Hybrid Martial Arts

[Cryozombie]

didn't someone say that the booj is actually 9 different schools? that would be hybred if you ask me.

peace

No.

Hybrid arts take "This from this, That from that" and blends them together... Like RBWI mixing Some Hapkido, Some Ninpo and coming up with something "new"

The Bujinkan "Organization" contains the COMPLETE teachings of all 9 schools, so it is not a "Hybrid" It doesnt "mix and match".

It is theorectically possible to JUST learn, say, Koto Ryu. Or Just learn Kukishinden... Not simply Techniques A C D F from Koto Ryu and B E G from Kukishin... see the difference?

 

[heretic888]

Not to mention, all of the nine arts in the Bujinkan are actually Japanese in origin.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

A video can't give you corrections on your errors, weak points and misconceptions. Negative feedback training rules.:whip:

The type of training done at seminars differs in many ways from the type of training that is conducted on a weekly basis, and is missing several important components. Things like these are impossible to know without having experienced regular training. One thing seminars are good for though, is the possibility to train with lots of other people. If you just train with a certain number of people all the time you'll develop bad habits. Ironically, it's been my experience that people rarely train with people they didn't know before at seminars.

 

[gmunoz]

What if one acquired all the comments, corrections, advice from their teacher?

 

[gmunoz]

The consensus on Martial Talk, after reading many threads on the subject, and not just in the Ninjutsu section, seems to be that Video and Book training are excellent supplements, but not very good substitutes for "real" instruction. MOST martial artists would tell you the same, I think. It does not invalidate your Video Training, but it does lack a certain element... It is much like "1 way communication" in that it is ineffective when compared to "2 way communication" (Sorry, thats my years of stupid management training coming to the surface.)

As I have stated previously, I would prefer a dojo where I could go to. Unfortunately, there is not one close to my place of residency. When there is I may choose to go that route. One thing I disagree on is that there IS 2 way communication. The only thing with it is that it is delayed. I do get feedback though. This seems to be the same argument university professors have with schools doing internet university courses. Traditionalists scared for their jobs hate it, and more contempararies think it is a viable option. Drawbacks definitely, but still viable. My $.02.

Surgery by correspondence course? Well... yeah. Whether we like it or not, it's coming! Heard of it already on the way. The challenge is getting that hand's on practice as well (training partner). But, without getting into all the details, correspondence courses in more intricate studies is here. Technology is great!

 

[Cryozombie]

What if one acquired all the comments, corrections, advice from their teacher?

Like feedback when you send tapes back to test? Thats helpful. Not the same as being corrected BEFORE you commit bad habits to... for lack of a better term... Muscle memory, but definatly a step above just learning from a tape.

 

[heretic888]

One thing I disagree on is that there IS 2 way communication. The only thing with it is that it is delayed. I do get feedback though. This seems to be the same argument university professors have with schools doing internet university courses. Traditionalists scared for their jobs hate it, and more contempararies think it is a viable option. Drawbacks definitely, but still viable. My $.02.

These are comparing apples and oranges, in my opinion.

Transmission of intellectual knowledge via long distance is not the same as transmission of budo. And, in any event, having taken both regular college courses and long-distance courses, I can definately assure you that the latter is far inferior.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

What if one acquired all the comments, corrections, advice from their teacher?

Then one would be enrolled in the training conducted at an actual dojo.
Hatsumi sensei has stated himself that his art cannot be learned through video. I've never met a skilled practitioner who has been taught only by books and/or video. But I've met several who thought they had...

When I was younger I and a friend practiced aikido through books. Only after visiting an actual aikido dojo did we realize that we'd fooled ourselves thinking we'd learned anything worthwhile. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is an energy based system, and learning such systems without physical contact with various skilled as well as basic-level practitioners is an oxymoron.

There were no dojos where Stephen Hayes or Bo Munthe lived originally either. The same goes for most places around the world where the Bujinkan thrives nowadays. Your chances of learning are all dictated by dedication.

