drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
It gets complicated. There is a lot of theoretical that gets applied. It is not just a force on force resisted training thing.
How to stop rapists...
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It gets complicated. There is a lot of theoretical that gets applied. It is not just a force on force resisted training thing.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
I will say this with confidence; There is a low chance that the average woman can knock out or disable the average man with strikes alone. Can it be done? Certainly. I would even add that a woman trained in MA can raise that chance from low to moderate. A woman should do everything in her power to prevent a rape, including punching and kicking. However, women should add grappling to their arsenal in case the first line of defense fails, as in the case of this TKD black belt.
Leaving the political stuff out....my thoughts.
It's all of the above.
For the women (and men, because men are raped too.) to avoid being a victim:
1 - Environmental Awareness. Be aware of your surroundings at all times. Before getting into your car, check the back seat. Have your house keys ready when exiting. Don't park in areas that are going to be dark. And so forth.
2 - Learn a solid self-defence art. Not a sport art. Winning trophies or a sport fight isn't the same as learning how to escape grabs, reverse locks, and inflict debilitating pain. Anything that assumes that attackers line up and take turns is out.
3 - Where practical, go out armed. Knife, Gun, Pepper Spray, pocket stick, audio alarms, stun gun, etc. My keys are a weapon, one that gets past TSA screeners. Rings can be dangerous. Etc.
4 - Be aware of where the "Bad" parts of town are, and avoid them. (See #1)
5 - Lock all doors and windows at night. (See #1)
6 - Don't be a "Tease". It's fine to change your mind or get cold feet. It's not fine to deliberately lead someone on, work them up, then put the breaks on just to watch them squirm.
7 - Use common sense and do your best to avoid putting yourself in vulnerable situations, to be able to defend yourself against attacks, and escape when possible.
8 - Where laws or other regulations put you at a disadvantage, look for legal ways to even the odds. (See #3)
For the men (and women, because women rape too) to avoid being the attacker:
- No means No. Period. "She teased me. I had a right to get off.", No, you had a right to respect the "No" and go spank it when you got home.
- Learn Respect. Respect for others. Respect for yourself.
- "She was asking for it". No, she wasn't. Even if she was, that is still no excuse.
You'll notice, I don't list "Dont dress provocatively" as an option. That's because, no matter what the person is wearing, or not wearing, it's not an invitation. Assless chaps, a half shirt and porn-star makeup isn't a request to be dragged behind a dumpster, beaten and violated. If you think it is, you need therapy.
For the Cops, DA's and Courts:
1 - Stop blaming the victim. A crime was commited. A person was assaulted. They were bodily violated. Have the decency to treat them with respect. I don't care if the person is a 2 bit prostitute who trades BJ's for beer money. It's still a crime. It's still assault. If you can't grasp that, you need to change careers and let someone with human decency take your place.
2 - Treat each case as serious.
3 - Do proper evidence collection, storage and information recording.
4 - Did I mention, treat the victim with respect and act professionally? Comments like "I'd **** you too", or "You shouldn't have been advertising like that" are not professional, and signs that you're not fit for the job. Your job isn't to judge the victims attire, physical attributes or choice of career. It's to deal with a sexual assault crime.
5 - Decriminalize Prostitution. Rape shouldn't be an occupational hazard.
My thoughts on the matter.
It's all of the above.
For the women (and men, because men are raped too.) to avoid being a victim:
1 - Environmental Awareness. Be aware of your surroundings at all times. Before getting into your car, check the back seat. Have your house keys ready when exiting. Don't park in areas that are going to be dark. And so forth.
2 - Learn a solid self-defence art. Not a sport art. Winning trophies or a sport fight isn't the same as learning how to escape grabs, reverse locks, and inflict debilitating pain. Anything that assumes that attackers line up and take turns is out.
3 - Where practical, go out armed. Knife, Gun, Pepper Spray, pocket stick, audio alarms, stun gun, etc. My keys are a weapon, one that gets past TSA screeners. Rings can be dangerous. Etc.
4 - Be aware of where the "Bad" parts of town are, and avoid them. (See #1)
5 - Lock all doors and windows at night. (See #1)
6 - Don't be a "Tease". It's fine to change your mind or get cold feet. It's not fine to deliberately lead someone on, work them up, then put the breaks on just to watch them squirm.
7 - Use common sense and do your best to avoid putting yourself in vulnerable situations, to be able to defend yourself against attacks, and escape when possible.
