If you could practice any Kenpo style...
- Thread starter Justin33
- Start date
dancingalone
Grandmaster
If I were a younger man and had the free time, I'd pick up some of the ideas from Choki Motobu's system of Okinawan Kempo. If you mean more of the Hawaiian kenpo/kempo systems I like EPAK and some of the Kajukenbo styles.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
None of those.
I'm really a Goju-ryu karate guy but I have the utmost of respect for kenpo. We all mostly started off the Chuan Fa tree at some point. I'm a fan of what Ed Parker said about pure styles (no such thing).
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
What is it that you find interesting about the Tracy lineage?
mainly just the techniques I've seen on YouTube.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
You’ve got an EPAK background, yes? How far along are you? The Tracy curriculum is very similar in many respects to the EPAK curriculum. Tracy’s just has more, and often created multiple variations to cover for possible attack variations. I think both issues can become cumbersome in a curriculum. But sure, if you are interested in seeing the differences and having perspective on alternatives, I can understand that. It’s easy to let yourself get spread too thin, so keep that in mind.
I started EPAK back in '96...I've learned, forgotten, then relearned the whole system at least twice that I remember...I'm just looking for new ideas...I saw the Tracy technique "uncoiling viper"... That was kinda cool... Are all the techniques in the Tracy system so short? No extensions? I am aware of ABC versions and what not.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I had to look up uncoiling viper. It’s part of sandan, I was working on Nidan when I left Kenpo so I hadn’t learned it. I have a brief write up on it, but having trouble visualizing it from that.
Some of the techs in Tracys are very long, some are very short, some have no variations, some have two or three and a couple have a dozen or so. Ten techs for yellow, thirty each for orange thru fourth black, and fifth black has forty-one if I remember correctly. The claim was 600 if you count all the variations. I never bothered to verify that count. It’s a lot.
Tracy’s has all the numbered kata that EPAK has, but only a couple of the “sets”. But also kata brought in from other sources, making for a very long list as well.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
Extensions - As follow-up strikes after the initial combo (which represent the basic minimum effective response to the attack) they continue the flow of your counter attack and so are a good practice for economical movement. This is beneficial.
They can be, I think, sometimes overdone. There comes a point when events overtake the technique series. ("No plan survives first contact.") So, in actual application, after the first few moves, subsequent technique is increasingly difficult to land (unless one practices multiple variants and extensions which adds perhaps an unwieldly complexity.)
Parker liked to compare kenpo to language - techniques are letters, combined into words, then sentences... In the case of long extensions, there is the danger of having "run-on sentences," going beyond effective communication. Some renown authors have the style of long sentences and paragraphs. Others write in shorter, clipped, sentences. Which one is best is for the individual reader to decide. Much like MA styles.
I'm not saying one is better than the other, but I have my personal preference. (I can understand, though, the strategy of many, swarming, attacks being correct for a particular opponent.) The danger I see, however, is the mindset of practicing long, multi technique, extensions. IMO, this can foster the mindset of relying on quantity of strikes, rather than quality. Also, the longer a technique series goes on, the greater the chances for X factors to influence the outcome.
I'll finish by saying that there is nothing wrong with extensions per se, but one should still have the mindset (and tactics) to end the exchange with as few moves as possible.
They can be, I think, sometimes overdone. There comes a point when events overtake the technique series. ("No plan survives first contact.") So, in actual application, after the first few moves, subsequent technique is increasingly difficult to land (unless one practices multiple variants and extensions which adds perhaps an unwieldly complexity.)
Parker liked to compare kenpo to language - techniques are letters, combined into words, then sentences... In the case of long extensions, there is the danger of having "run-on sentences," going beyond effective communication. Some renown authors have the style of long sentences and paragraphs. Others write in shorter, clipped, sentences. Which one is best is for the individual reader to decide. Much like MA styles.
I'm not saying one is better than the other, but I have my personal preference. (I can understand, though, the strategy of many, swarming, attacks being correct for a particular opponent.) The danger I see, however, is the mindset of practicing long, multi technique, extensions. IMO, this can foster the mindset of relying on quantity of strikes, rather than quality. Also, the longer a technique series goes on, the greater the chances for X factors to influence the outcome.
