Hybrid Martial Arts

[heretic888]

The fact remains that these so-called modern ninjutsu styles, due to their referring to themselves as ninjutsu, are based on a false assumption - namely that ninjutsu in itself has anything with physical combat training to do. If you continually refer to a type of training along the lines of punching, kicking, grappling, breaking, locking, choking, sweeping rolling, jumping, weapons usage etc. in this day and age, there is reason to believe you don't know what you're talking about.

Well, Nimravus, it is my understanding that Togakure ryu contains some taijutsu, shurikenjutsu, shukojutsu, kenjutsu, and the like (even naginatajutsu, from what I've read) --- but that this is not the emphasis of the school. Likewise, Tenshin Katori Shinto ryu and Kukishinden ryu contain some shinobijutsu --- but, again, this is not the emphasis of either of those schools.

Just my thoughts. :asian:

 

[Flatlander]

Wow. Thanks for the resume.

I guess I wasn't clear enough with my original post. My question is, "Do you think it's modern ninjutsu or hybrid martial arts being represented in the Ninjutsu section of the Japanese Martial Arts Area on Martialtalk.com?".

If we want to discuss the validity of distance learning, let's start a thread on that.

Until then, let's keep the conversation on track.

Gassho.

That's a fantastic idea. I would hesitate to infer that this has been the desire all along , however, considering your last post:

Well let's look at it from another perspective, shall we?

OK, let's.

Say someone went off and studied a little Buddhism, some Taoism, Islam, Catholicism, Kenyan Bantu Shamanism and some Eastern European Wicca. Now this person not only doesn't go to the countries of origins of these traditions but for whatever reason, they don't get ordained, indoctrinated, qualified, blessed, baptized or anything in any of these religious traditions either.

I have done this myself. Fortunately for me, I was able to understand the things I read, and form my own understanding regarding the way of things. Of course, that would be for another thread. Join us in the Study sometime.

Then, they decide they have a more "modern" approach and head off to form their own religion calling it "Roman Catholic Wicca". Completely disregarding the question as to wether or not this new religion "obviously sucks" or not, should it be grouped in with the Roman Catholic faith?

If it was founded on principles derived from Roman Catholocism, then yes. By projecting your unfounded idea that this new "religion" "obviously sucks", you're exposing your personal bias, whick I believe to be the absolute center of the problem regarding this Modern Ninjutsu section. You know what? If you don't like the structure, or if you disagree with the principles, don't post in here. It's just that simple. However, back to your false analogy.

If so, what would the Pope think of "throwing bones" at the start of mass, or reciting the Hanya Shingyo (Heart Sutra) instead of the Lord's Prayer?

I would expect that, were this going on, I would have to ask myself, what has caused the Pope to accept this new approach? Perhaps this is something I should look at. If it's a movement so powerful that it could cause such a fundamental change of paradigm in the leader of such a large movement, there must be something to it, no? This is one of the problems with your analogy. Clearly, this is not what's going on.

Sure they've all got similarities, and are generally all trying to accomplish the same goal, but they have very different ways of going about it, don't you think? Wouldn't this "Hybrid" approach be better off as being refered to as it's own entity rather than a branch of "modern" Catholiscm unsanctioned by the Vatican or as a sect of "Civilized" Bantu Shamanism?

Sure. In fact, I would trust the Roman Catholic Administration to make that distinction, and the followers of each particular faith to be able to figure out which building to walk into based upon the signage.

One more note, Japanese martial arts are refered to as "ryu", a "flow", as are tea ceremony, dance, flower arranging etc. They begin with basic patterns and go from there. Once the basic patterns have been learned, the student learns to improvise, then if modifications are necessary to keep it working, they're added. They start from a base of knowledge and flow from there. When the flow stops, the tradition dies. Modern American hybrid systems are ecclectic, the whole fundamental base is altogther different, even if the end goal is similar.

But what are they derived from? I study an art that was brought to the US, evolved somewhat, and propogated all over the Continent. It was Filipino in origin, the movement is Filipino. It was taught to me by a Canadian who learned it from an American. Still, the way I move is FMA. It is still Filipino, not Western.

That's where I think the friction is. That's why I think the modern "ninjutsu" section should be transplanted.

I don't, but I don't make that decision.

 

[Cryozombie]

I'm going to try not to sidetrack this thread, as it is all over the place here as it is... but I am going to make an observation and pose a couple questions.

Here is my take on the issue of "Hybrid arts" calling themselves "Ninjutsu" (or jitsu, take your pick)

For the most part... (with some minor dissention from some outside factions that cannot back up their claims) You had 1 school teaching Ninjutsu for quite some time. The rule set forth by the head of that School was you had to be at least 5th dan to teach the art.

