Kenpo Hands

[Danjo]

The phrase "Kenpo/Kempo Hands" has been used by various practitioners for years. I have a video with that title by Larry Tatum and also by Nick Cerio. However, they are quite different in application, though both are using multiple hand striking. I've seen the lightning-fast strikes by some that do not seem to be very powerful, and the very powerful strikes by some that do not seem to be very fast. Here's the question: how do you tend to strike when employing "Kenpo Hands"? Do you favor speed over power, or the opposite? Do you favor a rapid flurry of less powerful strikes or a few well placed powerful shots? Do you favor actual blows delivered by the hand, or clawing and poking type strikes?

 

[Touch Of Death]

The phrase "Kenpo/Kempo Hands" has been used by various practitioners for years. I have a video with that title by Larry Tatum and also by Nick Cerio. However, they are quite different in application, though both are using multiple hand striking. I've seen the lightning-fast strikes by some that do not seem to be very powerful, and the very powerful strikes by some that do not seem to be very fast. Here's the question: how do you tend to strike when employing "Kenpo Hands"? Do you favor speed over power, or the opposite? Do you favor a rapid flurry of less powerful strikes or a few well placed powerful shots? Do you favor actual blows delivered by the hand, or clawing and poking type strikes?

I prefer low energy shots with good body alignment... I'm Lazy.
sean

 

[LawDog]

I prefer a short range power fist strike, one that utilizes many chamber points. The faster long range fist strikes are needed to set everything up so that you can apply the heavy hitter.

 

[Mike Att]

I think one of the biggest problems in kenpo/kempo and one of the reasons many view it as an unrealistic "slap art" is that everyone wants to blow through their techniques a thousand miles per hour with no consideration to power. You just have to checkout some of the "crap" on youtube to see that. Most would be better served to slow down a little and put some stopping power behind their blows.

To me, speed with nothing behind it is not that impressive, power will get someone's attention and speed and power..well, thats very impressive.

You mentioned Tatum and Cerio, I have the cerio tapes as well. I like how Cerio does not blow through the techs as fast as he can. His strikes are deliberate, and he uses great body positioning, which, b/c of his size, is something he needed to do.

Everybody tries to be Tatum but very few can really master or achieve that combination of speed and power. Though, we all keep trying.

 

[jdinca]

One of the problems is the confusion between doing a SD technique fast, and doing the strikes within the technique fast. What I mean by this is that people, especially newer students, tend to rush a technique, thinking that they're doing a better job than they really are. The problem with this is that the strikes are never fully completed. What we stress in our system is that power comes through speed. This is one of the reasons a smaller person can be effective against a larger person. The key is making sure that the strike is completed. With the "soft hand" concept, the muscles are kept loose until just before impact, which allows for greater speed. This is coupled with timing and technique to be as efficient as possible. If you never give yourself the chance to tighten at the moment of impact and deliver the power generated to the target, you're not going to be nearly as effective.

Someone who knows how to move quickly may look impressive but that can also lead to the comments that kenpo is a "slap art", if they're not completing their strikes. Someone who knows how to move quickly and complete the strike will definitely stand above the rest because you can see the power delivered to the target.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think one of the biggest problems in kenpo/kempo and one of the reasons many view it as an unrealistic "slap art" is that everyone wants to blow through their techniques a thousand miles per hour with no consideration to power. You just have to checkout some of the "crap" on youtube to see that. Most would be better served to slow down a little and put some stopping power behind their blows.

To me, speed with nothing behind it is not that impressive, power will get someone's attention and speed and power..well, thats very impressive.

You mentioned Tatum and Cerio, I have the cerio tapes as well. I like how Cerio does not blow through the techs as fast as he can. His strikes are deliberate, and he uses great body positioning, which, b/c of his size, is something he needed to do.

Everybody tries to be Tatum but very few can really master or achieve that combination of speed and power. Though, we all keep trying.

Every one what? Speed for speed's sake is ok on the minor shots, they are supposed to be a set up.

God Speed
sean

 

[Mike Att]

Sean, what would you classify as a minor shot?

 

[Carol]

Personally I prefer power strikes and I prefer to avoid pokes and claws. All those reflexes for protecting my fingers that I learned while earning a music degree...they never really went away.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The first two moves of every tech are technicaly minor shots, but if I may qualify, your are not truely fast without good alignment.
Sean

 

[Mike Att]

If you are speaking of a quick eye jab or shuto to the throat, than I would agree that getting in to stun or surprise the guy is fine. I think I was a little confused on the term "minor" shots, being that the effectivness of the first two strike/moves are more often that not going to dictate the outcome of the rest of the encounter.

I kind of like the phrase "lead with spead but devour with power."

 

[Touch Of Death]

No, I'm not actually. So much of what we call power has to do with your dimensional stage of action, weapon choice for that dimensional stage, target choice, and, as I have said, alignment, that you really don't need to muscle this stuff.
Sean

 

[kidswarrior]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this is where and why I feel so fortunate to have cross trained in Kung Fu San Soo with my Kempo. KFSS is practiced slowly, yet when demonstrated shows amazing speed and unbelievable power (I've still got bruises from practices as much as five years ago at maybe 1/3 speed/power).

