Hybrid Arts

[Juany118]

That is definitely true of one-leg moves like that sweep (and ours). It's far less true of some other takedowns, and mostly only a risk where they have already locked onto you (at which point you're at risk of going to the ground, and putting them down hard is an improvement).

That is why I am a bigger fan of one leg take downs that have to driving up, rather than sweeping. They still have a chance to bring you with them but I find that it happens far less often

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That is definitely true of one-leg moves like that sweep (and ours). It's far less true of some other takedowns, and mostly only a risk where they have already locked onto you (at which point you're at risk of going to the ground, and putting them down hard is an improvement).

Not letting your opponent's arms to surround your waist is important. If you can use your

- back arm to wrap your opponent's leading arm,
- leading arm to under hook, or over hook his back arm,
- you then let go your leading arm control and press down on his back shoulder,
- spring one of his legs,

it will be hard for him to drag you down.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No but clearly it is from a video. From the original link it appears to be from the Gracie Combatives series.

Dang. I wanted to see what they are explaining, because part of what I see there looks like a structural problem. They don't usually have structural problems, so I'm curious whether they were demonstrating the problem, or if there's something they do differently there that avoids the problem.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You definitely need to be prepared but I think you hit a good point with the Gracies thing. The other day I found a video by the two who do the combatives series. The video was good in part they actually acknowledged that Gracie BJJ has two forms, one for sport and one for self defense and if you train the sport one only you can have issues. The bad thing about the video was that they said "this is the best self-defense art..." Blah blah blah. Once you are convinced of that idea then "oh you can do it on glass no problem." becomes a necessity regardless of the reality of the situation.

Agreed. I think everyone should believe their art (or mix thereof) to be the best for their purposes, while intellectually acknowledging that is never wholly true.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not letting your opponent's arms to surround your waist is important. If you can use your

- back arm to wrap your opponent's leading arm,
- leading arm to under hook, or over hook his back arm,
- you then let go your leading arm control and press down on his back shoulder,
- spring one of his legs,

it will be hard for him to drag you down.

He doesn't have to get an arm around you to take advantage of a one-legged stance. A handful of t-shirt can suffice, and I've demonstrated to students that even a wrist grip will work if I hold their wrist to my chest as I fall. The real saving in this video is that the thrower doesn't actually bring his leg up - he drives through, with his foot barely leaving the ground. He's maintaining a 2-footed stance for the majority of that movement.

 

[Juany118]

Dang. I wanted to see what they are explaining, because part of what I see there looks like a structural problem. They don't usually have structural problems, so I'm curious whether they were demonstrating the problem, or if there's something they do differently there that avoids the problem.

What's the issue you see? Just curious because that makes sense that me, in a very particular context.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What's the issue you see? Just curious because that makes sense that me, in a very particular context.

Nage's back is to uke. A small pull and uke should be able to put him off-balance to his heels. Even as a transitional position, it's a problem, in case the attacker stumbles right there. It would be unlike the Gracies to have a gap like that in a technique, so I'm wondering if they have something else built in to mitigate it.

 

[Juany118]

Nage's back is to uke. A small pull and uke should be able to put him off-balance to his heels. Even as a transitional position, it's a problem, in case the attacker stumbles right there. It would be unlike the Gracies to have a gap like that in a technique, so I'm wondering if they have something else built in to mitigate it.

Ah, okay. The way I was picturing it was this. First picture there being a knife in the restrained arm. Once there your next move wouldn't be a restraint or takedown. Your "inside" arm becomes an upward elbow strike to the retrained elbow to break it and force the knife to drop, if not dropped you strip the knife.

While it creates a momentary vulnerability having that position it makes sense in the knife realm. First, often, the knife wielder is going to be focused on maintaining control of the knife. Then having the ball and socket joint of the elbow wide open like that means that the bad guy can't effectively wrestle for control of the knife with that arm due to how that kind of joint works as I am sure you know.

 

[drop bear]

Dang. I wanted to see what they are explaining, because part of what I see there looks like a structural problem. They don't usually have structural problems, so I'm curious whether they were demonstrating the problem, or if there's something they do differently there that avoids the problem.

Their stand up can be a bit off some times. But normally that arm control is a Russian tie. as almost nobody lets you get a straight arm bar takedown.

 

[drop bear]

I forgot to reply to this part, too.

I sometimes see folks mocking the idea that gravel and glass and such is an issue worth considering. I've seen Gracie videos where they did some of their work on pavement, and have had people tell me they successfully did groundwork on gravel. I don't doubt that. But it's percentages. Doing groundwork on pavement adds chance of getting injured, for both parties. Do it on gravel, and that chance goes up in some ways and down in others. Add glass (even one sharp piece), and it's a whole new possibility of injury. Are those things common? Depends where you are, and I want to limit the adjustments I have to make for environment. So, I tend to work more condensed and close to reduce the adjustments I have to make for constrained spaces. I tend to stay standing so I don't have to account for debris. And so forth. Are there compromises in those decisions? Yes, of course.

