handled me a book he was reading about japanese history.

I am very fortunate to have some martial arts friends like Gerom (the karate sensei), I am very polite and keep etiquette everitime I go to another dojo, this has gave me the respect of the senseis.

Sometimes I think my TKD is beyond the borders, I like to try some other arts and to have technical interchange with my MA frieds, we are very open about what we do and never compare one to another like.... what is best karate o tkd, or judo is better than aikido and that kind of stuff, we respect each other.

This shotokan class was like a charge my battery and gave me strong feelings about what I am doing.

Manny

 

[drop bear]

Yeah good work.

 

[Transk53]

Well even with a lot of cold and very windy night I went to the Shotokan Dojo, I came early and saw the sensei cleaning the woden floor and while doing this we had a nice chat. The class was kids and some mom's (men will arrive at 9 pm) so I jump in the class either way because the night was so cold and the north wind was increasing and I live in the other side of the city.

The class was very simple, just practicing tachikatas (stances) and desplacements doing several stances, you know forward,backwards, sideways and all trying to maintain the stance using some blocks, there are some japanese comands I already knew but some others not so it was no easy follwing the sensei orders. Then we practice some defenses againt punches and afther two hours the class ended.

One black belts student from sensei came at 9 pm and practiced a beautifull kata, sorry for the name I really don't recall it, but I stared at him and got inside the wooden floor to analyze the movemets, sensei asisted the black belt and do minor adecuations and asked me if I knew the kata and told him no, that I know Taeguks and TKD Poomsae but not any karate kata.

Sensei invited me to be UKE/TORI and invited me to atack his black belt with a punch and using the bunkai of the kata he showed me how to parry/blockm, grab-kick and then finish, the techs were if I recall, go out and diagonally using neko-dashi parrying/blockin the punch, pulling and kicking (mae geri) the ribs and then finish with tensho to the jaw.

Sensei was glad to see I grabed the tech at once and told me nice words. He told me his dojo is my dojo, that I can go anytime I want to, that I must keep doing TKD and teaching the way I know and the way I lyke because my TKD is a good one indeed, that I must focus in my toughts and my believes.

So I have the dojo's door open and will return soon because I really enjoyed it.

Manny

That is good to hear. Good luck

 

[sfs982000]

Glad to hear that it was such a positive experience. It's nice that he left the invitation for you to come back and train with them whenever you like and also encouraging you to continue with TKD.

 

[Manny]

Glad to hear that it was such a positive experience. It's nice that he left the invitation for you to come back and train with them whenever you like and also encouraging you to continue with TKD.

Yes and thank you, in some point I thought it would be silly to put all my TKD background in the closet (almost 20+ years) and start from cero in another MA.

Yes I would like to learn some karate kata to be aplied in some kind of bunkai and be happy but know I will need to get a more heavy exposure to karate than just one or two sessions.

The karate sensei got in love with Kungam poomsae and wants me to teach it to him so I can do it and ask him to him to show me a nice karate kata as an exchange and rhis would be great!!

What kata do you advise me to ask sensei to teach me? I don't wana something superfancy but no an easy one or beginers one, so be kind and let me know what kata should I ask, I want something tith good emphasys in hands.

Saludos desde el golfo de Mexico.

El Manny

 

[TrueJim]

What kata do you advise me to ask sensei to teach me? I don't wana something superfancy but no an easy one or beginers one, so be kind and let me know what kata should I ask, I want something tith good emphasys in hands.

I have read (I don't remember where) that the Tang Soo Do forms Chul-Gi and Passai (or Bassai) are sometimes taught in some taekwondo schools. I'm not an expert, but I think Chul-Gi is based on the karate Naihanchi kata while Bassai is based on the Pal-Sek kata. So those two forms (or series of forms) seems to me like they would be good candidates for you to learn: they are based on karate kata (like many Tang Soo Do forms), and at least in some taekwondo schools they are apparently part of that school's taekwondo tradition.

I've seen YouTube videos of Naihanchi being performed, and I like its "fighting on a ledge" look. I've often thought it would be fun to learn.

The Wikipedia page for the Passai kata (rightly or wrongly) even claims it to be a taekwondo form! So if you went with Naihanchi and Passai, you'd be learning karate kata that apparently have had some influence on taekwondo -- that could be fun. You'd be learning karate kata, but also learning some taekwondo(-ish) stuff at the same time.

Naihanchi - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Passai - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Chul-Gi - Taekwondo Wiki
Bassai - Taekwondo Wiki

 

[dancingalone]

Assuming he practices a deep level of bunkai beyond the surface block, punch type and he means to share it fully, I would ask him to teach you his BEST kata, the one he understands most deeply. This is kind of a presumptuous request though depending on the closeness of your relationship (sounds like you are still in the beginning stages).

Otherwise, I'd go with Bassai Dai or Kanku Dai. Both are brown belt level kata yet are deep enough for a lifetime of study. Arguably they are very representative of the style too...

One thought - is this sensei in the JKS? If so, the thought of learning one of the Asai kata would be appealing to me. Perhaps one of those "crane wing" ones - forget the Japanese name off the top of my head.

Above all, I would try to avoid anything that is too similar to the KKW poomsae that you already know.

 

[dancingalone]

I've seen YouTube videos of Naihanchi being performed, and I like its "fighting on a ledge" look. I've often thought it would be fun to learn.

I don't recommend learning Naihanchi unless one actually learns the whipping technique characteristic of the Shorin-ryu execution of them. The big Shotokan movements in the Tekki versions just aren't to my taste - one hasn't learned anything that you couldn't also gain just from practicing the TKD forms one already does.

No offense intended to the Shotokan folks. Just my opinion.

