Intent Yi (意)

[Same Trick52]

Here is part of it in a GIF.

In this demo, Wang Peisheng shows push hands skills without touch, "This is done by attacking his mind. I pointed here and it confused him:"

https://imgur.com/ABKzhjn

Yes it’s trickery that may work on some.

“Hey, look over there !” Then you snatch the kids candy.

It’s low level “skill”

 

[windwalker099107]

What you described with the master was about testing his listening through the finger — not the same as the pointing shown in the clip. That method isn’t a joint trick, but a way to train extending yi past the contact so you don’t get stuck on the point of touch. It's different.

 

[windwalker099107]

But interesting you assume others just have video watching experience while you post videos for us to watch and comment on, videos of masters that you have not yourself met ?

Not really an assumption.

When I post videos, they reflect something I’ve experienced or worked on myself. Others exploring similar things might find them interesting, while those who haven’t may still question or challenge what’s being shown.

What I find interesting, is not only the conclusion people draw, but the basis for it — whether it comes from direct experience or not.

 

[Same Trick52]

What you described with the master was about testing his listening through the finger — not the same as the pointing shown in the clip. That method isn’t a joint trick, but a way to train extending yi past the contact so you don’t get stuck on the point of touch. It's different.

Yes I wrote that, that the only “finger skilll” a master has shown me relatively convincingly was that interaction I described.
I’ll guess I should not comment further cause I can’t see that op vid and I can’t really understand the way you are describing what’s going on with the pointing finger “past the contact so not get stuck”.
It sound as un necessary procedure to apply

 

[Same Trick52]

Not really an assumption.

When I post videos, they reflect something I’ve experienced or worked on myself. Others exploring similar things might find them interesting, while those who haven’t may still question or challenge what’s being shown.

What I find interesting, is not only the conclusion people draw, but the basis for it — whether it comes from direct experience or not.

I do have had ppl “projecting qi” toward me to try proving a point, I’ll guess I was like a mirror reflecting it back cause they began look uneasy,

 

[windwalker099107]

In practice, “not getting stuck at the contact point” means not using force to act directly on the structure. Some might think of it as “double-weighted,” where mind and body are both fixed at the same point, creating resistance. Its opposite, “double light,” is when both collapse together — mind and body empty at once.

The finger method in the clip was just a way of training yi to extend beyond that moment so the body doesn’t lock down into either extreme. It’s one of many methods found in different lines of Taiji for working with the internal side of practice.

Thanks for the comments

 

[Marsha Larts]

What if there was a way for any two people who have never experienced what is shown in these clips to explore the concept on a level that would speak to their current understanding? Could someone who has never practiced taiji get a 'feel' for the same expressions of yi as what is shown is the clips, in a taiji context?

 

[Appledog45]

What if there was a way for any two people who have never experienced what is shown in these clips to explore the concept on a level that would speak to their current understanding? Could someone who has never practiced taiji get a 'feel' for the same expressions of yi as what is shown is the clips, in a taiji context?

In a Tai Chi context this is generally done with the practice of push hands.

I have noticed that there seems to be a kibosh on the true practice of cooperative push hands. It is getting difficult to find.

 

[Same Trick52]

The only thing cooperative in push-hands practice is the pattern agreed upon - horizontal or vertical single-hand, double-hands grasp birds tail, rolling/circling hands, stepping or stationary…and so on - within the pattern it’s free, attack and defense is a continuous presence

 

[Marsha Larts]

The only thing cooperative in push-hands practice is the pattern agreed upon - horizontal or vertical single-hand, double-hands grasp birds tail, rolling/circling hands, stepping or stationary…and so on - within the pattern it’s free, attack and defense is a continuous presence

If cooperative push hands is all it takes to cultivate the 'skill' demonstrated in the videos windwalker posted, it stands to reason that it would be more widely understood among taiji people the same way the physical aspects of the art are understood and often discussed in a lively manner.

In trying to answer the questions windwalker has asked, and in light of no answers being offered thus far in this thread (aside from Wing Woo Gar's replies to others), I thought it might be helpful to approach the topic from a direction that allows common experiences to be examined on the level of every day interactions, or at least something that could be isolated for the purpose of experimentation as a training exercise.

