How would you defend against a hook?

[mook jong man]

I have to say that Zepedawingchun is 110% correct on this one , simultaneous counter attack should be used where ever possible.

With one hand tasked with deflecting , and the other hand attacking the opponents centreline.
Most of the time depending on the trajectory of the round house you can step in with your centreline punch and hit him before his arm has even barely made contact with your deflecting arm , totally disrupting his forward momentum and taking most of the power of his strike with it.

Hitting him in the shoulder with a Pak is not attacking the centreline and does nothing to effect the centre of his body mass or shut down the main computer , his brain.

It seems to be more in line with the Phillipino arts concepts of a limb destruction if anything.

As was mentioned before having that Pak way over there at his shoulder is just too damn risky , when you consider that most people attack in a series of combinations.

Also seems to be a bit of a clash in that you are trying to stop the attacking limb dead in its tracks rather than redirecting it and decelerating it , that energy has to go somewhere and it will be going straight into your shoulders and destabilising your stance.

You may get away with it against someone your own size or smaller , but against someone bigger I think it would be a bit of a gamble.

You maybe able to get him with the elbow before he comes at you with the other hand , but its more than likely you will still be hit as well.

Of course there are times when the rules must be broken and we may have to use two of our limbs to stop one of his , but this would generally speaking only be in the case of a huge disparity in size and strength of the two combatants involved.

There are better ways to go about it , if worse comes to worse and you do have to deflect a powerful strike with both your arms .

The techniques involved use the power of the circle to redirect the force and spread it over a wider area , it also means that the more committed the strike the more the opponent is pulled off balance.
As soon as the force of the strike has been neutralised then the attacking arm is latched down asap and a counter strike is launched.

This serves to
(A) Pull the attacker into your strike , increasing the damage done.
(B) Controls the arm and takes it out of the picture so it is no longer a threat
(C) Puts the attacker in an off balanced position.

With these three things happening at once it makes it very difficult for the opponent to try and do a strike from his other hand .

I don't like it but if you are going to continue to use the technique that you are using and it sounds like you will , no matter what we say , then I suggest that you maybe simultaneously lap sau his punching arm down from your Wu Sau hand and from your Pak Sau hand strike straight up to the throat with a Fak Sau since it is already in that vicinity.

At least it will destabilise his stance and stop him from generating any torque if he does decide to strike with the other hand.

We may all do different brands of Wing Chun , but the principles remain the same although the terms might differ.
Any technique must be rigorously put through the filter of
SIMPLICITY
DIRECTNESS
ECONOMY OF MOVEMENT
MINIMUM USE OF BRUTE STRENGTH
PRACTICALITY

If the technique does not satisfy these requirements then the question has to be asked
"Is it really Wing Chun?".

Please don't take these observations as a personal attack , that is not my intention at all.
We are just trying to help you make your Wing Chun a bit more direct and efficient than what it is now.

 

[geezer]

If you use a wu pak, you're putting 2 hands (yours) on one (of theirs) leaving the other hand unattended. So, you're blocking their hand (punch) and attacking the shoulder from the same side punch? What stops them from throwing a punch from the other hand (like most people) immediately as you wu pak...

I have to agree. "Two hands to control one" is generally unwise. Especially if your opponent knows what he's doing.

I'm glad it works for you. But if you can hit them in the shoulder, why can't you hit them on the chin? It's just as easy. I'm just giving you something that should work better for you. I would much rather hit an attacker in the throat or chin and knock them for a loop than hit them in the shoulder...

Actually there are certain "long-bridge" hooking strikes used in some styles (Tibetan Crane for example). Against stuff like that, I suppose you might not be able to reach your attacker's face if you don't aggressively move inside with your counterattack. But then you'd be too far out to follow up with an elbow either. I don't know. I've only met about one guy in my life who could ever use that stuff in a fight. Sooo... it's not something I'd train for. On the other hand, sometimes, I've had students do drills where they hit the shoulder sort of like that.... but we it's because we wanted to practice testing our techniques against some heavy power and didn't have any gloves or gear handy. Otherwise I'd sure rather hit the face too! So I'm with Zepeda and Vajramusdi on this.

