How would a high level Tai Chi martial artist do against a high level MMA?

[K-man]

Try this: it's on Facebook, so YMMV.
Gawain Siu Facebook

Loved the way he kept his structure while destroying the structure of his opponent.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Chen Ziqiang San shou

 

[mograph]

Well, yeah, but ... What if the MMA guy had a pointed stick?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm act

Well, yeah, but ... What if the MMA guy had a pointed stick?

I'm actually more concerned about a bunch Raspberries

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Since some folks didn't care for the clip of a Tai Chi master grappling with a bigger, but relatively unskilled wrestler, I'll just post this video of "Tuishou" Chen Chi Cheng working takedowns with Marcelo Garcia:

Marcelo is dominant, but I'm not going to cite that as proving the superiority of BJJ. Marcelo Garcia is a world-class grappler regardless of system. As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Chen demonstrates genuine skill and does much better than I would have done against Marcelo.

 

[mograph]

Marcelo is dominant, but I'm not going to cite that as proving the superiority of BJJ. Marcelo Garcia is a world-class grappler regardless of system. As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Chen demonstrates genuine skill and does much better than I would have done against Marcelo.

Good clip. So, would "it depends on the fighter" answer the original question?

I hope so.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Since some folks didn't care for the clip of a Tai Chi master grappling with a bigger, but relatively unskilled wrestler, I'll just post this video of "Tuishou" Chen Chi Cheng working takedowns with Marcelo Garcia:

Marcelo is dominant, but I'm not going to cite that as proving the superiority of BJJ. Marcelo Garcia is a world-class grappler regardless of system. As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Chen demonstrates genuine skill and does much better than I would have done against Marcelo.

That's awesome, by the way Chen Chi Cheng is the Tai Chi World Cup Champion in Tuishou. I do not think he is a Chen taijiquan family member, but I could be wrong there

 

[zzj]

Since some folks didn't care for the clip of a Tai Chi master grappling with a bigger, but relatively unskilled wrestler, I'll just post this video of "Tuishou" Chen Chi Cheng working takedowns with Marcelo Garcia:

Marcelo is dominant, but I'm not going to cite that as proving the superiority of BJJ. Marcelo Garcia is a world-class grappler regardless of system. As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Chen demonstrates genuine skill and does much better than I would have done against Marcelo.

It's actually great to see a video like this. I'm all for more interaction with other arts, and it shows that us tai chi guys have to learn and develop the strategies to counter the strengths of other well tested arts like BJJ in this case.

Overall it was still a credible performance on the part of Chen Chi Cheng (I'm quite sure he is not a Chen Family Member; Chen is one of the most common Chinese Surnames so it wouldn't be a surprise). He executed a few pushes/moves that would have resulted in a win in a tuishou match, but outside of tuishou rules they wouldn't seem quite as significant.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I really like watching that clip, the atmosphere great, martial artists being martial artists and enjoying what they are doing and neither trying to show off and the the interaction between the two, relaxed, happy and learning was great. That is the way it should be.

I would also like to add watching that clip; Marcelo Garcia is very good at maintaining and controlling his own center, a rather awesome display of skill actually

 

[Steve]

I really like watching that clip, the atmosphere great, martial artists being martial artists and enjoying what they are doing and neither trying to show off and the the interaction between the two, relaxed, happy and learning was great. That is the way it should be.

I would also like to add watching that clip; Marcelo Garcia is very good at maintaining and controlling his own center, a rather awesome display of skill actually

Marcelo Garcia is truly one of the greats. He is elite among the elite.

 

[Hanzou]

Since some folks didn't care for the clip of a Tai Chi master grappling with a bigger, but relatively unskilled wrestler, I'll just post this video of "Tuishou" Chen Chi Cheng working takedowns with Marcelo Garcia:

Marcelo is dominant, but I'm not going to cite that as proving the superiority of BJJ. Marcelo Garcia is a world-class grappler regardless of system. As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Chen demonstrates genuine skill and does much better than I would have done against Marcelo.

If a wrestler doesn't know how to do double leg takedowns or ankle picks, he's quite a bit below "unskilled".