The questions themselves bring about a bit of introspection on what is happening, and why it's expressed differently by the teacher and the student, as noted by windwalker

 

[Appledog45]

If cooperative push hands is all it takes to cultivate the 'skill' demonstrated in the videos windwalker posted, it stands to reason that it would be more widely understood among taiji people the same way the physical aspects of the art are understood and often discussed in a lively manner.

I think you are right. Which is why very few people practice co-operative push hands, which is why so few people understand yi. For example you asked "Could someone who has never practiced taiji get a 'feel' for the same expressions of yi as what is shown is the clips, in a taiji context?" The answer is no, because what you are seeing (in the videos shown above) is not in a Tai Chi context; there is no peng and lu being demonstrated. If I was looking for a push hands video to try and demonstrate how Yi should be used I'd look at Ma Yueliang's videos, just because they're so clear (and I'm not even a Wu stylist!)

It must always begin with co-operative push hands. What trick said is also correct, but it must begin with certain rules of co-operative push hands that must be taught and must not be deviated from.

 

[windwalker099107]

@Marsha Larts


This thread could be looked at
as an "elephant" called taiji

Each person touches a part of the elephant — ear, trunk, leg, tail — and concludes, “this is what an elephant is.” None are wrong, describing what they touched. Their experience shaped what they feel… and what they do not. What one focuses on defines a practice, while other parts remain unseen. All correct depending on focus

some thoughts

If cooperative push hands is all it takes to cultivate the 'skill' demonstrated in the videos windwalker posted, it stands to reason that it would be more widely understood among taiji people the same way the physical aspects of the art are understood and often discussed in a lively manner.

good post


Push hands is what most use in the taiji world, to test what solo practice has already built.
For many, it’s one of many practices that shows how internal work applies in contact.

How it’s used depends on the focus of the training, what looks correct in one line may not be in another.
As skill deepens, the concern with “correct” or “incorrect” starts to fall away — what remains is simply whether it works in the moment.

 

[Same Trick52]

If cooperative push hands is all it takes to cultivate the 'skill' demonstrated in the videos windwalker posted, it stands to reason that it would be more widely understood among taiji people the same way the physical aspects of the art are understood and often discussed in a lively manner.

In trying to answer the questions windwalker has asked, and in light of no answers being offered thus far in this thread (aside from Wing Woo Gar's replies to others), I thought it might be helpful to approach the topic from a direction that allows common experiences to be examined on the level of every day interactions, or at least something that could be isolated for the purpose of experimentation as a training exercise.

The questions themselves bring about a bit of introspection on what is happening, and why it's expressed differently by the teacher and the student, as noted by windwalker

A very nicely composed post but I’m not sure how it relates to my post you quoted.

I absolutely dislike cooperative PH, meaning such as the common Taiji “grasp birds tail” patterned PH, I think it restrain rather than help the practitioner.
And I don’t understand the question in the OP, maybe because I can’t see the video.

You mention “everyday interactions”, that I think is the great “medium” in where to truly understand Taiji .

 

[marvin8]

A very nicely composed post but I’m not sure how it relates to my post you quoted.

I absolutely dislike cooperative PH, meaning such as the common Taiji “grasp birds tail” patterned PH, I think it restrain rather than help the practitioner.
And I don’t understand the question in the OP, maybe because I can’t see the video.

You mention “everyday interactions”, that I think is the great “medium” in where to truly understand Taiji .

I made the video of OP for you. Click volume button to unmute.

https://imgur.com/a/CHa2OMh

and the video of the longer version in my post #28...

https://imgur.com/ykvBk3a

 

[windwalker099107]

@marvin8

appreciated

 

[Xue Sheng101]

Admittedly I have not read every single post in this thread, and I had planned on not commenting at all, but I think it might be heading off the rails a bit and at times bordering mystical taijiquan magic. A whole lot of folks, particularly in the USA over think such topics.... it's not that hard, rather simple actually

Yì 意 is just intent, or meaning or it has also been used as thought
Simply put Yì 意 controls Qì 氣, (Qi being energy to simplify) and Qì 氣 controls Lì 力 (Li being force or muscular force in the human body)

But before any if this comes Shen (神) unify your Shen (Spirit, mind) with the movement. Not magical not mystical, no pointing required..