 

[Vajramusti]

A good hook is a very very dangerous thing. OTOH with practice and good timing a skilled wing chun person can inside lop the hook's bridge and indeed use the other hand - a palm
at the shoulder to put the guy on the floor.. if you know how to balance yourself and the other persons center.

joy

 

[zepedawingchun]

You took it out of context, I was referring to the above statement. The video was not meant as a teaching tool, I was demonstrating how WE defend the hook.

Maybe the video was not meant as a teaching tool, but many people who see it will think it is. And the way the video is done, it is being illustrated as a how to along with an explanation.

Before Studying Wing Chun, I did a little JKD Concepts (Guro Dan Inosanto's idea of JKD) and was taught the shoulder stop (originally from Kali). I thought it had merit, until I began Wing Chun and found it was just as easy to execute a biu sau to the hook and da to the opponent's center (face, chin, throat) and much more effective. The shoulder stop can be effective, especially if you have a knife in each hand and don't want to kill someone. A knife in the hooking arm and one in the shoulder works very well to stop an attack. But empty handed, I feel you can do better.

 

[zepedawingchun]

Here's how I do it, from TWC. Watch both vid:

Not sure why I missed this, but in the original poster's links, the first video also illustrates doing a shoulder stop, and inflicting damage or pain. As stated, not my idea of efficiency. Hitting in the face, chin, or throat does much more damage and causes much more pain than striking the shoulder. And still, if you can strike the shoulder, you could strike the chin with just as much ease.

The second clip does show striking to the center (chin) instead but also talks about what to do if you miss. A better idea than the first clip.

 

[wtxs]

You took it out of context, I was referring to the above statement. The video was not meant as a teaching tool, I was demonstrating how WE defend the hook.

You should know by now people on this forum tends to take their WC very serious.

The video may had not intended as an teaching aid, however, when you demonstrate any technique ... you are showing how it is or had to be executed, which how it was transmitted (taught) to you ... and by default, you in-turn show you student by demonstrating what you had been taught, in an nutshell may friend, that IS teaching.

 

[wtxs]

Braaavo ... and I DAAAAAAAARE any one to dispute this concept.

Now stop that Zepeda, you are making way too much sense ...

It must be the years and years of my Sifu saying 'it must be logical, economical, practical, and efficient', or maybe just doing it wrong and getting hit way too many times did the trick.

Thanks wtxs.

Nooo ... Zepeda, thank you!

We need more people on this forum whom are willing to face the consequences of making the judgement call when needed and telling it like it should be.

Like I had said before, the quality of WC for our future generation IS in our hands.

Here is a toast to you .. :cheers:

 

[zepedawingchun]

Thanks for the toast, wtxs. It is much appreciated.

I never really think about the future of our art as in our hands. But you are right. All I ever wanted to do was pass it on as best I could. Like it's been (and continues to be) passed to me. That's why it burns me up to hear about this fake teaching Wing Chun, or that fake taking advantage of people who are not knowledgeable of the arts, etc.

Hopefully this forum is one way to tell people and help them learn about this very dynamic art we call Wing Chun.

 

[wtxs]

Thanks for the toast, wtxs. It is much appreciated.

I never really think about the future of our art as in our hands. But you are right. All I ever wanted to do was pass it on as best I could. Like it's been (and continues to be) passed to me. That's why it burns me up to hear about this fake teaching Wing Chun, or that fake taking advantage of people who are not knowledgeable of the arts, etc.

Hopefully this forum is one way to tell people and help them learn about this very dynamic art we call Wing Chun.

I don't worried much about people teaching fake WC this days, it's the low quality, substandard, and the "my modified and mo better" WC (because they don't know enough and have not put in the time or effort in the learning process).

Surely WC has to keep pace with our modern requirements, the only way we can make it better is by fully understand the WC concepts and principles ... not by making up ***** along the way and try to validate their so call achievements ... some may even call that evolution of WC. :soapbox:

 

[Svemocn1vidar]

Our choice of defense against hook punch really depends on 'what kind of hook punch it really is',we must consider distance,postion of the shoulder/elbow and speed of the incoming attack.
Short range hooks are in my honest opinion more difficult to defend. They may lack in power,but they are still extremely dangerous and hard to catch. Tan Sao is always an option,or Tan-Da to be more precise,the best way is to counter it immediatly,no matter the position and range. Sometimes,if there's enough distance,you could also counter it with a straight punch,( left hand for right incoming hook and vice-versa ).
If it's an obvious hook ( given the chance the attacker is slower and inexperienced ) and distance is large enough,straight kicks are also an option.
I am not experienced Wing Chun practicioner myself,just started doing it seriously,but i had my share of fights and those i fought usually used hooks and circle attacks,somewhat natural way to fight ( for those without experience that is ).. I usually placed my hand in "Tan Sao" position,or something similiar,quite naturally,even before i had any Wing Chun training.
Hope that helped,if at all.
Cheerz and respect to ALL Wing Chun schools.

 

[zepedawingchun]

. . . . . Tan Sao is always an option,or Tan-Da to be more precise,the best way is to counter it immediatly,no matter the position and range. Sometimes,if there's enough distance,you could also counter it with a straight punch,( left hand for right incoming hook and vice-versa ). . . . .

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Tan sau is not the best option. A lot of people use it against a hook, but that doesn't make it the best option. You have to remember, a hook is a circular punch either to the head or lower ribs (if performed correctly). No one hooks to your chest (why would they with all that mass to get through). Tan sau is projected forward to disperse anything it meets head on. Tan sau does not work well with energy coming from the side. A hook just slips around behind the hand and comes in. So it actually overpowers the tan moving it off its line from the side. Also, tan sau is not supposed to be used to protect the face or lower ribs. In order to do that, the elbow would have to be at neck level for the face, making the tan too high and very weak, and waist level to protect the lower ribs (too low). To protect the face you should use biu sau (biu da) and the lower ribs you should use gan sau (gan da). If you have time to use a tan sau (tan da), you also have time to use a biu (da) or a gan (da).

 

[wtxs]

Tan Sao is always an option,or Tan-Da to be more precise,the best way is to counter it immediatly,no matter the position and range.

If you have time to use a tan sau (tan da), you also have time to use a biu (da) or a gan (da).

Even when used in an forward "cutting" manner, the Tan Sao / Tan Da is structurally weak against the hook, ie its momentum can collapse the Tan and leave you high oustside gate wide open, not to mention compromise you balance and body structure.

I'm with Zepeda on the Bui, and the "outside fook" shown in the video to be more suitable.

 

[Svemocn1vidar]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Tan sau is not the best option. A lot of people use it against a hook, but that doesn't make it the best option. You have to remember, a hook is a circular punch either to the head or lower ribs (if performed correctly). No one hooks to your chest (why would they with all that mass to get through). Tan sau is projected forward to disperse anything it meets head on. Tan sau does not work well with energy coming from the side. A hook just slips around behind the hand and comes in. So it actually overpowers the tan moving it off its line from the side. Also, tan sau is not supposed to be used to protect the face or lower ribs. In order to do that, the elbow would have to be at neck level for the face, making the tan too high and very weak, and waist level to protect the lower ribs (too low). To protect the face you should use biu sau (biu da) and the lower ribs you should use gan sau (gan da). If you have time to use a tan sau (tan da), you also have time to use a biu (da) or a gan (da).

I wonder where did i state that Tan Sao is the best option? I only indicated "Tan Sao is always an option". I also implied that i belive choice should be made according to distance of the attacker,thus,many options come into play. Usually there's no time to think and body will work on it's own. So far,my reactions against a hook were bursting forward and stoping it with Tan Da. It worked for me,i never said it's "the best option". I agree on using Biu da as one of the best options.
Also as stated by other member,reverse fuk sao is also an option and a good one for that matter. That's about it.
Cheerz.

 

[zepedawingchun]

I wonder where did i state that Tan Sao is the best option? I only indicated "Tan Sao is always an option". I also implied that i belive choice should be made according to distance of the attacker,thus,many options come into play. Usually there's no time to think and body will work on it's own. So far,my reactions against a hook were bursting forward and stoping it with Tan Da. It worked for me,i never said it's "the best option". I agree on using Biu da as one of the best options.
Also as stated by other member,reverse fuk sao is also an option and a good one for that matter. That's about it.
Cheerz.

Tan sau is an option, pak sau is an option, bong sau is an option, fut sau is an option, kwan sau is an option, any of the Wing Chun hand positions are options. You can use any hand position you like, but that doesn't make them the correct response against the hook. Personally, I like to be safe and trust whatever hand position I use will work without having to second guess it.

I put best option because a majority (a lot) of Wing Chun practitioners use tan sau as the only option. Using tan is just like driving your street car in a Formula 1 race, your car will finish most likely, but it's not the right car to be driving in that race. The same with a tan sau against a hook, it may work, but it isnot the correct response. And tan works most time because the people throwing the hook do it sloppily or incorrectly. Against a trained boxer, or someone who throws the hook correctly, the tan sau will fail a majority of the time. Tan sau was not designed to be used against a hook, biu sau (hook high) and gan sau (hook low) are. Use the right tool for the right job only makes sense.

(Note: the hand position I'm talking about, biu sau, is slightly different than biu jee)

 

[geezer]

Use the right tool for the right job only makes sense.
(Note: the hand position I'm talking about, biu sau, is slightly different than biu jee)

I think you are right on the money with your analysis, Zepeda. One thing that continues to cause a little trouble here is the different way various groups apply the classic Chinese terms. For example, the groups coming out of a "WT" background favor "tan-da" and "fook -da" sau. But the tan is more of a "ko-tan sau" or high, forward projecting tan, and the technique I prefer, "fook-da" uses a forward driving, palm down "fook" that sounds a lot like how you describe your "biu sau" or Mook's (TST lineage) "dai-sau", but not at all like our "biu tze sau" (also "shat-geng sau"). Sometimes I think arguments get unnecessarily prolonged online because of the limitations of language. If we were all together in a kwoon, each could demonstrate what they mean. I know when I see a simpler, more effective solution.... that's the end of the argument. I adopt that technique.

 

[zepedawingchun]

I think you are right on the money with your analysis, Zepeda. One thing that continues to cause a little trouble here is the different way various groups apply the classic Chinese terms. For example, the groups coming out of a "WT" background favor "tan-da" and "fook -da" sau. But the tan is more of a "ko-tan sau" or high, forward projecting tan, and the technique I prefer, "fook-da" uses a forward driving, palm down "fook" that sounds a lot like how you describe your "biu sau" or Mook's (TST lineage) "dai-sau", but not at all like our "biu tze sau" (also "shat-geng sau"). Sometimes I think arguments get unnecessarily prolonged online because of the limitations of language. If we were all together in a kwoon, each could demonstrate what they mean. I know when I see a simpler, more effective solution.... that's the end of the argument. I adopt that technique.

Geezer, always the diplomat. Follow the link below, it is an article my Sifu's top student at the time (1987-88, somewhere in there) wrote and made it to Inside Kung Fu. In it is a sequence where he shows biu da. The first sequence it is used is 3 pictures going vertically then 3 pictures horizontally. Focus pads are being used by the feeder in both sequences.

http://www.francisfongacademy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=103

As stated earlier, a hook is either to the head or to the ribs. No one hooks to the chest, it doesn't make sense to do that. If a hook is to the head (like in the pictures), using tan sau that high is incorrect, it is too weak. So biu sau is the proper response.