Hybrid Arts

KPM

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First, one could say that almost every "traditional" martial art started out as a hybrid art. I doubt any of them were truly created completely from "scratch." Most are a combination of 2 or more pre-existing arts, or at least were influenced significantly by more than one pre-existing art. Wing Chun is said to be "snake" and "crane." Many think that it started out as a crane off-shoot that was then combined with a snake system. That would make Wing Chun a "hybrid art" at its origins. Weng Chun claims a direct link to Shaolin and to be a distillation of several of the Shaolin animal styles. That would make it a "hybrid art" at its origins as well. Both Judo and Aikido were created from several pre-existing Ju Jitsu systems. But any art like that becomes an established thing unto itself when it has been taught for a couple of generations. Then it is no longer considered a "hybrid."

Another great example are the southeast Asian "Kuntao" systems. These were Chinese arts taken to Malaysia and Indonesia generations ago. Over time that were combined with or at least heavily influenced by the native Silat systems. They became "hybridized."

I have been experimenting with a combination of my Wing Chun with Silat Serak. I am not the first to recognize that this makes a great hybrid system. Joseph Simonet did this 20 years ago. What I have discovered is that the basic body mechanics of Serak may be different from Wing Chun, but they are actually quite similar to Weng Chun. Thus my studies of Weng Chun have provided an excellent bridge and increased understanding of how this could work. The basic fighting stance is a forward-weighted shallow "bow stance" with vertical alignment of "toes, knee, and nose." It provides lots of forward pressure/intent and strong structural alignment. It really puts an emphasis on moving through the opponent, taking his space, and disrupting his balance and structure. This is also something emphasized in Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun. The one step further that comes from the Silat are all the various throws and sweeps once you have entered and disrupted the opponent's balance as well as finishing moves on the ground. Silat also has a wide range of joint locks and controls that are very useful in modern times when significantly injuring someone could land you in jail. Serak works in close, so when they are in close range and punching, they often use centerline punches just like Wing Chun.

My experience has been that Wing Chun is a better punching method, while Silat Serak is a better body manipulation/control and stand-up grappling method. So a hybrid art of the two becomes very interesting and workable! Is it still Wing Chun? We could argue that back and forth all day....it depends upon how you define "Wing Chun." Maybe it is "Wing Chun Kuntao." ;)

But again, I certainly wasn't the first to come up with this idea and work along these lines. Here is some footage of Joseph Simonet:



 
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KPM

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Choy Li Fut....a hybrid of Cho Ga, Li Ga, and Fut Ga Kung Fu.

Some more Simonet:



 

Vajramusti

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I'm not a big fan of Simonet. His hybrid martial art may work, but he completely misunderstands WC. I only watch his clips for aesthetic enjoyment ...i.e. Addy Hernandez. ;)
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Another commercial attempt to piggy back on wing chun. His dummy work is indeed for dummies.
 

geezer

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I just got back from training for a week with a kung fu brother in another state. I also conducted PCE Escrima workshops with his students. Many aspects of this system of Escrima segue seamlessly into Wing Chun. So I totally understand this "hybrid" idea. But why create another chop suey hybrid rather than just doing some honest cross training so that you feel confident with weapons, long range H2H, close range H2H, clinch, grappling and groundfighting?

Personally, I find there is more depth in the WC I'm training than I can ever master in this lifetime. So I'm not about to invent yet another hybrid!
 

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My first KF instructor, David Crook, with whom I started in 1977, taught a hybrid of Wing Chun, Choy Li Fut, and Northern Sil Lum. It worked very well for him and his students. He is still teaching successfully today. Not an easy thing to do well but he certainly did it. Multiple ranges, mixing straight and circular techniques, etc. He developed his own forms, which I still practise today.

He's no slouch with a stick or combat folder either, and is a firearms enthusiast to the point of packing his own ammunition. His son, as well as making other precision metal parts for various machines, is a high end gunsmith.

I only left his tutelage because work took me away from Canberra (where he lives) and to Sydney. I still meet up with him occasionally. I've met a number of top shelf martial artists in my time, and he's right up there, especially in regard to desire to continually improve and seek new knowledge, his ability to teach effectively and relate to his students.
 
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Juany118

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I just got back from training for a week with a kung fu brother in another state. I also conducted PCE Escrima workshops with his students. Many aspects of this system of Escrima segue seamlessly into Wing Chun. So I totally understand this "hybrid" idea. But why create another chop suey hybrid rather than just doing some honest cross training so that you feel confident with weapons, long range H2H, close range H2H, clinch, grappling and groundfighting?