I'll finish by saying that there is nothing wrong with extensions per se, but one should still have the mindset (and tactics) to end the exchange with as few moves as possible.
Honestly, I wouldn't. I think I'm done with kem/npo, at least for a long while. There are too many techniques to learn, which is fine, but at some point there are better things to do than stick with learning more remote memorization. It's also why I never learned any of the post-black belt techniques, despite being told to many times; I felt that I gained more from practicing that which I already knew. So there wouldn't be a benefit to learn similar techniques from another style in the same fashion.
For shaolin kempo...not including variations, and different schools taught slightly different ones as they broke away at certain points. With my main school, there was between 10-12 techniques (3-4 'combos', 3-4 'kempos' and 3-4 grab defense techniques), at each belt. There were 11 total belts, so it averaged to probably about 120 open-hand techniques, plus forms, kata, variations, and weapon techniques that were taught randomly but before black. Even just that was more than I'd need to know.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
and some are what is referred to as "word salad". a whole bunch of words strung together that really have no meaning and only have a purpose of filling the empty space with sound while trying to come across as deep and important.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Yeah, the general approach that is common in the Hawaiian/Chow lineages is something that I finally decided just doesn't work for me. That was a major factor in my decision to not keep with it. I find that more mileage with a smaller curriculum is better for me.
punisher73
Senior Master
I would like to learn Prof. Chow's style. Not Kara-Ho Kempo that has a lot of other stuff in it, but the style/approach passed through Bill Chun and his son (and others).
Or the Emperado method of Kajukenbo.
Or the Emperado method of Kajukenbo.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
After 3 years of learning a foreign language, one has enough vocabulary and grammar to get by in that country. There will be many words you do not know, but chances are you will know a word close to it, or be able describe with other words what you want to say. It will not be eloquent, but it will get the job done, as long you have a good handle on what you do know.
I learned extensive vocabulary studying for my grad school entrance exam. I learned over 100 new words - of course, none of them were on the test. Of those 100 words, I remember none. Never needed them, never missed them. They just don't come up often enough to be worth the effort of me remembering and practicing them. And if I did, the person I was speaking to wouldn't know them. So, low reward for much effort.
Sure, some words provide subtle shades of nuance, context, meaning or emotion. But fighting is not that subtle. There is nothing nuanced about an elbow to the jaw or a kick to the nuts. Thirty hand and foot techniques (combined) should be enough to "communicate" effectively in a fight. If you have those down good, you're halfway to victory.
The other half is having those techniques where and when they have to be. Positioning, movement, footwork and angles have to be mastered as well. But if you're busy practicing move after move, there's less time to work on this vital aspect. Perfect a couple handfuls of technique and how to land them and you should be good to go.
I learned extensive vocabulary studying for my grad school entrance exam. I learned over 100 new words - of course, none of them were on the test. Of those 100 words, I remember none. Never needed them, never missed them. They just don't come up often enough to be worth the effort of me remembering and practicing them. And if I did, the person I was speaking to wouldn't know them. So, low reward for much effort.
Sure, some words provide subtle shades of nuance, context, meaning or emotion. But fighting is not that subtle. There is nothing nuanced about an elbow to the jaw or a kick to the nuts. Thirty hand and foot techniques (combined) should be enough to "communicate" effectively in a fight. If you have those down good, you're halfway to victory.
The other half is having those techniques where and when they have to be. Positioning, movement, footwork and angles have to be mastered as well. But if you're busy practicing move after move, there's less time to work on this vital aspect. Perfect a couple handfuls of technique and how to land them and you should be good to go.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I’ll pare it down even further. Three punches, three kicks, three joint manipulations, three grab releases and an understanding of the leverage and how to apply it. Take those things and understand how to spontaneously use them and mix them and apply them creatively, and you can handle anything that is likely to come your way.
If you really want to add some depth, then three elbows, two knees, two blocking/deflecting/parrying techniques and two trips/sweeps.
Similar threads
- superdave
- Kenpo / Kempo - General