8 - Where laws or other regulations put you at a disadvantage, look for legal ways to even the odds. (See #3)
For the men (and women, because women rape too) to avoid being the attacker:
- No means No. Period. "She teased me. I had a right to get off.", No, you had a right to respect the "No" and go spank it when you got home.
- Learn Respect. Respect for others. Respect for yourself.
- "She was asking for it". No, she wasn't. Even if she was, that is still no excuse.
You'll notice, I don't list "Dont dress provocatively" as an option. That's because, no matter what the person is wearing, or not wearing, it's not an invitation. Assless chaps, a half shirt and porn-star makeup isn't a request to be dragged behind a dumpster, beaten and violated. If you think it is, you need therapy.
For the Cops, DA's and Courts:
1 - Stop blaming the victim. A crime was commited. A person was assaulted. They were bodily violated. Have the decency to treat them with respect. I don't care if the person is a 2 bit prostitute who trades BJ's for beer money. It's still a crime. It's still assault. If you can't grasp that, you need to change careers and let someone with human decency take your place.
2 - Treat each case as serious.
3 - Do proper evidence collection, storage and information recording.
4 - Did I mention, treat the victim with respect and act professionally? Comments like "I'd **** you too", or "You shouldn't have been advertising like that" are not professional, and signs that you're not fit for the job. Your job isn't to judge the victims attire, physical attributes or choice of career. It's to deal with a sexual assault crime.
5 - Decriminalize Prostitution. Rape shouldn't be an occupational hazard.
My thoughts on the matter.
Rape is a complex issue. So is victim blaming, which is what this thread is really about. Let me take each in turn... and realize that I'm really giving a superficial treatment of both issues.
First -- victim blaming. Only in the realm of sexual assaults and rape do we try to argue that the victim has no role in preventing a crime. We routinely advise people not to leave valuables in plain view in a parked, unattended car. We tell them to lock their doors. We encourage the use of security alarms. We tell people to be aware of their environment And nobody argues that we're blaming the victim or being unreasonable. Nobody suggests "just teach people not to steal/rob" as a reasonable premise. (Yes, it is part of the solution -- but that opens a whole 'nother can of worms if we get into general societal crime prevention!) We can even tell someone who got punched in the face after being a dumbass in a bar that they were an *******, and brought it on themselves. The offender can still be prosecuted -- but we can tell the guy he was an ***.
But if the crime in question is a rape or sexual assault... We can't suggest that getting drunk at a party filled with horny kids is unwise. We can't suggest that maybe walking down that particular street at that particular hour was unwise. We can't tell someone that by flirting with the offender for an hour, they helped to set themselves up. If you attempt to suggest that the victim bears any responsibility for prevention -- you're "victim blaming" and as bad as the offender. In the case of rape, we've even created a really bizarre double standard targeting men. A guy and girl both are drinking at a party, get equally drunk, and sleep together. In the morning, the guy might get arrested for rape because the girl was too drunk to consent. Even if she initiated everything, and without considering that he was just as drunk and therefore unable to judge her ability to consent.
Please, note, I am in absolutely no way suggesting that the ultimate and primary responsibility for a rape or sexual battery lies with the offender. No must mean no, even if you've been flirted with mercilessly for hours. It doesn't matter what's been done, or how far things have gone, no or stop means just that, immediately. (Though you can't roll the clock back before the no was said, assuming that everything was consensual to that point.)
Chris brought up some of the complexity of rape. I'll propose that just like there're social and asocial forms of violence -- there are social and asocial forms of rape. Social rapes or sexual batteries cover the range from misunderstood signals leading to an undesired kiss through date rape. These might be an unwelcome grope during a dance, too. These are the ones that Chris suggests are probably unreported, and where the offender could very reasonably believe they did nothing wrong, or at least that it wasn't rape. You can educate both parties so that these are less likely. Potential victims can learn not to send unclear signals and to stay alert; potential offenders can be taught to recognize the messages and helped to understand.
There's no question that an asocial rape is a rape. No matter the tactics used -- these are about the offender committing rape, and the victim's role is simple that of target. Ted Bundy was able to be charming and seem nice to get his victim to drop their guard, but that ploy was really nothing different than fisherman using a fake fly to snare a trout. Preventing these is all about teaching the victim to be aware, to recognize the set-ups, and developing self defense skills because you're not going to "teach <this> man not to rape." He knows it's wrong, and he just doesn't care. He knows what he wants, and he's going to get it.
