Is High Level Skill Still Possible

[Xue Sheng]

I hope so but I am not sure and this applies to any MA I just put it in CMA because I am a CMA guy and the basis of this is Chen Fa Ke who is most certainly CMA.

I was recently reading and old article in Tai Chi Magazine by Peter Wu Shizeng about Chen Fa Ke (1887-1957) and his level of skill. Chan Fa Ke was the Chen Family member that designed Chen Xinjia Yilu and Erlu. The article was also discussing if it was possible for anyone today to reach that same level of skill in Chinese Martial Arts. And the article pretty much left me with the thought that the author does not think so.

He based this on
1. Inheriting the Real Martial Art
2. Hard Training
3. Life-Long Pursuit
4. Extraordinary Strength
5. Noble Character

And it seems to me that based on number 1 and 2 it may not be possible in many CMA styles today if you are comparing it to Chen Fa Ke.

As far as “Inheriting the Real Martial Art” goes Chen Fa Ke was a member of the Chen family therefore taught by the Chen family in Chen Village. One of his Teachers was his father Chen Yanxi who was allegedly a highly skilled martial artist in Chen style Taijiquan.

As for “Hard Training” I am not sure anyone today has this kind of time but apparently doing the form 100 times a day was not out of the question at the time Chen Fa Ke was learning Chen style but apparently the normal amount was 60 times a day. And later when he was teaching he wanted his students to do the form at least 20 times a day. (One of his last living students is Feng Zhi Qiang)

“Life-Long Pursuit” It appears that Chen Fa Ke never stopped training and was never satisfied with his level of skill and even in old age was quite capable of doing all the forms that he learned and designed. But I do honestly believe there are people in the world trained CMA and MA that are much the same in this aspect

“Extraordinary Strength” Chen Fa Ke was very good at fajing and was quite capable of using it against larger opponents and sending them flying back rather far. He is also on record as having lifted a 220 lbs man vertically off the ground demonstrating Tuishou. Also Chen Yao (1841-1926) had a pair of Jain which weighted about 18 pounds that no one else at Chen Village trained with since they were too heavy, however it was Chen Fa Ke seemed to like training with them.
This to I believe is possible to achieve today, possibly not Chen Fa Ke’s skill at Fajing but there are certainly people alive that are equally as strong or stronger.

“Noble Character” Also Chen Fa Ke was apparently rather humble and not given to putting others down. This to is also still around today.

It is the first 2 that have me wondering “Inheriting the Real Martial Art” and “Hard Training”
Certainly in order to inherit the real martial art you have to have a teacher that has inherited it as well. I do think this too is possible today. Maybe not so much in some styles but I do believe there are other styles that have highly skilled and knowledgeable teachers.

Then it is the second one “Hard Training” that is the issue and again if you are using people like Chen Fa Ke as your baseline it is likely you will never have anyone of his level since very few people today have the time to train 8 to 15 hours a day and I am guessing based on doing forms 60 to 100 times a day. But can we train hard enough today to reach high level skill as compared to those of the not to distant past.

Tung Ying Chieh (Yang style) did say that it was possible to reach high level skill if you train less per day or see your sifu less as long as you were serious, it will just take longer. If this is the case then again using Chen Fa Ke as a baseline I am not sure someone doing a form 3 or 10 times a day is going to get them to his level in my lifetime but I still do not think we should not try.

What does everyone else think about this?

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Looking at life some time ago and now a days it is obvious that the 5 would be hard to follow. I think it is possible and only possible by the individual will to make it possible.

We are not all lucky enough to grow up in Chen village or may not have the brillant mind to create a new form but we may be able to be the best we can be.

 

[ggg214]

i think there is another factor which is most important: talent!
many teachers i have met have the same understanding: CMA practitioners, if they want to reach some level, need talent.
it's easy to find one or two characters mentioned in Xue Sheng's post in a person. but it's hard to find one person have the whole characters plus talent. really hard.

 

[clfsean]

I think it's possible to encompass a couple or multiple of those ideas, but I don't believe it's possible to do all of them. The world & environment doesn't allow for it. It's even impossible to withdraw from the world completely enough to focus on it. The world is way to small and connected now to do it.

Pieces... yep. Alll of it... don't believe so.