OK that's my 2 cents, 稍后见 Shāo hòu jiàn

 

[windwalker099107]

.A whole lot of folks, particularly in the USA over think such topics.... it's not that hard, rather simple actually

Yì 意 is just intent, or meaning or it has also been used as thought
Simply put Yì 意 controls Qì 氣, (Qi being energy to simplify) and Qì 氣 controls Lì 力 (Li being force or muscular force in the human body)

A maybe different perspective…

Yi 意 is often said to lead the qi, and the body follows — a common saying. A simple analogy might be a pitcher throwing a ball: his yi is on the end point, his body trained to deliver the type of pitch he intends. The “qi” could be thought of as the ball, with the body as the delivery mechanism.

What was shown in the videos, though, is quite different from that pitcher/batter analogy. The practice there is about using intent so the body doesn’t act directly on the opponent’s frame — instead it engages their internal aspects, which then influence their structure.

I find that contrast interesting. It highlights how different training approaches shape what we mean by “yi moves qi.”

If it really were “not that hard, rather simple actually”, most people wouldn’t be asking about what the videos show. They’d be sharing how they’ve done it themselves, or how they felt it from another.

IME, even those who have directly experienced it found it quite difficult to do, let alone reproduce.

 

[Xue Sheng101]

A maybe different perspective…

Yi 意 is often said to lead the qi, and the body follows — a common saying. A simple analogy might be a pitcher throwing a ball: his yi is on the end point, his body trained to deliver the type of pitch he intends. The “qi” could be thought of as the ball, with the body as the delivery mechanism.

What was shown in the videos, though, is quite different from that pitcher/batter analogy. The practice there is about using intent so the body doesn’t act directly on the opponent’s frame — instead it engages their internal aspects, which then influence their structure.

I find that contrast interesting. It highlights how different training approaches shape what we mean by “yi moves qi.”

If it really were “not that hard, rather simple actually”, most people wouldn’t be asking about what the videos show. They’d be sharing how they’ve done it themselves, or how they felt it from another.

IME, even those who have directly experienced it found it quite difficult to do, let alone reproduce.

Without Yi the ball will go nowhere, without qi the ball will go nowhere, without Li the ball will go nowhere...the ball is not Yi, Qi or Li..... Intent to throw the ball is Yi..... energy being directed to the muscles is Qi, Li are the miscles that then propell the ball

Same with the video

Yi is intent, Qi moves the body, Body (li) acts on the opponent’s frame

 

[windwalker099107]

Without Yi the ball will go nowhere, without qi the ball will go nowhere, without Li the ball will go nowhere...the ball is not Yi, Qi or Li..... Intent to throw the ball is Yi..... energy being directed to the muscles is Qi, Li are the miscles that then propell the ball

Same with the video

Yi is intent, Qi moves the body, Body (li) acts on the opponent’s frame

You don’t seem to understand what an analogy is.

An analogy compares two different things to highlight similarity — a way to explain something unfamiliar through something familiar. For example, my baseball analogy.

Your description might work in one sense, but not in another. Yi (意) is intent, Qi (氣) moves the body, and the body (Li 力) acts on the opponent’s frame. That way of thinking is external — acting on external components.


What the video shows is internal — intent interacts with the other’s internal aspects, which then affects their structure.


Wang Yongquan explained this difference clearly:

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi
Chuan

“One theory to develop jin is to concentrate Shen, Yi, and Qi into one point… after long practice it becomes a powerful but clumsy acquired force. The movements are large, direct, and restless — closer to long fist training.

But if one follows Taiji theory, the practice gradually unites Shen, Yi, and Qi into one, forming a light, round, lively jin. Its essence is qi, its requirement is emptiness and openness, not accumulation. This is Taiji jin, also called innate force.”

The teacher in the video highlights this approach.

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[Xue Sheng101]

You don’t seem to understand what an analogy is.

An analogy compares two different things to highlight similarity — a way to explain something unfamiliar through something familiar. For example, my baseball analogy.

Your description might work in one sense, but not in another. Yi (意) is intent, Qi (氣) moves the body, and the body (Li 力) acts on the opponent’s frame. That way of thinking is external — acting on external components.


What the video shows is internal — intent interacts with the other’s internal aspects, which then affects their structure.


Wang Yongquan explained this difference clearly:

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi
Chuan




The teacher in the video highlights this approach.

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You don't seem to understand Yi, Qi and Li at all..... no sense in discussing this further with you..., I await your misused/overused/condescending laughing emoji