The compromise is loosing fights and getting your face smashed in. Fine i like to stay standing. I like to avoid punches and kicks. I would like arm bars and take downs to work.

But fighitng for some reason has other ideas.

There comes a time in a fight where you really need to stop messing around with a guy and shoot that double.

 

[Transk53]

Ah, okay. The way I was picturing it was this. First picture there being a knife in the restrained arm. Once there your next move wouldn't be a restraint or takedown. Your "inside" arm becomes an upward elbow strike to the retrained elbow to break it and force the knife to drop, if not dropped you strip the knife.

While it creates a momentary vulnerability having that position it makes sense in the knife realm. First, often, the knife wielder is going to be focused on maintaining control of the knife. Then having the ball and socket joint of the elbow wide open like that means that the bad guy can't effectively wrestle for control of the knife with that arm due to how that kind of joint works as I am sure you know.

Why?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the thrower doesn't actually bring his leg up - he drives through, with his foot barely leaving the ground. He's maintaining a 2-footed stance for the majority of that movement.

Of course if you have both feet on the ground, you will have better balance yourself. Sometime when you use one leg to kick your opponent's body off the ground, you may have intention to drop your body weight on top of him. A good body drop can end a fight if the ground is hard.

If you can use one leg to lift your opponent's body off the ground, you can take him down with both feet on the ground. The other way around may not be true. IMO, that's a good testing for your "single leg balance during throwing".

- In fighting, you may want to play safe.
- In training, you want to challenge yourself to the maximum.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ah, okay. The way I was picturing it was this. First picture there being a knife in the restrained arm. Once there your next move wouldn't be a restraint or takedown. Your "inside" arm becomes an upward elbow strike to the retrained elbow to break it and force the knife to drop, if not dropped you strip the knife.

While it creates a momentary vulnerability having that position it makes sense in the knife realm. First, often, the knife wielder is going to be focused on maintaining control of the knife. Then having the ball and socket joint of the elbow wide open like that means that the bad guy can't effectively wrestle for control of the knife with that arm due to how that kind of joint works as I am sure you know.

We use a technique very close to what I'm sure they are doing there (given their Judo/Jujutsu roots). We call that variant a Rollover Arm Bar, and the destruction is pulling up on the wrist while dropping body weight through the elbow. I looked at it again, and he's not as far from my preferred structure as I first thought. For some reason, I had processed the front foot at a different angle earlier. Still, I'd prefer to be angled further toward the uke. It sacrifices the clamp a bit (an issue with someone trained in the same technique) and gains stability. If their next move is to completely sacrifice their weight and drop to a seated or kneeling position to create the destruction, then the weaker foundation is not an issue.

 

[Juany118]

Why?

This position is used as a knife disarm technique because it totally opens up the shoulder joint. When a ball and socket joint is opened like that it loses most of its strength so it helps to control the limb for a break/strip. It also puts you in a position away from the pointy end.

 

[drop bear]

This position is used as a knife disarm technique because it totally opens up the shoulder joint. When a ball and socket joint is opened like that it loses most of its strength so it helps to control the limb for a break/strip. It also puts you in a position away from the pointy end.

What if he has two knives? Then he just gets stabbed by the other one.

 

[Juany118]

What if he has two knives? Then he just gets stabbed by the other one.

And the purpose of this strawman? That's akin to saying "what if he has hold out pistol, then you just get shot.

A question was asked, it was answered factually and you didn't even address the biomechanical facts noted in the response, just strawman time.

 

[drop bear]

And the purpose of this strawman? That's akin to saying "what if he has hold out pistol, then you just get shot.

A question was asked, it was answered factually and you didn't even address the biomechanical facts noted in the response, just strawman time.

Knives are very comon in a real self defence situation. I like to address my self defence towards real threats.

I gear my training to an uncontrolled environment where knives may be present.

 

[Juany118]

Knives are very comon in a real self defence situation. I like to address my self defence towards real threats.

I gear my training to an uncontrolled environment where knives may be present.

Indeed knives are common. Someone dual wielding knives, one in either hand, not so much.

Not sure if serious or taking a shot. The later more likely but not certain.

 

[wayfaring]

Dang. I wanted to see what they are explaining, because part of what I see there looks like a structural problem. They don't usually have structural problems, so I'm curious whether they were demonstrating the problem, or if there's something they do differently there that avoids the problem.

I would tell him it's a knife disarm but he can't see it.

 

[wayfaring]

Knives are very comon in a real self defence situation. I like to address my self defence towards real threats.

I gear my training to an uncontrolled environment where knives may be present.

Yes a drawback of that specific Gracie disarm technique is that you are so fully engaged with the weapon arm that 2 knives (or other things for that matter - brass knuckles, spiked boot, even a knee) could get you.

The advantage of that disarm technique is it works in a live scenario in that it achieves the goal of fully isolating the weapon arm away from the body and controlling it. That is step 1, leading to the disarm at step 2. To clarify weapons disarms are not in Gracie Combatives, that's another source - maybe LEO training.