 

[Cryozombie]

One thing I disagree on is that there IS 2 way communication. The only thing with it is that it is delayed. I do get feedback though.

Thats Multiple steps of One Way communication, actually. Two way communication indicates both paries are involved in the communication and have a chance to communicate. Even what we are doing here is in actuallity only one way communication...

But I do get what you are saying.

 

[Cryozombie]

Then one would be enrolled in the training conducted at an actual dojo.
Hatsumi sensei has stated himself that his art cannot be learned through video.

There were no dojos where Stephen Hayes or Bo Munthe lived originally either. The same goes for most places around the world where the Bujinkan thrives nowadays. Your chances of learning are all dictated by dedication.

He's not a Bujinkan student, you cannot hold him to the same standards or statements from Hatsumi, that is unfair. If Stephan Hayes says he can train that way, he is learning Toshindo, not Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Hatsumi's statements about his art do not matter, as thats not what he is learning.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

He's not a Bujinkan student, you cannot hold him to the same standards or statements from Hatsumi, that is unfair. If Stephan Hayes says he can train that way, he is learning Toshindo, not Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Hatsumi's statements about his art do not matter, as thats not what he is learning.

Technically, since what Hayes is teaching is an interpretation of what he learned from Hatsumi sensei, I'd say the same principle applies. But that's just me.

 

[Enson]

Not to mention, all of the nine arts in the Bujinkan are actually Japanese in origin.

then that makes it unstoppable!

A video can't give you corrections on your errors, weak points and misconceptions. Negative feedback training rules.:whip:

don't you think that you are stating the obvious? i think the teacher/training partner/club leader helps you point out your errors.

The consensus on Martial Talk, after reading many threads on the subject, and not just in the Ninjutsu section, seems to be that Video and Book training are excellent supplements, but not very good substitutes for "real" instruction. MOST martial artists would tell you the same, I think

well i think consensus are good for voting for the president, but not for personal opinion. its not a majority rule thing here just what people prefer. remember if you don't think/agree with gmunoz/shogun's method of study then you personally don't agree. he is still a martial artist and if hayes gives him rank he obviously earned it. who are we to say that they have to play by our rules? nobody thats who!:angry:

These are comparing apples and oranges, in my opinion.

arn't they both fruit? hmmm thats weird. i see nothing wrong with distance learning and going to seminars. i do believe a training partner is required and continous instruction from other practicioners is important.

rmember that we are all just practicioners of whatever art we study. not the inventors/an shu/soke/etc. just simple practicioners. why do we find it so easy to put down other's way of studying? what makes us qualified to pounce on others that don't do what we do... "you don't live in japan"... "your soke isn't japanese", "your master is too young", "you might steal our techniques". we all just study an established art already. why is it so hard to exchange thoughts and what we are learning? we are just small fish. respect others for what they have done and people will respect you.
"nobody cares how much you know, until they know how much you care". john c. maxwell (leadership guru)

peace

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

don't you think that you are stating the obvious? i think the teacher/training partner/club leader helps you point out your errors.

As I said before, there are things that cannot be dealt with purely through seminars.

i see nothing wrong with distance learning and going to seminars.

Me neither. As long as it's a supplement to regular training.

why do we find it so easy to put down other's way of studying?

If Rick Tew hadn't had a problem with the so called Bujinkan "superman punch" perhaps he'd still be in it today.