 

[grydth]

It is unlikely that our society will produce such high levels of proficiency. One factor is necessity - a modern American lacks a key motivator that every samurai had: our lives do not depend on our sword.

Another is loss of knowledge - when the samurai class was eliminated, doubtless much of the apparently useless knowledge likely went with them. Likely also, we now receive much diluted forms in many arts.

Legend has it that fakes would be terminated when a true master appeared at their door. Now, we are overrun by fakes and frauds in many arts, and they often prosper much more than the true masters.

We have serious distractions the olde masters and students did not - imagine the consequences on his proficency had Yang Cheng Fu become hooked on video games or TV 'reality' shows.

The above are only partially offset by the availability of better nutrition, better training facilities and scientific cures for disease and injury. This newfangled Internet is terrific for research and information transfer - but if the essence of an art has already been lost, there is nothing left to find.

 

[mograph]

1. Inheriting the art: tough. Given the shift from fighting to health, the fighting component is being lost. But that's not news to anyone.

2. Training intensity, we have that nowadays, but only in professional or olympic-level sports.

3. Life-long pursuit: the student has to start early and end late. Wushu kids have potential, but it's not institutionalized in the West, so it's not as popular as say, American football. As for starting late, just as young musicians give up playing because life intrudes, so the same goes for the Wushu kids, I suppose.

4. Extraordinary strength: I see this as the result of the other factors in this list, since some formerly sickly practitioners have shown great strength through Nei Gong practice, no?

5. Noble character: there's a lot of that out there, but the students may lack patience, faith and an open mind to turn a noble character into a great martial artist. And nowadays, people find it hard to combine the idea of a noble character with fighting arts. A lot of the Tai Chi people I know are scared to death (!) of being involved in anything that has martial intent, even for nei gong purposes.

Like the others who have written, I also believe that all these components exist today, but finding someone who possesses all five would be very difficult.

My 2 cents ...

 

[ngokfei]

while the 5 listed components are goals we strive to achieve, that is all that they are.

Only after our deaths will we be judged on whether we were able to accomplish any of them.

For me Highly Skilled involves mainly the Fighting and Health Skills acquired. The rest are only there for blending the Fighter into "respectable Society".

Throughout China's history a Carpenter/ARtisan was considered a higher social level then the fighter/soldier.

On with the additions of confucian ideas did we come up with the ideas of "Martial Artist". One obvious example was the inclusion of Ancstor Worship/lineage. Since most fghters built there knowledge on experience alot of the Older Lineages are more folk lore tale heros then real citizines/exponenets.

 

[oxy]

For me Highly Skilled involves mainly the Fighting and Health Skills acquired. The rest are only there for blending the Fighter into "respectable Society".

Throughout China's history a Carpenter/ARtisan was considered a higher social level then the fighter/soldier.

If I remember correctly, a Confucian education back then required tutelage in the martial arts as well.

Of course, back then, "martial arts" meant horse riding, archery and sword.

 

[Xue Sheng]

while the 5 listed components are goals we strive to achieve, that is all that they are.

Only after our deaths will we be judged on whether we were able to accomplish any of them.

For me Highly Skilled involves mainly the Fighting and Health Skills acquired. The rest are only there for blending the Fighter into "respectable Society".

Agreed, except I feel that #5 is the only one that could be thought of as bringing a fighter into "respectable society" but we are talking about this based on Chen Fa Ke (1887-1957) which is long after Confucius and Lao Tzu and in an era when fighters, particularly good ones, form a good lineage were pretty well respected in society

Throughout China's history a Carpenter/ARtisan was considered a higher social level then the fighter/soldier.

On with the additions of confucian ideas did we come up with the ideas of "Martial Artist". One obvious example was the inclusion of Ancstor Worship/lineage. Since most fghters built there knowledge on experience alot of the Older Lineages are more folk lore tale heros then real citizines/exponenets.

Actually you will find ancestor worship in China before Confucianism and in both Confucianism and Taoism.

And lineage has played a part in CMA for a very long time but then we are back to filial piety which is not specifically Confucian. And in China if you were a family member of a given family style you were more likely to make more money from it than if you were a student of said family. This is also one of the resaons you end up with variations on a style such as Taiji, Bagua, Xingyiquan, Tong Bei, etc.

