Hybrid Martial Arts or just scammers ?

[skribs]

Thanks everyone for your comments. The main takeaway that I learned here, is it is considered nowadays 100% OK if a school advertises teaching a martial art even if it is not authentic or the vaguely the same as what is being advertised.

What is "authentic"? Who decides what is and isn't "authentic" for a martial art?

Your position is more about boxes. You've placed martial arts in a box. You've decided what you think an art is. And if an art isn't exactly what you think it is, then instead of adjusting your assumptions and saying "this is also the art", you just say it's not authentic.

To use your example above, there are styles of Okinawan karate that feature grappling, including take-downs and ground-fighting. Someone who trains that style and sees a school that only teaches the grappling might see it as a specialized school that focuses on grappling. You look at it and say "It's not authentic Okinawan Karate, it's BJJ."

 

[Oily Dragon]

What is "authentic"? Who decides what is and isn't "authentic" for a martial art?

Your position is more about boxes. You've placed martial arts in a box. You've decided what you think an art is. And if an art isn't exactly what you think it is, then instead of adjusting your assumptions and saying "this is also the art", you just say it's not authentic.

To use your example above, there are styles of Okinawan karate that feature grappling, including take-downs and ground-fighting. Someone who trains that style and sees a school that only teaches the grappling might see it as a specialized school that focuses on grappling. You look at it and say "It's not authentic Okinawan Karate, it's BJJ."

The key point you just made: It's insulting to believe Okinawans couldn't learn to fight on the ground without help from other nations.

I so agree.

 

[drop bear]

Thanks everyone for your comments. The main takeaway that I learned here, is it is considered nowadays 100% OK if a school advertises teaching a martial art even if it is not authentic or the vaguely the same as what is being advertised.

Yep. So long as it works.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yep. So long as it works.

Agree! As long as a teacher can teach you how to fight, why should you care about what system he is teaching?

A: What style do you teach?
B: I teach the style that you can land your fist on your opponent's face.

 

[Old Happy Tiger]

May be you haven't seen enough.

I have seen someone integrated:

- white crane power generation method into his Yang Taiji system.
- Baji power generation method into his praying mantis system.
- WC centerline principle into his long fist system.
- Chinese wrestling leg skill into his Taiji system.
- ...

LOL.. "haven't seen enough" Yes, I 100% agree to that, for certain.. There is many styles out there to learn.

In what you wrote, I don't think there is any wrong with hybrid systems or people learning different styles of systems.

Like I wrote above the main takeaway that I learned here, is it is considered nowadays 100% OK if a school advertises teaching a martial art even if it is not authentic or the vaguely the same as what is being advertised.

 

[Xue Sheng]

There are folks, who have extensive training and study in more than one style that I consider rather qualified to come up with their own hybrid style. and there are those with a little training in multiple styles that come up with a hybrid style that I find questionable.

 

[Old Happy Tiger]

There are folks, who have extensive training and study in more than one style that I consider rather qualified to come up with their own hybrid style. and there are those with a little training in multiple styles that come up with a hybrid style that I find questionable.

I agree with you, 100%. Well said. XieXie.

 

[Flying Crane]

Thanks everyone for your comments. The main takeaway that I learned here, is it is considered nowadays 100% OK if a school advertises teaching a martial art even if it is not authentic or the vaguely the same as what is being advertised.

Well, that is not the message that I intended. Rather, what exactly are you gonna do about what other people are doing? For better or for worse, nobody gets to be the supreme authority on what is or is not authentic or where the line lies, beyond which it is something else. So in the end, all you can really do is a bit of research and then make decisions for yourself. And if a friend asks your opinion on a school, feel free to be honest with them.

 

[Old Happy Tiger]

Well, that is not the message that I intended. Rather, what exactly are you gonna do about what other people are doing? For better or for worse, nobody gets to be the supreme authority on what is or is not authentic or where the line lies, beyond which it is something else. So in the end, all you can really do is a bit of research and then make decisions for yourself. And if a friend asks your opinion on a school, feel free to be honest with them.

What style do you currently practice?

 

[Flying Crane]

What style do you currently practice?

Tibetan white crane. I’ve trained some other things in the past, but no longer do so.

 

[Martial D]

Like some of your know, I've been considering joining a Martial Arts school again and while I'm currently waiting because of time and money. For the past two years I've been looking around.
Some of the local schools I've seen, are really great around my area. However... Without "pointing fingers" I have seen a few, that are more towards hybrid styles, although they claim they are traditional.

I have also seen many folks on YouTube stating they are teaching xyz Martial Art, yet they are not honest to their viewers on what they are showing and sometimes teaching live, is a Martial Art that they themselves modified.