That Garcia clip is more of what I was looking for. Attacking the legs is more of what I'd expect from a wrestling/ grappling exponent. Kind of surprising that there's no answer for that in Tuishou.

 

[Steve]

If a wrestler doesn't know how to do double leg takedowns or ankle picks, he's quite a bit below "unskilled".

That Garcia clip is more of what I was looking for. Attacking the legs is more of what I'd expect from a wrestling/ grappling exponent. Kind of surprising that there's no answer for that in Tuishou.

To be fair, the tai chi guy seems to do a pretty good job of controlling distance and framing up to avoid the takedowns to his legs. While Marcelo Garcia does clearly manage to take him down often, it's effing Marcelinho, one of the best ever. No one looks good sparring with him.

 

[Hanzou]

To be fair, the tai chi guy seems to do a pretty good job of controlling distance and framing up to avoid the takedowns to his legs. While Marcelo Garcia does clearly manage to take him down often, it's effing Marcelinho, one of the best ever. No one looks good sparring with him.

Eh, I think he did a good job not being controlled above the waist, which is important. However, the lack of DLT and pick defenses was quite surprising. That's pretty elementary stuff right there.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Kind of surprising that there's no answer for that in Tuishou.

Here is the thing about that statement, you are judging all Taiji tuishuo by what you see Chen Chi Cheng doing and if you knew tuishou you would know that was simply not correct. What Chen Chi Cheng trained for was World Cup Tuishou competitions and leg takedows like that are simply not allowed. As a matter of fact the stuff you see Chen Ziqiang when he turns somebody and takes their legs out from under them is not allowed in World Cup Tuishou either. Traditional Tuishou, Traditional Tuishou with Sanshou, and competition Tuishou are not the same things.

What I would like to see is someone at the level of a Marcelo Garcia do a similar thing with Chen Ziqiang or another of the Chen family 20th generation, whose name escapes me at the moment, who is into the fighting of it.

Now it could be that Chen Ziqiang gets his butt kicked, or it could be real interesting to watch, but he is more likely to know how to deal with leg takedowns and such attacks and he is more likely to try and take his opponants legs out from under him than Chen Chi Cheng is. And that is because what Chen Ziqiang is doing is a more traditional Tuishou with Sanshou in it.

 

[Flying Crane]

Here is the thing about that statement, you are judging all Taiji tuishuo by what you see Chen Chi Cheng doing and if you knew tuishou you would know that was simply not correct. What Chen Chi Cheng trained for was World Cup Tuishou competitions and leg takedows like that are simply not allowed. As a matter of fact the stuff you see Chen Ziqiang when he turns somebody and takes their legs out from under them is not allowed in World Cup Tuishou either. Traditional Tuishou, Traditional Tuishou with Sanshou, and competition Tuishou are not the same things.

What I would like to see is someone at the level of a Marcelo Garcia do a similar thing with Chen Ziqiang or another of the Chen family 20th generation, whose name escapes me at the moment, who is into the fighting of it.

Now it could be that Chen Ziqiang gets his butt kicked, or it could be real interesting to watch, but he is more likely to know how to deal with leg takedowns and such attacks and he is more likely to try and take his opponants legs out from under him than Chen Chi Cheng is. And that is because what Chen Ziqiang is doing is a more traditional Tuishou with Sanshou in it.

Well since hanzou decided to open up this silly little door, couldn't just appreciate the video for what it is, here goes some more stupidity: hey, did anyone notice that nobody was throwing any strikes? Looks to me like the Chen guy was willing to go in there and play by the bjj rules. That was pretty sporting of him to do so.

But I saw a ton of places where the Chen guy could have hit the bjj guy, but in what I must assume was a show of camaraderie and good sportsmanship, he didn't.

So if this was a real fight, that whole unexplored striking bit remains a bit of a mystery as to how it would have played out.

And yes, the striking could have gone both ways.

Some people (hanzou) just have no class.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well since hanzou decided to open up this silly little door, couldn't just appreciate the video for what it is, here goes some more stupidity: hey, did anyone notice that nobody was throwing any strikes? Looks to me like the Chen guy was willing to go in there and play by the bjj rules. That was pretty sporting of him to do so.