Personally, I find there is more depth in the WC I'm training than I can ever master in this lifetime. So I'm not about to invent yet another hybrid!

I would go a step further. Now admittedly in studying Lacoste-Inosanto Kali I already study a hybrid in the spirit of JKD. Now my Mataw-Guro/Sifu also teaches Wing Chin as well in the same class.

The thing is though, if you are going to create a hybrid art (al la Dan Inosanto) or teach more than one art with the intent of hybridization, you need, imo a true understanding of the arts you are putting into the mix.

Example my Guro is also well versed in Aiki-Jujutsu. If he was to add that into the mix I would be "okay cool" but if he was to try and add say Karate it wouldn't make sense because his understanding there is lacking.

As for all martial arts being a hybrid I would debate that. Some may be an evolution, but evolution and hybrid aren't the same thing imo. This to say there aren't some traditional MAs that are hybrids of early ones, only that this is not Universal.
 
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geezer

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I would go a step further. Now admittedly in studying Lacoste-Inosanto Kali I already study a hybrid in the spirit of JKD.

...The thing is though, if you are going to create a hybrid art (al la Dan Inosanto) or teach more than one art with the intent of hybridization, you need, imo a true understanding of the arts you are putting into the mix.

I totally agree with the bolded part in the quote above. That is why I'm not a fan of Simonet's Wing Chun elements in this hybrid. IMO he has taken some movements from WC to incorporate in his martial system, but they are not applied as they would be in WC. They may look like WC techniques, but have become something very different ...at least from the WC I train.

I have great respect for Guro Dan, but but sometimes I see the same thing in videos of his. Consider that early on he came from a kenpo background. To me, Hawaiian/American kenpo systems (Mitose/Chow/Parker/Tracy, et.al.) are the best known example of a modern hybrid approach to martial arts. They often try to incorporate a little bit of everything.

One "Kenpo-Karate" school I used to drive past everyday back in the 90s had a large sign stating that they taught "Karate, Kung-fu, Boxing, Kickboxing, Jiu-jutsu, Tai Chi..." If they are still around, I'm sure they will have added, BJJ and MMA. Frankly, perhaps you can teach a hybrid with bits drawn from those styles, but you can't teach them all and have them retain their original character.

First of all, it's just too much material for anybody to get a grasp on and actually use under stress. Secondly, and more importantly, many of these systems are based on different, even contradictory concepts. To try to practice them all as intended would guarantee confusion and failure.

In Guro Dan's case, I believe he is a gifted athlete, and a bright man with a curious disposition who has spent a lifetime exploring many different styles. I give hime credit. Heck, he was a major inspiration to me. His early books and movie appearances were a major influence in my choice to study Eskrima. But as I have continued in the martial arts these many years, I've come to realize that few of us have the potential to be like Dan Inosanto or Bruce Lee. Secondly, the "more is better" approach of many hybrid martial arts is the exact opposite of what my WC and Eskrima teachers taught.

As for all martial arts being a hybrid I would debate that. Some may be an evolution, but evolution and hybrid aren't the same thing imo. This to say there aren't some traditional MAs that are hybrids of early ones, only that this is not Universal.

I agree with this too. Yip Man's WC is a good example of this. Legend has it that WC evolved from much more complicated, and "hybridized" Shaolin roots. And we know for certain that in the last century, Yip Man further simplified and narrowed the scope of WC, shortening forms (compared to what we still see practiced in Fo'shan, etc.) and concentrating on efficiency and functionality. WC evolved by becoming more focused as a highly integrated and unified Chinese boxing system and less like it's hybrid roots.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I have great respect for Guro Dan, but but sometimes I see the same thing in videos of his. Consider that early on he came from a kenpo background. To me, Hawaiian/American kenpo systems (Mitose/Chow/Parker/Tracy, et.al.) are the best known example of a modern hybrid approach to martial arts. They often try to incorporate a little bit of everything.
From what I've seen of Guro Dan's art, it is a solid system where the various concepts and principles and techniques are integrated seamlessly. That said, I agree that whatever WC influences are still within the system have been transformed into something different from their original purpose.
 

geezer

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About Simonet.

Yeah well personally, I would have stopped watching Simonet's clips after a few minutes if it hadn't been for Addy! ;)

Although, one this that really bugged me is that in a lot of his videos he demonstrates his techniques on her. IMO watching a big muscular guy beat up a small, slender woman doesn't send the right message. :confused:
 

Juany118

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...
In Guro Dan's case, I believe he is a gifted athlete, and a bright man with a curious disposition who has spent a lifetime exploring many different styles. I give hime credit. Heck, he was a major inspiration to me. His early books and movie appearances were a major influence in my choice to study Eskrima. But as I have continued in the martial arts these many years, I've come to realize that few of us have the potential to be like Dan Inosanto or Bruce Lee. Secondly, the "more is better" approach of many hybrid martial arts is the exact opposite of what my WC and Eskrima teachers taught.