Jimmy Woo (the founder of Kung Fu San Soo) said to go fast, practice slowly. Here's what I think he meant (it works out as a syllogism, for the literati out there ). Practice the basics slowly (with good form--many have mentioned alignment); then over time, this proper, relaxed form breeds speed (muscles are not tightened to restrict movement--some have mentioned newer people going fast and wrongly thinking they're generating power); and finally, good form plus speed generates power, at least in the body-fighting arts, which put some weight into the strikes.

Too much of the Kempo I was taught was about arm power. In another lifetime, my boxing manager would equate this arm power to a jab--good in its place, but not anything like a hook. When he talked about the left hook, his eyes lit up behind those coke bottle lenses (he'd been a ranked middle weight back in the day). He made it his trademark because the hook may only travel a few inches, but with the trained body behind it, and to the right target, it became a knockout punch.

Now is there a place for the quick strike, the jab if you will? I agree with those who have said, Yes, as a spear hand or open tiger's mouth (web hand) to the throat; no need for body power there, arm power is more than enough. Same with eye rakes, fingers to eyes or throat, etc. But I wouldn't use these or count on these to work as a flurry (doesn't mean others couldn't do so, but I wouldn't bet my life on me being able to do this). If I get in the first strike, one of these would be a very fine start. But if we're already in it, one or two and at the most three good Kung Fu San Soo type shots should do the trick. If not, I may be in for a long ride.

 

[jdinca]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this is where and why I feel so fortunate to have cross trained in Kung Fu San Soo with my Kempo. KFSS is practiced slowly, yet when demonstrated shows amazing speed and unbelievable power (I've still got bruises from practices as much as five years ago at maybe 1/3 speed/power).

Jimmy Woo (the founder of Kung Fu San Soo) said to go fast, practice slowly. Here's what I think he meant (it works out as a syllogism, for the literati out there ). Practice the basics slowly (with good form--many have mentioned alignment); then over time, this proper, relaxed form breeds speed (muscles are not tightened to restrict movement--some have mentioned newer people going fast and wrongly thinking they're generating power); and finally, good form plus speed generates power, at least in the body-fighting arts, which put some weight into the strikes.

Too much of the Kempo I was taught was about arm power. In another lifetime, my boxing manager would equate this arm power to a jab--good in its place, but not anything like a hook. When he talked about the left hook, his eyes lit up behind those coke bottle lenses (he'd been a ranked middle weight back in the day). He made it his trademark because the hook may only travel a few inches, but with the trained body behind it, and to the right target, it became a knockout punch.

Now is there a place for the quick strike, the jab if you will? I agree with those who have said, Yes, as a spear hand or open tiger's mouth (web hand) to the throat; no need for body power there, arm power is more than enough. Same with eye rakes, fingers to eyes or throat, etc. But I wouldn't use these or count on these to work as a flurry (doesn't mean others couldn't do so, but I wouldn't bet my life on me being able to do this). If I get in the first strike, one of these would be a very fine start. But if we're already in it, one or two and at the most three good Kung Fu San Soo type shots should do the trick. If not, I may be in for a long ride.

Jimmy Woo had it right. To me, when kenpo teachers teach arm power, they're missing the boat. Even a rigid claw to the eye needs to have some body movement behind it to be anatomically correct and develop maximum speed. The speed developed is the same as it would be if it were a punch. What is different is the hand strike chosen and how the body is utilized to it a more powerful strike. "Muscleing" it, for most people, will only result in a slower strike and as a result, less power.

 

[Tames D]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this is where and why I feel so fortunate to have cross trained in Kung Fu San Soo with my Kempo. KFSS is practiced slowly, yet when demonstrated shows amazing speed and unbelievable power (I've still got bruises from practices as much as five years ago at maybe 1/3 speed/power).

Jimmy Woo (the founder of Kung Fu San Soo) said to go fast, practice slowly. Here's what I think he meant (it works out as a syllogism, for the literati out there ). Practice the basics slowly (with good form--many have mentioned alignment); then over time, this proper, relaxed form breeds speed (muscles are not tightened to restrict movement--some have mentioned newer people going fast and wrongly thinking they're generating power); and finally, good form plus speed generates power, at least in the body-fighting arts, which put some weight into the strikes.

Too much of the Kempo I was taught was about arm power. In another lifetime, my boxing manager would equate this arm power to a jab--good in its place, but not anything like a hook. When he talked about the left hook, his eyes lit up behind those coke bottle lenses (he'd been a ranked middle weight back in the day). He made it his trademark because the hook may only travel a few inches, but with the trained body behind it, and to the right target, it became a knockout punch.

Now is there a place for the quick strike, the jab if you will? I agree with those who have said, Yes, as a spear hand or open tiger's mouth (web hand) to the throat; no need for body power there, arm power is more than enough. Same with eye rakes, fingers to eyes or throat, etc. But I wouldn't use these or count on these to work as a flurry (doesn't mean others couldn't do so, but I wouldn't bet my life on me being able to do this). If I get in the first strike, one of these would be a very fine start. But if we're already in it, one or two and at the most three good Kung Fu San Soo type shots should do the trick. If not, I may be in for a long ride.