 

[AnimEdge]

everyone is so picky i think this had strayed from the original point of eather or not Modern Ninjutsu shoudl be consedered a Western Art (USA, England, whatever) sence from what i know is there is no 'Modern' ninjutsu in japan just the traditional Ryus you have been talking about, my guess is when a westerner went there or even when one of them came to the west they probly thought 'Ya know what i can do that better' and they start changing the art, from what i know about RBWI(whitch is what i am learning just under a diffrent name, long story) is that he left there came back and did not like the eastern relgion in it and did not like how it was taught and thus he came up with RBWI whitch is consdered a Modern Ninjutsu even though Bussey states that he doesnt want to be know for ninjutsu but Ninjutsu is what it closly resembles and is most strongly based off of so thats what it has been uh 'nicked named' i woudl guess, technicly from what i have researched RBWI is technicly should be a western art, but its not, it is consedered Modern Ninjutsu

Take for example Japanese Anime has a distict look to it, big eyes so on so on, now it has thus become popular in the states to where even American Animation is mimicing it, like example theres a anime knock of called Teen Titan, i hate this show and i view it as ripping off Japanese Anime though i know it is based strongly off Anime but is Americanly Done, now i think that Anime should stick to Japan and if we wanted some american animation done in that style we shoudl pay them or send our animators tehre to train in that style and not to come back and try and mix it and so on.

You might be thinking wtf? well i have a point:
Anime that is coming from japan is like traditional Ninjutsu , it changes and updates itself with time over there but its generaly the same. Now this Anime like Ninjutsu was brought to the states, first no one like it, then theres suddenly a craze(Ninja Mania if you may), and so people start mimicing this style of art: anime(ninjutsu) eather trying to take points from this style and place it into tehres or just taking the style (anime/ninjutsu) and adding there own stuff in to it, now the ones that that add stuff to there own are less noticed, they dont call tehre selfs ninjutsu, they could be a jkendo class taht saw a good ninjutsu move or whatever and added it to tehres, but the ones taht take taht art, eather by going to japan and learning it or not is like Modern Ninjutsu, its based off of it but its like a american form and so on, now just like in this Traditional/Modern Ninjutsu war.

Some people think that it should stay in japan or be so close to that japanese style to where it might as well been done in japan, now i agree with that on Anime, i hate this new 'modern' american anime, i find it to be disrespectfull and copying, just liek im sure your traditional ninjutsu think about modern, you think that we are discracing it and so on, whitch is fine you can have your opinion, but once again i hate this new Americanized version of Anime but yet im also loving Modern Ninjutsu, in the end its about a persons opinion on it taht matters, unless, ya know a style just so obviosly sucks

 

[gmunoz]

If Rick Tew hadn't had a problem with the so called Bujinkan "superman punch" perhaps he'd still be in it today.

Is that the "pinky strike" everyone says is so effective?

Now the sensei bashing begins! Don't believe Rick Tew has ever been in Buj.

 

[Kizaru]

i hate this new 'modern' american anime, i find it to be disrespectfull and copying, ... unless, ya know a style just so obviosly sucks

Well let's look at it from another perspective, shall we?

Say someone went off and studied a little Buddhism, some Taoism, Islam, Catholicism, Kenyan Bantu Shamanism and some Eastern European Wicca. Now this person not only doesn't go to the countries of origins of these traditions but for whatever reason, they don't get ordained, indoctrinated, qualified, blessed, baptized or anything in any of these religious traditions either. Then, they decide they have a more "modern" approach and head off to form their own religion calling it "Roman Catholic Wicca". Completely disregarding the question as to wether or not this new religion "obviously sucks" or not, should it be grouped in with the Roman Catholic faith? If so, what would the Pope think of "throwing bones" at the start of mass, or reciting the Hanya Shingyo (Heart Sutra) instead of the Lord's Prayer?

Sure they've all got similarities, and are generally all trying to accomplish the same goal, but they have very different ways of going about it, don't you think? Wouldn't this "Hybrid" approach be better off as being refered to as it's own entity rather than a branch of "modern" Catholiscm unsanctioned by the Vatican or as a sect of "Civilized" Bantu Shamanism?

One more note, Japanese martial arts are refered to as "ryu", a "flow", as are tea ceremony, dance, flower arranging etc. They begin with basic patterns and go from there. Once the basic patterns have been learned, the student learns to improvise, then if modifications are necessary to keep it working, they're added. They start from a base of knowledge and flow from there. When the flow stops, the tradition dies. Modern American hybrid systems are ecclectic, the whole fundamental base is altogther different, even if the end goal is similar.