Oh we agree on this. I would NEVER suggest that someone do what Guro Dan did. It takes a unique talent, to do what he did and create a cohesive martial art from diverse elements. You need the curiosity not only for the techniques but the philosophy behind them. I don't see him as creating a "more is better" system. What I think he did, oddly enough, is create a simpler, let's call it South Pacific MA, than say PTK or Silat by taking the related and less complicated techniques of many arts. I think he just did so via a complicated "construction process" due to the intense curiosity and thirst for MA knowledge. As a matter of fact this very simplification has me on occassion saying "I really like this but is their a PTK or Solar instructor nearby? This works really well but I want to go 'deeper'."

Now when a lot of people who try to replicate what Guro Dan did I think they can go too far a field. IMO one of the things that makes L-IK work, to be "solid" as @Tony Dismukes said, is that the techniques all share similar roots. Due to the migration patterns in the South Pacific you see shared elements in MA's from Malaysia, through Indonesia and into the Philippines, there was already a fair amount of cross pollination whether it be Silat, Kuntao, and certain styles of FMA. This is especially true in Mindanao because ultimately it was colonial powers that said "your island is now part of the Philippines and not Indonesia." This pre-existing cross pollination makes hybridization into a consistent Martial Art easier.

I see some people though who simply look at other Martial Arts, maybe even arts with little historical or cultural connection, and say "hey that one technique looks really effective over here, that one looks really effective over there." Now sometimes that can work, often times though it doesn't. At least imo one of the things that makes a MA really work is that the techniques can flow into one another naturally. Even when it does work though, it's rarely nice to look at, especially in the case where you recognize a technique from the art you study and you are forced to say "no no no that's just...not right." ;)
 
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KPM

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Another commercial attempt to piggy back on wing chun. His dummy work is indeed for dummies.


He can explain every move and show you multiple applications of each. And he can make it all work. That certainly can't be said for many Wing Chun people.
 
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KPM

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I just got back from training for a week with a kung fu brother in another state. I also conducted PCE Escrima workshops with his students. Many aspects of this system of Escrima segue seamlessly into Wing Chun. So I totally understand this "hybrid" idea. But why create another chop suey hybrid rather than just doing some honest cross training so that you feel confident with weapons, long range H2H, close range H2H, clinch, grappling and groundfighting?

Personally, I find there is more depth in the WC I'm training than I can ever master in this lifetime. So I'm not about to invent yet another hybrid!

If you crosstrain to the point that you can seamlessly integrate what you are doing in multiple aspects as you have described, have you not created a hybrid martial art of your own? If you can change your Wing Chun or your Escrima a bit so that the seamless integration works that much better...are you not doing something new and valuable? Why should we limit things to just what other people have hybridized and developed in the past? Why would we not innovate on things in modern times? Chances are that a lot of the past "masters" that came up with some of the "traditional" martial arts we have today had a lot less practical fighting experience than many modern people that have had access to goed protective gear and people willing to spar and train without it being a "death match." The Dog Brothers certainly discovered this in repects to FMA.
 

geezer

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He can explain every move and show you multiple applications of each. And he can make it all work. That certainly can't be said for many Wing Chun people.

If you put together your own system, you ought to be able to explain every move! On the other hand, if you are a student of a traditional martial art handed down through an old lineage, it only stands to reason that there would be things that you don't fully understand yet. ;)

BTW Keith, I posted something on short-staff down in the General FMA section with a reference to Paulus Hector Mair. I believe you translated that short-staff section into English? Awesome. :)
 
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KPM

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As for all martial arts being a hybrid I would debate that. Some may be an evolution, but evolution and hybrid aren't the same thing imo. This to say there aren't some traditional MAs that are hybrids of early ones, only that this is not Universal.

I never said "all" martial arts were hybrids. Just a great many! From the FMA arena......Remy Presas's "Modern Arnis"...hybrid style.
 

geezer

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If you crosstrain to the point that you can seamlessly integrate what you are doing in multiple aspects as you have described, have you not created a hybrid martial art of your own? If you can change your Wing Chun or your Escrima a bit so that the seamless integration works that much better...are you not doing something new and valuable? Why should we limit things to just what other people have hybridized and developed in the past? Why would we not innovate on things in modern times?

If I agree with you, I might tick some people off. So I should just keep quiet.

....OK, I've never been very good at quiet. You are right. ;)
 
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