 

[chrispillertkd]

One thought - is this sensei in the JKS? If so, the thought of learning one of the Asai kata would be appealing to me. Perhaps one of those "crane wing" ones - forget the Japanese name off the top of my head.

Interesting, I didn't know Asai Ryu had kata like that. Do you know if they are the same kata that are present in Ryuei Ryu that are from White Crane, or unique to Asai?

Pax,

Chris

 

[sfs982000]

Yes and thank you, in some point I thought it would be silly to put all my TKD background in the closet (almost 20+ years) and start from cero in another MA.

Yes I would like to learn some karate kata to be aplied in some kind of bunkai and be happy but know I will need to get a more heavy exposure to karate than just one or two sessions.

The karate sensei got in love with Kungam poomsae and wants me to teach it to him so I can do it and ask him to him to show me a nice karate kata as an exchange and rhis would be great!!

What kata do you advise me to ask sensei to teach me? I don't wana something superfancy but no an easy one or beginers one, so be kind and let me know what kata should I ask, I want something tith good emphasys in hands.

Saludos desde el golfo de Mexico.

El Manny

I think that it's awesome that he recognized your previous TKD experience and the opportunity to exchange kata training will be a nice change of pace for both of you.

As far as what kata to have him train you in, in my personal training in Shotokan I only learned up to Tekki-Sandan. But I would agree with Dancing Alone with Bassai-Dai would probably be a good one to exchange with him.

 

[dancingalone]

Interesting, I didn't know Asai Ryu had kata like that. Do you know if they are the same kata that are present in Ryuei Ryu that are from White Crane, or unique to Asai?

They are not. Asai Sensei created them along with his legion others. The JKS instructors sent from HQ teach them heavily so the series must be considered important in their system. I can't reach my JKS friend right now by phone otherwise I'd get more details about them.

There's something like 4 or 5 of them. And no, they don't look anything at all like White Crane or Feeding Crane or any other real gungfu. They look like Shotokan done in a fluid fashion. Worth a look if one's mechanics are Shotokan-ish.

 

[Transk53]

Feeding Crane

What would this be? Sorry, just have to ask

 

[Manny]

Assuming he practices a deep level of bunkai beyond the surface block, punch type and he means to share it fully, I would ask him to teach you his BEST kata, the one he understands most deeply. This is kind of a presumptuous request though depending on the closeness of your relationship (sounds like you are still in the beginning stages).

Otherwise, I'd go with Bassai Dai or Kanku Dai. Both are brown belt level kata yet are deep enough for a lifetime of study. Arguably they are very representative of the style too...

One thought - is this sensei in the JKS? If so, the thought of learning one of the Asai kata would be appealing to me. Perhaps one of those "crane wing" ones - forget the Japanese name off the top of my head.

Above all, I would try to avoid anything that is too similar to the KKW poomsae that you already know.

This sensei is not from JKS. This sensi has no organization, in the beginning he was afiliated but now he taughts by his own, and yes I should ask for the kata he likes or knows better.

Manny

 

[Manny]

What about Jion Kata? Yestarday I saw some clips from Heian katas (basic ones), Basai Dai, Kanku Dai, the Tekki series Jiin, Jitte, Jion, Wankan, Chinte, Sochin, Gonkaku, Empi and the one I like because it's not as elaborated was Jion what do you think?

Something I want to discuss here is the Taeguk poomsaes, they are very linear and the patterns are not as beautifull as the japanese kata but I must admit the Taeguk paters are easy to comprehend and memorize so they were designed to be learned well without so many complications ans this is good for the kups studentes. Things start to change in the dan poomsaes, Koryo is nice and Kungan in powerfull and Taebeck is very very nice ( I have to polish it) and pyongwon is very nice indeed.

What I will do those days will polish taebek and continuing with koryo and kungam and then in separate sessions will cover Teguks 1 to 8 just to stay sharp in the poomsae. I can arrange the shotokan class latter.

El Manny

 

[TrueJim]

Disclaimer: I'm not a karate or TSD guy, so I only know what I've read. My understanding is that Jion is another example of a karate kata that has been adapted into Tang Soo Do. So it too has the advantage that you'd be learning a karate kata that's also a Tang Soo Do hyung, and is studied in some taekwondo schools.

Ji-On - Taekwondo Wiki
Graphic used with permission, from e JIN DO - Tang Soo Do Chon Kyong

 

[dancingalone]

What about Jion Kata? Yestarday I saw some clips from Heian katas (basic ones), Basai Dai, Kanku Dai, the Tekki series Jiin, Jitte, Jion, Wankan, Chinte, Sochin, Gonkaku, Empi and the one I like because it's not as elaborated was Jion what do you think?

You mentioned not wanting to learn a kata that was too basic... Well, Jion is basically a rearrangement of the movements found in the lower forms, including the Heian. <shrugs> It's easy to learn in my opinion. On the other hand, it is a good kata for older, larger martial artists allowing a showcase of power and basic stance work.

There's nothing wrong with Jion. It's just not sexy to me. I would pick something else, but you know what they say about opinions.

 

[dancingalone]

What would this be? Sorry, just have to ask

A Chinese style that arguably has been a large influence on Goju-ryu karate. You should be able to see some video of it on the 'net.

 

[dancingalone]

Disclaimer: I'm not a karate or TSD guy, so I only know what I've read. My understanding is that Jion is another example of a karate kata that has been adapted into Tang Soo Do. So it too has the advantage that you'd be learning a karate kata that's also a Tang Soo Do hyung, and is studied in some taekwondo schools.

I still can't believe Jion is a fifth dan form in some Tang Soo Do organizations.