A few people, some of whom had barley just earned 1st dan ranks decided that they were "ready" to do their own thing... they then "Blended" what they had learned from that ninjutsu school with their prior training in whatever art that may be... but didn't abandon the name of the original art... "Ninjutsu". Still, others came along after the "Ninja Boom" of the late 70's early 80's and also claimed to teach "Ninjitsu" even tho their background was limited to other arts.

To a practitioner of That original Ninjutsu... no amount of rationalization that "He had "some" training and saw holes in the style"... or "Well, we feel what we practice is in the "sprirt" of the original Ninjutsu"... is going to make it the same art... so why did they take it's name?

Imagine if you built a car and called it a Ford... because well, you "Worked" in the ford plant for a few years... or your car was built in "the spirit" of the original Fords... It still wouldnt be a ford.

In a similar vein... Seig, if you Went to a Kempo school and found out that what they were doing was in actuallity Brazilian Ju Jutsu, or Flatlander, if went to an Arnis school and they were actually just teaching Juko-kai... what would you think?

That said, I feel as long as these "hybrid ninja" arts are going to co-exsist with the "Original Ninjutsu" on the board, you will always have a bit of dissention going both ways. I don't think that they cannot co-habitate. I think that, like an episode of "The Real World" you will see some drama as different personalities clash from time to time.

As long as either side makes posts "questioning" the techniques of the other side, people will conflict over exactly whats best. Again, I see nothing WRONG with that per se...

What I am going to URGE everyone here to do is this... Stop, Take a look at the other side's POV, and then do your best to REMIAN CIVIL. I don't want to see anyone banned or suspended from the forums over a stupid weiner waving contest... it's not worth it.

If you have a dissenting point of view, that's ok... just present it NICELY.

 

[Enson]

He's not a Bujinkan student, you cannot hold him to the same standards or statements from Hatsumi, that is unfair. If Stephan Hayes says he can train that way, he is learning Toshindo, not Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Hatsumi's statements about his art do not matter, as thats not what he is learning.

what about the videos by michael pearce? i think he states they are for instruction... on a monthly basis. i know off topic but just a thought i had.

i think your ford analogy is sound but still has its holes. the "ford" name is trademark so legally you couldn't call your car a ford car. now... unless the "ninjutsu" name is trademarked... then we have a different issue on hand. i think the main problem stems from some that claim to have exclusive rights to that title.

the unfortunate fact is anyone can claim to teach ninjutsu even with a made up style. now what they claim and what they are are 2 different things. the word ninjutsu is not copy written and might never be. what will happen if some other style copy writes that word? now booj, rtms, rbwi, etc couldn't legally use that name... what would we do then?

re:hybrid... if its roots/concepts are ninjutsu... even though it is not the same as it is done in japan now... then it should stay in japanese arts, but not my decision.

peace

 

[heretic888]

No offense, Flatlander, but I think you took almost everything Kizaru said completely out of context (talk about false analogies)....

 

[Cryozombie]

what about the videos by michael pearce? i think he states they are for instruction... on a monthly basis. i know off topic but just a thought i had.

I agree, Von Donk does the same thing... not IMHO, a good substitute for an instrutcor, but better than nothing... NOT something you should try and learn exclusivly from a video. And had gmunoz been studying Bujinkan with those DVDs, I would have agreed that what he was doing was what Hatsumi said not to do... but Gmunoz is studying Toshindo, so telling him Hatsumi said dont learn from a Videotape is a moot point, which is why I posted that.

i think your ford analogy is sound but still has its holes. the "ford" name is trademark so legally you couldn't call your car a ford car. now... unless the "ninjutsu" name is trademarked... then we have a different issue on hand. i think the main problem stems from some that claim to have exclusive rights to that title.

I expected exactly that argument, so I was hesitant to use a branded trademark... but I think if you examine my concept its still the same. "Ford" implies a certain "style" of car with certain type of "parts" and a certain "qulality" of workmanship. Thats more of what I was refering to. I wasn't implying the legal ramifications, merely the fact that you were not making a "Ford" vehicle.

the unfortunate fact is anyone can claim to teach ninjutsu even with a made up style. now what they claim and what they are are 2 different things. the word ninjutsu is not copy written and might never be.

True, but again, anyone can claim anything... I can say the grass is purple, or that my last name is Munoz, and that I am related to you by association on this forum, but that doenst make it so. There is nothing anyone can do about those claims... except call them BS. Thats why I said no matter what, you will have friction over the claims, and we should just do our best to get along with one another.