That's where I think the friction is. That's why I think the modern "ninjutsu" section should be transplanted.

鬼猿

 

[Seig]

Wow, you guys really like to split hairs.

I'm going to give some input, and before anyone spouts off, think about it. My instructor and I live about 1500 miles apart. I see him two to four times a year. I speak with him on the phone nearly every day. I have most of our lessons videotaped, with my mistakes and his corrections and all. I have our curriculum in written format, which was transmitted to me in electronic format. I said all that to say this. I don't care how much you talk or read, without sufficient experience to understand what you are hearing or reading, you cannot progress in your skills.

I have taken both online and regular college classes and find that I learned far more in my online classes then I ever did in a class room. Why? I was forced to do far more research than I would have been in a traditional setting.

The over all point is this, all communications methods have validity. You must decide what it is you are trying to acheive and the best means to do so.

In MY OPINION anyone with less than 3 to 5 years of actual hands on instruction does not have sufficient experience to make long distance martial arts learning effective.

One of the main arguments here is what is traditional versus what is not. We, the admin team, have been very clear in that guide line. If it is traceable and of verifiable Japanese lineage, it is "traditonal" otherwise it is not. One argument I see underlying this entire fight that seems to encompass everythread is not what is traditonal and what is modern but what is valid and what it not.

What makes a martial art valid? Does it work? If you can answer yes via your own experience then yes, it is valid. If, due to your own experience, you cannot truthfully answer that in the affirmative, then it is probably not valid. You cannot take someone else's word for their "combat experience" unless it is documented, somewhere.
What do I mean by that? Simply, if you were to do an thorough back round check of me, you would find that I have been in lots of altercations, from middle school on up til a few years ago. There are school records, police reports, etc. Anyone can be a cyber bad ***. How many of you spent much time in the chat rooms when the internet was first gaining it's popularity? How many people told you were they were a BB in TKD but couldn't name the white belt form? How many were "BBs in 'Karate'" but could not name a system? See where I am going?

There needs to be more exchange of information and less urinating on one another's shoes.

Seig

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

The fact remains that these so-called modern ninjutsu styles, due to their referring to themselves as ninjutsu, are based on a false assumption - namely that ninjutsu in itself has anything with physical combat training to do. If you continually refer to a type of training along the lines of punching, kicking, grappling, breaking, locking, choking, sweeping rolling, jumping, weapons usage etc. in this day and age, there is reason to believe you don't know what you're talking about.

I seriously doubt the Bujinkan has anything to benefit from exchanging knowledge with either other X-kan or "Modern Ninjutsu" styles. Not while we've got people like Hatsumi sensei and the Japanese shihans around.
I don't remember where I read it, but somewhere I saw that Rick Tew had written a short text about his enrollment in the Bujinkan and how he'd been put off by the traditional "lunge punch/superman punch" that is used in training. Also, he seems to have had opinions about the kenjutsu training he had witnessed there. So he went off to do his own thing.
In other words, he didn't stick around long enough to put it into perspective. There is an immense wealth of knowledge available within the Bujinkan, probably more than I'll ever know, but the only way to tap into it is by thorough training and hard work. Even people who have trained with Hatsumi sensei since the 60's continue to do so nowadays.

 

[Kizaru]

Wow, you guys really like to split hairs.
Seig

Wow. Thanks for the resume.

I guess I wasn't clear enough with my original post. My question is, "Do you think it's modern ninjutsu or hybrid martial arts being represented in the Ninjutsu section of the Japanese Martial Arts Area on Martialtalk.com?".

If we want to discuss the validity of distance learning, let's start a thread on that.

Until then, let's keep the conversation on track.

Gassho.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I think Seigs response was in reply to several posts in the #20-#30 range here.