First -- victim blaming. Only in the realm of sexual assaults and rape do we try to argue that the victim has no role in preventing a crime. We routinely advise people not to leave valuables in plain view in a parked, unattended car. We tell them to lock their doors. We encourage the use of security alarms. We tell people to be aware of their environment And nobody argues that we're blaming the victim or being unreasonable. Nobody suggests "just teach people not to steal/rob" as a reasonable premise. (Yes, it is part of the solution -- but that opens a whole 'nother can of worms if we get into general societal crime prevention!) We can even tell someone who got punched in the face after being a dumbass in a bar that they were an *******, and brought it on themselves. The offender can still be prosecuted -- but we can tell the guy he was an ***.
But if the crime in question is a rape or sexual assault... We can't suggest that getting drunk at a party filled with horny kids is unwise. We can't suggest that maybe walking down that particular street at that particular hour was unwise. We can't tell someone that by flirting with the offender for an hour, they helped to set themselves up. If you attempt to suggest that the victim bears any responsibility for prevention -- you're "victim blaming" and as bad as the offender. In the case of rape, we've even created a really bizarre double standard targeting men. A guy and girl both are drinking at a party, get equally drunk, and sleep together. In the morning, the guy might get arrested for rape because the girl was too drunk to consent. Even if she initiated everything, and without considering that he was just as drunk and therefore unable to judge her ability to consent.
Please, note, I am in absolutely no way suggesting that the ultimate and primary responsibility for a rape or sexual battery lies with the offender. No must mean no, even if you've been flirted with mercilessly for hours. It doesn't matter what's been done, or how far things have gone, no or stop means just that, immediately. (Though you can't roll the clock back before the no was said, assuming that everything was consensual to that point.)
Chris brought up some of the complexity of rape. I'll propose that just like there're social and asocial forms of violence -- there are social and asocial forms of rape. Social rapes or sexual batteries cover the range from misunderstood signals leading to an undesired kiss through date rape. These might be an unwelcome grope during a dance, too. These are the ones that Chris suggests are probably unreported, and where the offender could very reasonably believe they did nothing wrong, or at least that it wasn't rape. You can educate both parties so that these are less likely. Potential victims can learn not to send unclear signals and to stay alert; potential offenders can be taught to recognize the messages and helped to understand.
There's no question that an asocial rape is a rape. No matter the tactics used -- these are about the offender committing rape, and the victim's role is simple that of target. Ted Bundy was able to be charming and seem nice to get his victim to drop their guard, but that ploy was really nothing different than fisherman using a fake fly to snare a trout. Preventing these is all about teaching the victim to be aware, to recognize the set-ups, and developing self defense skills because you're not going to "teach <this> man not to rape." He knows it's wrong, and he just doesn't care. He knows what he wants, and he's going to get it.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Lol. Okay. So the political question on the table is whether or how society could teach men not to rape.
My political opinion is that you cannot deter a person who has some emotional or psychological chip broken that compels him to rape. But you can teach men to recognize mysogeny when they see it.
And to answer the unstated question, yeah. You're very smart bill and sure showed that dumb liberal over there. Nice job. I can't wait to hear how you get them with the 2nd amendment rhetoric.
My political opinion is that you cannot deter a person who has some emotional or psychological chip broken that compels him to rape. But you can teach men to recognize mysogeny when they see it.
And to answer the unstated question, yeah. You're very smart bill and sure showed that dumb liberal over there. Nice job. I can't wait to hear how you get them with the 2nd amendment rhetoric.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
i have been teaching and writing on line about rape defense for years. i am not going to go into a 5 page disertation here but for the most part the belief most people have including martial artists is complete made up fiction.
as usual Chirs Parker has a very thoughtfull well written post. but still this is not the entire picture. i do agree with most of what chris wrote. i would like to add that the reality is even more complex than that.
any defense put forth must take into account that the majority of rapes are commited by someone the victim knows. we can generally divide rapists into two groups, the ones who the victim knows and the ones she doesnt in most cases if she doesnt know the perpetrador then he is a serial rapist, even if this is his first attempt (these are formaly catagorized also but ill deal with that later) . for this thread and to make my point lets assume that the term and crime, serial rapists can also be associated as a serial killer since serial rapists often kill their victim. so how often does a women find herself facing a serial killer? not often. so the boogie man model of self defense and handgun solution while idealistic is not reality. you can arm every women in the world with a loaded handgun but she will not use it against ...her step father, brothers friend, sisters boyfriend, best friends older brother, co-worker ect ,,, you get the point. i am very pro-gun but i am also realistic about the human psychology of using lethal force.