Jeez, I swear I can still feel the bruises Jimmy gave me 30 years ago.

 

[kidswarrior]

Jimmy Woo had it right. To me, when kenpo teachers teach arm power, they're missing the boat. Even a rigid claw to the eye needs to have some body movement behind it to be anatomically correct and develop maximum speed. The speed developed is the same as it would be if it were a punch.

I just learned something huge here! Truly an Aha! moment. I have practiced and taught the Kempo strikes such as claws, rigid fingers (as spear hand), etc. with some body movement, but hadn't put it together. Now I see, for my kempo at least, these were never just arm strikes. Thanks, jdinca! :asian:

"Muscleing" it, for most people, will only result in a slower strike and as a result, less power.

Exactly. Power developed from relaxation--slow repitition of good form, which leads to relaxed speed, which in turn = power generated--is not even close to the same as 'muscling it,' which implies struggling to make arm power enough.

 

[kidswarrior]

Jeez, I swear I can still feel the bruises Jimmy gave me 30 years ago.

:lfao: I'm sure! I only got it from his first gen. masters--have just led a charmed life, I guess. But I have seen him on tape.

 

[Tames D]

:lfao: I'm sure! I only got it from his first gen. masters--have just led a charmed life, I guess. But I have seen him on tape.

You can imagine how scary it was for me, being a teenager at the time.

 

[LawDog]

I am curious, it has been mentioned on this thread that kenpo uses arm power, in what system(s) of kempo/kenpo is this done? All of the Kempo/Kenpo systems that I am aware of advocate the use of multi muscle groups, when possible, applied into all of their strikes and blocks. Speed and power by technique is a golden rule.
On many vid clips I have seen the slapping thing, I attribute this to an individual who is trying to impress.
:supcool:

 

[MJS]

The phrase "Kenpo/Kempo Hands" has been used by various practitioners for years. I have a video with that title by Larry Tatum and also by Nick Cerio. However, they are quite different in application, though both are using multiple hand striking. I've seen the lightning-fast strikes by some that do not seem to be very powerful, and the very powerful strikes by some that do not seem to be very fast. Here's the question: how do you tend to strike when employing "Kenpo Hands"? Do you favor speed over power, or the opposite? Do you favor a rapid flurry of less powerful strikes or a few well placed powerful shots? Do you favor actual blows delivered by the hand, or clawing and poking type strikes?

I would think that many of us have people that we look up to and do our best to mimic. However, the fact remains that each of us is unique and chances are, no matter how hard we try, we are not going to move 100% like the person in question. Some people just have a natural skill that we can't replicate. I have not seen either tape you mention, but I have seen Larry Tatum move, both on clips and in person one time.

As for the question: I favor well placed, powerful shots. Why? IMHO, I'd rather have my shots make more of an impact rather than blitz someone with shots that are not going to have much effect. Don't get me wrong, I still feel that speed is a part of the application, but IMO, it should not take priority of quality shots.

As to what type of shots: Punches have their place like all shots. Personally, I prefer open handed shots. Heel palm, rakes, pokes, elbows.

Mike

 

[MJS]

One of the problems is the confusion between doing a SD technique fast, and doing the strikes within the technique fast. What I mean by this is that people, especially newer students, tend to rush a technique, thinking that they're doing a better job than they really are. The problem with this is that the strikes are never fully completed. What we stress in our system is that power comes through speed. This is one of the reasons a smaller person can be effective against a larger person. The key is making sure that the strike is completed. With the "soft hand" concept, the muscles are kept loose until just before impact, which allows for greater speed. This is coupled with timing and technique to be as efficient as possible. If you never give yourself the chance to tighten at the moment of impact and deliver the power generated to the target, you're not going to be nearly as effective.

Someone who knows how to move quickly may look impressive but that can also lead to the comments that kenpo is a "slap art", if they're not completing their strikes. Someone who knows how to move quickly and complete the strike will definitely stand above the rest because you can see the power delivered to the target.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this is where and why I feel so fortunate to have cross trained in Kung Fu San Soo with my Kempo. KFSS is practiced slowly, yet when demonstrated shows amazing speed and unbelievable power (I've still got bruises from practices as much as five years ago at maybe 1/3 speed/power).

Jimmy Woo (the founder of Kung Fu San Soo) said to go fast, practice slowly. Here's what I think he meant (it works out as a syllogism, for the literati out there ). Practice the basics slowly (with good form--many have mentioned alignment); then over time, this proper, relaxed form breeds speed (muscles are not tightened to restrict movement--some have mentioned newer people going fast and wrongly thinking they're generating power); and finally, good form plus speed generates power, at least in the body-fighting arts, which put some weight into the strikes.

These 2 posts are very true! I couldn't agree more! This is the method I use when I go thru my techniques. I'll run thru them slow at first. I want to make sure that not only do I have good form, but also that I'm targetting my shots properly. I may not finish a tech. in .3 seconds, but my shots are reaching their intended targets.

Mike