But I saw a ton of places where the Chen guy could have hit the bjj guy, but in what I must assume was a show of camaraderie and good sportsmanship, he didn't.

So if this was a real fight, that whole unexplored striking bit remains a bit of a mystery as to how it would have played out.

And yes, the striking could have gone both ways.

Some people (hanzou) just have no class.

Had a similar thought about striking as well and also thought sportsman ship and MAist comradery (which is another thing that impressed me about the video, but I'm an old school MA guy so we think of such things), and the truth is Chen Ziqiang can hit too, and rather hard, if he were to go that route

 

[Flying Crane]

Had a similar thought about striking as well, and the truth is Chen Ziqiang can hit too, and rather hard, if he were to go that route

That's what I figured. I wasn't going to raise the issue because it was clear from the video that this was a fun, good-willed get together that wasn't meant to be an all-out match. But ya know, then certain people open their mouths and this is the turn the discussion takes.

 

[Hanzou]

Here is the thing about that statement, you are judging all Taiji tuishuo by what you see Chen Chi Cheng doing and if you knew tuishou you would know that was simply not correct. What Chen Chi Cheng trained for was World Cup Tuishou competitions and leg takedows like that are simply not allowed. As a matter of fact the stuff you see Chen Ziqiang when he turns somebody and takes their legs out from under them is not allowed in World Cup Tuishou either. Traditional Tuishou, Traditional Tuishou with Sanshou, and competition Tuishou are not the same things.

What I would like to see is someone at the level of a Marcelo Garcia do a similar thing with Chen Ziqiang or another of the Chen family 20th generation, whose name escapes me at the moment, who is into the fighting of it.

Now it could be that Chen Ziqiang gets his butt kicked, or it could be real interesting to watch, but he is more likely to know how to deal with leg takedowns and such attacks and he is more likely to try and take his opponants legs out from under him than Chen Chi Cheng is. And that is because what Chen Ziqiang is doing is a more traditional Tuishou with Sanshou in it.

I'm judging it on the fact that you had two guys grappling, and one guy wasn't able to stop or counter leg takedowns, something which is fairly elementary in wrestling and grappling in general. It seems bizarre that you would use the excuse that he was training for a competition. Why would you train for a competition that didn't allow leg attacks with a guy who is going to use leg attacks?

 

[Hanzou]

Well since hanzou decided to open up this silly little door, couldn't just appreciate the video for what it is, here goes some more stupidity: hey, did anyone notice that nobody was throwing any strikes? Looks to me like the Chen guy was willing to go in there and play by the bjj rules. That was pretty sporting of him to do so.

But I saw a ton of places where the Chen guy could have hit the bjj guy, but in what I must assume was a show of camaraderie and good sportsmanship, he didn't.

So if this was a real fight, that whole unexplored striking bit remains a bit of a mystery as to how it would have played out.

And yes, the striking could have gone both ways.

Some people (hanzou) just have no class.

That's a pretty silly argument considering that it was a grappling match. In grappling the legs are always fair game, which makes it strange that the Tai Chi exponent didn't utilize any counters for those attacks. For any grappler, its pretty common sense that if you can't push around a guy above the hips, you start going for the legs. Hell, that's what I use against Judo guys, since they're almost impossible to throw.

Also, Bjj practitioners have already established that they can deal with strikers.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

That's a pretty silly argument considering that it was a grappling match. In grappling the legs are always fair game, which makes it strange that the Tai Chi exponent didn't utilize any counters for those attacks.

Is Greco-Roman wrestling not considered grappling? How about judo under the new rules which don't allow grabbing the legs? Is that not grappling either?

It seems bizarre that you would use the excuse that he was training for a competition. Why would you train for a competition that didn't allow leg attacks with a guy who is going to use leg attacks?

I very much doubt he considered this bout with Marcelo to be preparation for any sort of competition. The two were obviously just having a good time trying stuff out with each other and sharing a learning experience as martial artists. It just so happens that Mr. Chen's background is in a form of grappling competition which (like Greco-Roman or the modern judo ruleset) does not allow grabbing the legs.