As to martial artists being at a lower level in society than Carpenter and other Artisan I am not sure about that either. There is no doubt the average Martial artists buy today’s standards were not high on the social ladder but neither were what you are referring to as Artisans they were all just laborers in Chinese society. And today they still are not all that high on the social register in China. Artists however be they painters, carvers, musicians and calligraphers have always been (and still are) pretty high on the social list.

But as oxy pointed out way back when a martial artist was more as well as different from what we call a martial artist today.


But the question is can anyone achive high level today based on those 5?

 

[ngokfei]

Yes Ancestor worship has existed along time but my statement was its inclusion as part of legitimizing a fighters position in the social structure.

I'll have to find the one article I had read I believe from the Wulin Magazine of China some 3 years back.

Artisan is not the same a laborer. Laborers are unskilled workers like ditch diggers, porters, etc. Artisans relates to skilled individuals (ones who had undergone an apprentiship) like a Painter, sculpter, carpenter/cabinet or furniture maker etc. It is also where the term Sifu/shrfu originated for usage in martial Arts schools today.

Again I'd have to locate the article the specifically researched the evolution of the combat arts/soldiers or bodyguards into Martial Artists. They listed the evolution of the terms/names given to these individuals and I believe also their place in the class structure.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Artisans relates to skilled individuals (ones who had undergone an apprentiship) like a Painter, sculpter, carpenter/cabinet or furniture maker etc. It is also where the term Sifu/shrfu originated for usage in martial Arts schools today.

You are correct, I was looking at it form the wrong perspective (modern China). People like sword makers and Bow maker were fairly respected just be careful during dynastic change. So based on that I do not doubt that a person that went through an apprenticeship was respected more than a ditch digger or for that matter your average solider or martial artist (Generals not included )

But this was not the China of 1887 to 1957 as compared to a martial artist of Chan Fa Ke's level... and certainly not the China of later or today but that is another post.

I look forward to reading the article

Thanks

 

[zeeberex]

I hope so but I am not sure and this applies to any MA I just put it in CMA because I am a CMA guy and the basis of this is Chen Fa Ke who is most certainly CMA.

I was recently reading and old article in Tai Chi Magazine by Peter Wu Shizeng about Chen Fa Ke (1887-1957) and his level of skill. Chan Fa Ke was the Chen Family member that designed Chen Xinjia Yilu and Erlu. The article was also discussing if it was possible for anyone today to reach that same level of skill in Chinese Martial Arts. And the article pretty much left me with the thought that the author does not think so.

He based this on
1. Inheriting the Real Martial Art
2. Hard Training
3. Life-Long Pursuit
4. Extraordinary Strength
5. Noble Character

And it seems to me that based on number 1 and 2 it may not be possible in many CMA styles today if you are comparing it to Chen Fa Ke.

As far as “Inheriting the Real Martial Art” goes Chen Fa Ke was a member of the Chen family therefore taught by the Chen family in Chen Village. One of his Teachers was his father Chen Yanxi who was allegedly a highly skilled martial artist in Chen style Taijiquan.

As for “Hard Training” I am not sure anyone today has this kind of time but apparently doing the form 100 times a day was not out of the question at the time Chen Fa Ke was learning Chen style but apparently the normal amount was 60 times a day. And later when he was teaching he wanted his students to do the form at least 20 times a day. (One of his last living students is Feng Zhi Qiang)

“Life-Long Pursuit” It appears that Chen Fa Ke never stopped training and was never satisfied with his level of skill and even in old age was quite capable of doing all the forms that he learned and designed. But I do honestly believe there are people in the world trained CMA and MA that are much the same in this aspect

“Extraordinary Strength” Chen Fa Ke was very good at fajing and was quite capable of using it against larger opponents and sending them flying back rather far. He is also on record as having lifted a 220 lbs man vertically off the ground demonstrating Tuishou. Also Chen Yao (1841-1926) had a pair of Jain which weighted about 18 pounds that no one else at Chen Village trained with since they were too heavy, however it was Chen Fa Ke seemed to like training with them.
This to I believe is possible to achieve today, possibly not Chen Fa Ke’s skill at Fajing but there are certainly people alive that are equally as strong or stronger.

“Noble Character” Also Chen Fa Ke was apparently rather humble and not given to putting others down. This to is also still around today.

It is the first 2 that have me wondering “Inheriting the Real Martial Art” and “Hard Training”
Certainly in order to inherit the real martial art you have to have a teacher that has inherited it as well. I do think this too is possible today. Maybe not so much in some styles but I do believe there are other styles that have highly skilled and knowledgeable teachers.

Then it is the second one “Hard Training” that is the issue and again if you are using people like Chen Fa Ke as your baseline it is likely you will never have anyone of his level since very few people today have the time to train 8 to 15 hours a day and I am guessing based on doing forms 60 to 100 times a day. But can we train hard enough today to reach high level skill as compared to those of the not to distant past.

Tung Ying Chieh (Yang style) did say that it was possible to reach high level skill if you train less per day or see your sifu less as long as you were serious, it will just take longer. If this is the case then again using Chen Fa Ke as a baseline I am not sure someone doing a form 3 or 10 times a day is going to get them to his level in my lifetime but I still do not think we should not try.

What does everyone else think about this?

Methinks your answer lies in the apparent conflict between discipline to carry out the training verses the short attention span of the typical twenty first century human being. Good luck with that.

 

[zeeberex]

It is unlikely that our society will produce such high levels of proficiency. One factor is necessity - a modern American lacks a key motivator that every samurai had: our lives do not depend on our sword.

Another is loss of knowledge - when the samurai class was eliminated, doubtless much of the apparently useless knowledge likely went with them. Likely also, we now receive much diluted forms in many arts.

Legend has it that fakes would be terminated when a true master appeared at their door. Now, we are overrun by fakes and frauds in many arts, and they often prosper much more than the true masters.

We have serious distractions the olde masters and students did not - imagine the consequences on his proficency had Yang Cheng Fu become hooked on video games or TV 'reality' shows.

The above are only partially offset by the availability of better nutrition, better training facilities and scientific cures for disease and injury. This newfangled Internet is terrific for research and information transfer - but if the essence of an art has already been lost, there is nothing left to find.

I agree in particular with the remark regarding Japanese martial arts. Unfortunately as the Fuedal period ended so did the "edge" the arts had. Jujitsu and Aikijutsu became Judo and Aikido for example and as they evolved into a more acceptable sport like form one has to wonder how much "other" method/knowledge was potentially lost.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Methinks your answer lies in the apparent conflict between discipline to carry out the training verses the short attention span of the typical twenty first century human being. Good luck with that.

Good luck with what?

I am not saying I am doing this, I am just wondering if it is still possible based on the 5 listed

EDIT

I should add that bassed on the 5

1. Inheriting the Real Martial Art
2. Hard Training
3. Life-Long Pursuit
4. Extraordinary Strength
5. Noble Character

I feel, based on Chen Fa Ke, that 1 makes it nigh impossible 2 makes it really hard and as far as 3 goes highly unlikely.

So if Chen Fa Ke is the baseline of mastery it is not happening in the 21st century

 

[geezer]

I hope so but I am not sure and this applies to any MA I just put it in CMA because I am a CMA guy and the basis of this is Chen Fa Ke who is most certainly CMA.

I was recently reading and old article in Tai Chi Magazine by Peter Wu Shizeng about Chen Fa Ke (1887-1957) and his level of skill. Chan Fa Ke was the Chen Family member that designed Chen Xinjia Yilu and Erlu. The article was also discussing if it was possible for anyone today to reach that same level of skill in Chinese Martial Arts. And the article pretty much left me with the thought that the author does not think so.

He based this on
1. Inheriting the Real Martial Art
2. Hard Training
3. Life-Long Pursuit
4. Extraordinary Strength
5. Noble Character


As for “Hard Training” I am not sure anyone today has this kind of time but apparently doing the form 100 times a day was not out of the question at the time Chen Fa Ke was learning Chen style but apparently the normal amount was 60 times a day. And later when he was teaching he wanted his students to do the form at least 20 times a day.

I have a couple of problems with the whole premise here. It is a fact that the more hectic pace of modern life makes it difficult to train "the old way". Very few would have the time and focus to train that way, even if they had the means...including the ability and access to a master instructor. But on the other hand, contrary to tradition, there is a limit to the value of endless repetition. Doing a form 100 or even a mere 50 times a day seems excessive. And even if this has some merit, since no one has that much time anymore, it's a moot point. If the time is not available to invest 10 hours a day, then perhaps the answer lies in the old saying, "Train smarter, not harder". I would suggest that the key ingredients necessary for attaining superior skill would be:

1. The right teacher
2. Exceptional ability
3. Intelligence
4. Unusual drive and determination

I base this on a couple of individuals I know who have achieved a high level of skill. One is a martial artist, the other excells in another field. Interestingly, "noble character" in the sense of being a morally upstanding and socially responsible individual doesn't necessarily apply here at all.

 

[JadeDragon3]

No it is not possible.

 

[mograph]

Regarding the importance of "noble character", I'd say that a calm mind is necessary for high-level skill. In other words, a calm psychopath might achieve a higher level of skill than a nervous Samaritan, all other things being equal.

But ... if psychopaths are all narcissistic, then the calm psychopath should fail when facing the calm Buddhist who has truly relinquished or transcended "Self" ...?

Hmm.

(Personally, attempting to relinquish "self" helps my squash game, anyway.)

 

[jks9199]

No it is not possible.

Why not?

Y'know, MT is a discussion board; the idea is to share opinions and talk about them. A series of "NO", "YES", and "I DUNNOs" with no more to it just gets dull and boring...

I've noticed a few opinions by various posters in this thread and elsewhere, and I'd really be interested in hearing WHY folks feel the way they do...

 

[Formosa Neijia]

As for “Hard Training” I am not sure anyone today has this kind of time but apparently doing the form 100 times a day was not out of the question at the time Chen Fa Ke was learning Chen style but apparently the normal amount was 60 times a day. And later when he was teaching he wanted his students to do the form at least 20 times a day. (One of his last living students is Feng Zhi Qiang)

Then it is the second one “Hard Training” that is the issue and again if you are using people like Chen Fa Ke as your baseline it is likely you will never have anyone of his level since very few people today have the time to train 8 to 15 hours a day and I am guessing based on doing forms 60 to 100 times a day. But can we train hard enough today to reach high level skill as compared to those of the not to distant past.

Tung Ying Chieh (Yang style) did say that it was possible to reach high level skill if you train less per day or see your sifu less as long as you were serious, it will just take longer. If this is the case then again using Chen Fa Ke as a baseline I am not sure someone doing a form 3 or 10 times a day is going to get them to his level in my lifetime but I still do not think we should not try.

What does everyone else think about this?

This is nonsense. No one was doing the Chen forms 100 times a day. Nor was anyone training 15 hours a day.

Having great abilities is just as possible now as in any time in the past. But people MUST stop believing these fairy tales about the past.

Forms training doesn't make you deadly -- not five minutes of it or 15 hours a day for a million years.

If people want to be good, they have to start by thinking for themselves. Then do training that we know works -- working against resistance.

BTW, this post is aimed at the idea, not the person presenting them.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This is nonsense. No one was doing the Chen forms 100 times a day. Nor was anyone training 15 hours a day.

Having great abilities is just as possible now as in any time in the past. But people MUST stop believing these fairy tales about the past.

Forms training doesn't make you deadly -- not five minutes of it or 15 hours a day for a million years.

If people want to be good, they have to start by thinking for themselves. Then do training that we know works -- working against resistance.

BTW, this post is aimed at the idea, not the person presenting them.

Good point and no problem

I too have had my doubts Chen Fa Ke did the form 100 times a day, I did the math based on a form taking 20 minutes. That comes out to just over 33 hours , and forms work will not make you a martial artist that is for sure and I am pretty sure Chen Fa Ke did his fair share of applications training, push hands and sparing so we are no up to a day that is about 2 days long. Of course there is always the possibility he trained on Venus or Mercury, the days are longer there

But I also have no doubt Chen Fa Ke trained a lot and for his whole life and likely never was entirely happy with his form his entire life so he continually worked on it.

But I am thinking that very few, if any, have the time or desire to dedicate to CMA like Chen Fa Ke did and very few, if any, have access to the level of learning that Chen Fa Ke had. So is it possible to get to the same level as Chen Fa Ke did?