I have NO issues with hybrid Martial Arts, but if you have a video on YouTube or even a school that you are teaching.. For example Aikido.. and you are teaching boxing covers, knees and elbows from Muay Thai Kickboxing as a part of your school.. SORRY that's not being honest and ethical. If I am wrong or missing something here, please let me know and correct me.

Tbh I would join the aikido place that adopted some western and Thai boxing into their system long before I joined one that didn't. JS

 

[drop bear]

Tbh I would join the aikido place that adopted some western and Thai boxing into their system long before I joined one that didn't. JS

Those happens in Japanese jujitsu some times. Where they are just basically a hybrid doing modern grappling.

And it is a significantly better system than the original.

From memory tritac was an example. Nothing like traditional japanese jujitsu. And better in every way for it.

 

[Old Happy Tiger]

Tibetan white crane. I’ve trained some other things in the past, but no longer do so.

I remember and like those long rotating arms and fists of Pak Hok Pai.

 

[Steve]

I think it's possible for even a lay person to evaluate the quality of a hybrid art. You just have to ask the right questions and not get swept up in the sales pitch.

 

[rick_tsdmdk]

Good luck!

 

[pudaoking]

I'll counter with a question: At what point is an art "locked" that it can no longer be modified?

Oh that’s an easy one, the arts are never locked. However lots of students from said arts, who haven’t studied their style or system long enough to even scratch the surface of it decide to compensate for their own incompetence by looking elsewhere to add other styles into the mix even when the arts they are adding might contradict and hamper their progress in the main art they were trying to fix. It’s ok to practice more then one art but before you go ahead and make changes and additions to things that are usually fine the way they are, make sure you have already completely exhausted every angle of your studies in that particular style. If you don’t have a complete understanding of your primary style then anything you add prematurely will result in garbage. I look at it this way, cross training is only good sometimes. Imagine someone wanting to be the greatest Olympian ever by training Power lifting and Gymnastics and long distance running all at the same time. Well you say each of those sports or athletic endeavors may teach you sn amazing skill but do they really mix well and improve you or will you just end up with a steaming pile of crap.

 

[Ironbear24]

I'm not saying any style can't be modified, and really I appreciate the replies that I got back. Sorry I'm confused a bit...
... Maybe it because I am an older guy I'm not seeing things like I should.

So, again if there is a school that is teaching for example traditional Okinawan Karate AND advertising it as such has a new student that joins that school to learn that style of Okinawan Karate and only ends up on the mat learning and practicing BJJ/grappling in that school, then that is 100% "ok" in today standards? I'm just trying to understand if a school advertises one style then it's ok to totally not be what is really being shown at that school for that style of Martial Art as advertise? Again, I'm 100% ok for hybrid Martial Arts and modifying the same as long as the student knows that what they are learning is a hybrid / modified art from the traditional / original.

Yes.

 

[J. Pickard]

Isnt every art a "hybrid art" to some extent? I mean karate got influence from kung fu and savate, the Gracies completely overhauled their jujitsu (jiu-jitsu) until it was unrecognizable, Taekwondo was basically karate. I'm pretty sure humanity has existed for too long for any art to truly be "pure".

 

[dancingalone]

I think specifics are in order. "Okinawan karate" is kinda vague and runs the gamut from George Dillman pressure point stuff to Chibana Shorin-ryu to family styles that resemble southern Chinese systems. I would know to ask clarifying questions if someone told me they taught Okinawan karate though I acknowledge most would not.

If someone told me they taught Okinawan Goju-ryu karate, I would ask their lineage and from there have a pretty good idea of what kata and movement I would expect them to be able to show me spontaneously. Hate to be vague, but it depends.

As to the larger discussion, I don't have an issue with style innovation. People forget sometimes that Okinawan karate has always accepted improvements readily. It's not uncommon for karate-ka to also know a little bit of judo and boxing, although they may not know exactly when and how it entered into their lineage.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Isnt every art a "hybrid art" to some extent? I mean karate got influence from kung fu and savate, the Gracies completely overhauled their jujitsu (jiu-jitsu) until it was unrecognizable, Taekwondo was basically karate. I'm pretty sure humanity has existed for too long for any art to truly be "pure".

I got called a "Schmuck" in the latest Wing Chun Centerline thread the other day, because somebody claimed that Tibetan White Crane, Hop Gar, and Lama Pai were all different names for the same art.

They're not the same art, there's a whole spider's web there. If you can't see it, maybe it's a matter of more training? I don't know.

The Thoughts of a Spiderweb

Spiders appear to offload cognitive tasks to their webs, making them one of a number of species with a mind that isn’t fully confined within the head.

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