there is an alarming growing trend of rape. however it is not clear if the crime is being commited more often or if it is a refection of more crimes being reported. my opinion is that amoung younger men the crime is being commited more often. there is an internet generation culture where phone pics, "sexting", "sefies", and "cam chatting" has paved the way for "upskirts" pics and other non- consensual acts of sexual behavior becoming accepted.
in many of these senarios martial arts training does not factor into its prevention. in other cases where there is physical violence your every day martial art falls very short of preparing the women for the intensity of sheer brutal violence. martial art training pales when held beside the reality.
as usual Chirs Parker has a very thoughtfull well written post. but still this is not the entire picture. i do agree with most of what chris wrote. i would like to add that the reality is even more complex than that.
this comment is not accurate but is also not 100 % wrong. there are clasifications for serial rapists and there is a small sub-sect that fall under the opportunity rape, usually a home invasion/ bugerlary where the opportunity is there as a secondary crime. but it is totaly inaccurate as a blanket statement.
any defense put forth must take into account that the majority of rapes are commited by someone the victim knows. we can generally divide rapists into two groups, the ones who the victim knows and the ones she doesnt in most cases if she doesnt know the perpetrador then he is a serial rapist, even if this is his first attempt (these are formaly catagorized also but ill deal with that later) . for this thread and to make my point lets assume that the term and crime, serial rapists can also be associated as a serial killer since serial rapists often kill their victim. so how often does a women find herself facing a serial killer? not often. so the boogie man model of self defense and handgun solution while idealistic is not reality. you can arm every women in the world with a loaded handgun but she will not use it against ...her step father, brothers friend, sisters boyfriend, best friends older brother, co-worker ect ,,, you get the point. i am very pro-gun but i am also realistic about the human psychology of using lethal force.
there is an alarming growing trend of rape. however it is not clear if the crime is being commited more often or if it is a refection of more crimes being reported. my opinion is that amoung younger men the crime is being commited more often. there is an internet generation culture where phone pics, "sexting", "sefies", and "cam chatting" has paved the way for "upskirts" pics and other non- consensual acts of sexual behavior becoming accepted.
in many of these senarios martial arts training does not factor into its prevention. in other cases where there is physical violence your every day martial art falls very short of preparing the women for the intensity of sheer brutal violence. martial art training pales when held beside the reality.
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Hanzou
Grandmaster
While I agree with that, I still think its vital for women to arm themselves with martial arts. I also stick by my original assertion that Judo or Bjj would be the ideal unarmed self defense methods to counter a rape-style attack. I would also probably edge Bjj a bit ahead of Judo due to Bjj's more intense focus on fighting from positions of weakness (i.e. on the back, on your side, on all fours, etc.).
While no art can mirror reality completely, again I believe that rolling with burly men day in and day out at combat speed will make a woman a lot more effective at handling herself when a burly man is on top of her trying to take her pants off. These arts will also allow this woman to subdue her attacker without permanently injuring him (if she so desires of course).
donald1
Senior Master
I don't think they want to learn some people make excuses to believe the wrong is acceptable in some situation. But maybe some people just don't care and only see their side of the story
I concur, you can no longer teach a common thief that they are doing wrong. It is all habitual, if one man creates an idea that violating women and the womb is acceptable, then is only one recourse. Take away the ability, you have to quash the urge. Cut them off and be done with it, if they are psychologically scared, so be it!