 

[Enson]

Thats why I said no matter what, you will have friction over the claims, and we should just do our best to get along with one another.

good points. i will ponder on that throughout the day.

peace

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Well, Nimravus, it is my understanding that Togakure ryu contains some taijutsu, shurikenjutsu, shukojutsu, kenjutsu, and the like (even naginatajutsu, from what I've read) --- but that this is not the emphasis of the school.

It is, judging from how it's practiced within the Bujinkan.

 

[gmunoz]

I have to say TP, that I do respect the fact that as a moderator now, it seems to me that your comments are much more open minded. I mean that as a compliment to you. I realize you have your own opinion regarding MA that are obviously different than mine in many ways, but you now are being quite respectful of individuals opinion even when they are different than yours. Thank you. Keep it up. Completely off topic I know. Sorry.

 

[Flatlander]

No offense, Flatlander, but I think you took almost everything Kizaru said completely out of context (talk about false analogies)....

Perhaps you are correct. After re-reading, I found a misreading or two. My point was in the first sentence. That was really all I wanted to stay. The rest was the coffee kicking in.

 

[Kizaru]

No offense, Flatlander, but I think you took almost everything Kizaru said completely out of context (talk about false analogies)....

:iws:

 

[Kizaru]

Imagine if you built a car and called it a Ford... because well, you "Worked" in the ford plant for a few years... or your car was built in "the spirit" of the original Fords... It still wouldnt be a ford.

In a similar vein... Seig, if you Went to a Kempo school and found out that what they were doing was in actuallity Brazilian Ju Jutsu, or Flatlander, if went to an Arnis school and they were actually just teaching Juko-kai... what would you think?

TP, I couldn't agree with you more.

As the old saying goes, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck"...Well, I see the Hybrid arts looking like vultures, walking like peacocks and "quacking" like dogs.

:asian:

 

[heretic888]

Well, I see the Hybrid arts looking like vultures, walking like peacocks and "quacking" like dogs.

HAH! Genius. :asian:

 

[Enson]

TP, I couldn't agree with you more.

As the old saying goes, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck"...Well, I see the Hybrid arts looking like vultures, walking like peacocks and "quacking" like dogs.

:asian:

could this mean that you are under the influence? lay off the drugs buddy!:asian:

 

[Cryozombie]

TP, I couldn't agree with you more.

As the old saying goes, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck"...Well, I see the Hybrid arts looking like vultures, walking like peacocks and "quacking" like dogs.

:asian:

Platypus?

 

[sojobow]

No.

Hybrid arts take "This from this, That from that" and blends them together... Like RBWI mixing Some Hapkido, Some Ninpo and coming up with something "new"

The Bujinkan "Organization" contains the COMPLETE teachings of all 9 schools, so it is not a "Hybrid" It doesnt "mix and match".

It is theorectically possible to JUST learn, say, Koto Ryu. Or Just learn Kukishinden... Not simply Techniques A C D F from Koto Ryu and B E G from Kukishin... see the difference?

If you just read your own post over again, you'll discover both of your examples are actually the same thing: Hybrids. The "Organization" did not start out with Nine "complete" schools." A few were added as we moved along the way. All martial arts systems are Hybrids.

 

[sojobow]

Not to mention, all of the nine arts in the Bujinkan are actually Japanese in origin.

?

 

[Cryozombie]

If you just read your own post over again, you'll discover both of your examples are actually the same thing: Hybrids. The "Organization" did not start out with Nine "complete" schools." A few were added as we moved along the way. All martial arts systems are Hybrids.

If you crossbreed a Donkey and a Horse, you get a Mule, which is a Hybrid.

If you Have a Horse and buy a donkey, you have a Horse and a Donkey. Not a Hybrid.

Try again, Sojo.

 

[Kizaru]

HAH! Genius. :asian:

Thanks! But, where's my positive reputation point?!?! Somebody help! My reputation is plummetting! Where's BESTER when you need him?!?! Ahhhhh!!!!

 

[heretic888]

The "Organization" did not start out with Nine "complete" schools." A few were added as we moved along the way.

Ok, sojobow, would you mind elucidating as to which schools the Bujinkan has "added to" its curriculum in its less than 40 year history??

All martial arts systems are Hybrids.

No. Not all martial arts systems employ a cut-n-paste, mix-n-match approach to study.

As technopunk said, "try again".

?

What's with the question mark?? All nine koryu in the Bujinkan are Japanese schools. What's so hard to understand about that??

Thanks! But, where's my positive reputation point?!?! Somebody help! My reputation is plummetting! Where's BESTER when you need him?!?! Ahhhhh!!!!

Sorry, man. Never used the "karma system" before. :asian: