WC counter to a hook or outside punch

[mook jong man]

Thanks for chiming and posting good pics / video Mook, I was not familiar with Dai Sau at all. In practice it looks very similar to the outward fook sau movement I was initially taught. I see your point about being able to easily roll to Bong Sau if needed. I don't think the high Tan Sau could roll to Bong Sau without collapsing due since the elbow is already so high.

I only use Tan Sau against straight punches and spinning back- fists mate.

Using it against a hook is just too damn risky in my opinion , the harder you throw a hook against a Dai Sau the more it hurts your arm , I don't feel that against a Tan Sau.

Besides , with a Dai Sau sometimes you get a bonus limb destruction as they accidentally ram their inner forearm into the point of your elbow. :EG:

 

[geezer]

Thanks for chiming and posting good pics / video Mook, I was not familiar with Dai Sau at all. In practice it looks very similar to the outward fook sau movement I was initially taught. I see your point about being able to easily roll to Bong Sau if needed...

Agreed. In the WT I learned from LT back in the 80s, we used this same "dai-sau" response to good effect, but like you we called it "Fook-sau" --not to be confused with the hook-wristed fook sau used in chi sau. I continue to use it and train it using the "four corners drill", much like Mook.

 

[JPinAZ]

Marnetmar , here is one of my students and I doing a bit of light stuff using the Dai Sau in four corner deflection.

The deflection for the low strikes we call Chit Sau.

Thanks for sharing. Looking at the pics and then your video, I was reminded of when I first started training WC and that I was shown something like this. I soon found out that when I tried this against someone that could throw proper, tight hooks (and even more-seriously committed looser 'haymakers'), this shape and facing you are demonstrating didn't really hold up all too well. I later learned that it was a lesson my teacher was trying to pass along about how important it is to have proper facing along with the tools when working 4-gate (corners) defense.

I realize the pics are posed most likely for promotional purposes, but none of them represent anything I would deem as a realistic hooking attack. Watching the video I see more of the same the same (no 'body' behind the hook, it is out of range to make contact, etc) and assume the intent was just to demo the idea (?) I'm not trying to slight you either, so wanted to ask if you have any clips of you using this against someone that has some experience & training throwing these types of attacks with proper body mechanics and doing so with more intent and commitment to actually hit you?

Thanks,
JP

 

[mook jong man]

Thanks for sharing. Looking at the pics and then your video, I was reminded of when I first started training WC and that I was shown something like this. I soon found out that when I tried this against someone that could throw proper, tight hooks (and even more-seriously committed looser 'haymakers'), this shape and facing you are demonstrating didn't really hold up all too well. I later learned that it was a lesson my teacher was trying to pass along about how important it is to have proper facing along with the tools when working 4-gate (corners) defense.

I realize the pics are posed most likely for promotional purposes, but none of them represent anything I would deem as a realistic hooking attack. Watching the video I see more of the same the same (no 'body' behind the hook, it is out of range to make contact, etc) and assume the intent was just to demo the idea (?) I'm not trying to slight you either, so wanted to ask if you have any clips of you using this against someone that has some experience & training throwing these types of attacks with proper body mechanics and doing so with more intent and commitment to actually hit you?

Thanks,
JP

No I don't have any video of it.
But in the past I have tested it against very heavy force.
I did say that the video was light stuff , because we didn't have any arm pads on.

What you say is true though , there is a lot of power in a tight hook that's for sure.
But by the same token you should be throwing your own punch out as soon as you see movement , you are not just going to stand there and let the deflection take the full brunt of the force.

The thing with a tight hook is that the force is coming around from the side , and I stated in earlier posts about reflecting the opponents elbow.
This is absolutely crucial , if the opponent is throwing a more straightish type of hook then you will be raising your Dai Sau up with your elbow in to match his elbow .

But if the the opponent is using a very tight hook then your elbow will be right out to match his elbow .
As you intercept and make contact you also raise up and slightly rotate your Dai Sau in a circular fashion like you are doing half a Bong Sau which helps to absorb a bit more of the force from the hook.

The beauty of the technique though is that in the event that the incoming force is too great which is often the case as in a powerful tight hook or a swinging Choy Lay Fut strike , then you must convert it into Bong Sau and pivot to let the force ride over and away from you.
Then you lap sau the arm and Fak Sau the throat.

But you have to train for this , it won't happen automatically , you have to practice changing the Dai Sau into a Bong Sau and pivoting .
Pretty soon you start to get a feeling for when the Dai Sau is taking too much pressure from the side and you immediately change into Bong and pivot.

Again I have to reiterate , any deflection is only your secondary defence , your primary defence is to get your own punch out there as fast and as hard as you can.

 

[Kwan Sau]

I have found the opposite to be better. Isn't that odd eh? I guess that's the cool part about WC...it can fit a multitude of body types/shapes/personalities, etc .
Tan sau vs spinning backfist...sure I can see that as a possible solution. But Tan sau's (at least for me and my WC) work wonders against wild looping haymakers; whereas a Bil sau or even a Fot sau for the tighter boxer-type hooks at closer range etc.
Thx for posting the vid.

I only use Tan Sau against straight punches and spinning back- fists mate.

Using it against a hook is just too damn risky in my opinion , the harder you throw a hook against a Dai Sau the more it hurts your arm , I don't feel that against a Tan Sau.

Besides , with a Dai Sau sometimes you get a bonus limb destruction as they accidentally ram their inner forearm into the point of your elbow. :EG:

 

[mook jong man]

I have found the opposite to be better. Isn't that odd eh? I guess that's the cool part about WC...it can fit a multitude of body types/shapes/personalities, etc .
Tan sau vs spinning backfist...sure I can see that as a possible solution. But Tan sau's (at least for me and my WC) work wonders against wild looping haymakers; whereas a Bil sau or even a Fot sau for the tighter boxer-type hooks at closer range etc.
Thx for posting the vid.

Yeah against spinning back fist , use Tan Sau in tandem with a low side palm to the kidneys then stamp kick to the back of the knee.

Another variation is to do Tan Sau , low side palm , and stamp kick all at once.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

Can someone repost the pics because for some reason I can't view them on my iphone and I'm intrigued about the technique.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How does it work against an aggressive boxer who slips your big double fist and moves in close with short, sharp hooks? ... the opponent grabs your bridge and turns you aside while simultaneously punching with the other hand?

When your opponent

- uses short, sharp hooks at you, there will be a gap between his upper arm and his lower arm. You will separate your big fist, move one arm into that space (between his upper arm and his lower arm), and wrap his upper arm. Now your body and your opponent's body are "connected". Your opponent can't move away from you. You then use the other arm as a 45 degree downward haymaker, hit on the back of his head, and then apply a head lock on him.
- uses one hand to grab your big double fists, you will also separate your arms, wrap one arm around your opponent's grabbing arm, and use the other arm to deal with his incoming punch, you comb your hair, use your haymaker to hit on the back of his head, and get a head lock on him.

Your arms will function as 2 octopus arms that can wrap on anything that your arm can 'touch".

This is what you want to achieve. When your opponent tries to deal with your double big fist, you want to get a head lock on him. As long as his arms are not protecting his head, his head will be open for you.

If your opponent uses boxing guard to guard his head well, it's very difficult to get a head lock on him. You use your big fist to "invite" his arms to be away from his head. That's your intention.

 

[JPinAZ]

John, in your last post, are you describing your response from a WC perspective, or SJ/wrestling perspective?
I ask because the video attached doesn't seem to have much to do with typical WC methods, principle or body mechanics as most people will view them, so it could be confusing what you are trying to share on a thread titled "WC counter to hook or outside punch".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That post was to respond to geezer's 2 questions - short sharp hook and grab bridge.

 

[mook jong man]

When your opponent

- uses short, sharp hooks at you, there will be a gap between his upper arm and his lower arm. You will separate your big fist, move one arm into that space (between his upper arm and his lower arm), and wrap his upper arm. Now your body and your opponent's body are "connected". Your opponent can't move away from you. You then use the other arm as a 45 degree downward haymaker, hit on the back of his head, and then apply a head lock on him.
- uses one hand to grab your big double fists, you will also separate your arms, wrap one arm around your opponent's grabbing arm, and use the other arm to deal with his incoming punch, you comb your hair, use your haymaker to hit on the back of his head, and get a head lock on him.

Your arms will function as 2 octopus arms that can wrap on anything that your arm can 'touch".

This is what you want to achieve. When your opponent tries to deal with your double big fist, you want to get a head lock on him. As long as his arms are not protecting his head, his head will be open for you.

If your opponent uses boxing guard to guard his head well, it's very difficult to get a head lock on him. You use your big fist to "invite" his arms to be away from his head. That's your intention.

John , we know you mean well and everything , but your Big Fist thing has got absolutely nothing to do with Wing Chun principles at all.
On a side note I do like that training location you have there , looks like a large deck of some sort overlooking some rather beautiful scenery , with the birds twittering in the background , very relaxing.

Nice place to meditate I imagine , or even better just sit there and reflect with a six pack of your favourite brew.

 

[geezer]

John , we know you mean well and everything , but your Big Fist thing has got absolutely nothing to do with Wing Chun principles at all.

@ John and Mook: True, the big fist is not WC. It is however an interesting way for a grappler to penetrate a striker's defenses and get into the clinch/throw range. And it does share the wedging concept of the WC man-sau/wu-sau guard. And, I have encountered a lot of situations where I've countered a haymaker using a fook-da (similar to your dai-sau and punch) and finished with a throw very much like John's, but using a sweep that is actually a huen-bo or "circle step" with a turn. I'm not sure if it's great WC, but throwing people down is really fun.

On a side note I do like that training location you have there , looks like a large deck of some sort overlooking some rather beautiful scenery , with the birds twittering in the background , very relaxing.

Nice place to meditate I imagine , or even better just sit there and reflect with a six pack of your favourite brew.

Hmmmm. Every time I see one of John's videos shot on that deck I think the same thing.