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hoshin1600
Senior Master
this is true BJJ will make a women more skilled at wrestling with a man. but martial artists have a hollywood picture in their heads about how a rape will happen and a fantasy response to that attack. reality says otherwise.
case:
The Power Assertive rapist.
a woman has finished her grocery shopping and is putting her bags in the trunk of her car. it is about 2:00 in the afternoon. a car pulls up next to her but pays no attention because it is a parking lot. a man steps out of the car and is in a rage. before she realizes he is there, he punches her repeatly in the back as he holds her head down into the trunk of the car. he continues to bash her head untill she is almost unconscious. he then proceeds to tear off her skirt and rapes her as he continually bashes her in the back of the head. the entire crime only took 5 minutes. store cameras caught the license plate and he was later arrested.
how does your gun, mace, stun gun, martial arts or BJJ fantasy hold up to this real life crime? do you really think what you teach in your classes prepare someone for this?
these fantasy defenses and hollywood style crimes are not real. ask yourself what does a rape look like in your head and imagination, then ask yourself where did this image come from? unless you do case studies you are probably very wrong in your assumptions.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
We're not looking at it in terms of "Hollywood" rape. We're looking at it from the perspective of being able to fight back. Clearly every scenario doesn't provide that oppurtunity. That doesn't mean that women (and men) shouldn't be prepared if such an oppurtunity presents itself.
Don't limit the word, opportunity, to serial rapists. First time rapists, friends, and co-workers are presented with it too. I'm sure you have lots to offer, but I am just telling you what they teach in school. If they say on the news that certain parts of town are high rape areas, rape will actually go up in that area. They have studied this stuff, they know, and I still say it is a crime of opportunity.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
Hanzou, just to clarify i am not actually disagreeing with you about training or saying anything personal to you. i am speeking in a general sense. when i speek of a hollywood style assault i didnt say you in specific please dont take it personal if i came across that way. what i said was martial artists. instructors for years have used hypothetical senarios to teach self defense.
your comment was...
i posted that specific case because it defies many stereo typical assumption. it was not in a "scary" isolated spot. it was not dark and late at night. the victim was not laying on her back. she did not have any access to defend. no one came to her rescue. there was no "interview" stage or warning of the impending attack. ect..
yes every situation is different. but i have heard MA instuctors saying "your attacker is going to..... when you are in this position.... you can do this..." it drives me nuts whenever i hear things like that. they are making assumptions on how an assault happens and what responses can be used.
1. have you ever been raped?
2. have you ever done case studies on what happens and what actions where taken during a rape?
3. have you ever done first hand interviews with the victims of a rape?
if the answer for these is no then we can reasonably say that you (general sense) have no idea what can be expected or might happen. thus my previous posts question..
your comment was...
my question to everyone is , are you sure? it has been said the number one rule of training is to not assume. we all make assumptions. many martial art instructors teach a womens self defense or a rape defense type of class. as i read posts in this thread i am not so sure about your comment.
i posted that specific case because it defies many stereo typical assumption. it was not in a "scary" isolated spot. it was not dark and late at night. the victim was not laying on her back. she did not have any access to defend. no one came to her rescue. there was no "interview" stage or warning of the impending attack. ect..
yes every situation is different. but i have heard MA instuctors saying "your attacker is going to..... when you are in this position.... you can do this..." it drives me nuts whenever i hear things like that. they are making assumptions on how an assault happens and what responses can be used.
1. have you ever been raped?
2. have you ever done case studies on what happens and what actions where taken during a rape?
3. have you ever done first hand interviews with the victims of a rape?
if the answer for these is no then we can reasonably say that you (general sense) have no idea what can be expected or might happen. thus my previous posts question..
when a martial arts instuctors decides to teach a womens class that person is also taking on the resposibility to give honest accurate information. is it unreasonable to expect that the instructor do their due diligence and actually study the known facts on the topic in which they are going to teach?
absolutely! but how do you prepare if you are not familiar with the senario?
hoshin1600
Senior Master
Touch of death, maybe semantics are getting in the way. when you say "rape is a crime of opportunity" this to me implies that there was no intent untill that opportunity presents itself. that it was incidental. while this does happen, like i pointed out that it even has its own sub catagory in law enforcement, that more often then not the intent was there prior. to say that rape is only based on opportunity is to diminsh the intent and put an undeserved bias of responsibilty on the victim. with that logic " if she did not present the opportunity the rape would never have happened". we know that this is not the case.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
so i am curious about your opinion. why do you think this happens?
Hanzou
Grandmaster
I'm not taking anything personal. I'm just a bit annoyed by the constant moving of the goal posts.
There are thousands of scenarios. It's impossible to train for every single possible scenario that you could encounter. All you can do is hope your training encompasses as many potential scenarios as possible.
It ties in to what someone else said just now, most men don't believe themselves to be bad people, but one in four have a propensity to do it. This number goes even higher in times of war. I recently read that the battle of Berlin was ended with the largest mass rape in world history; and, those were good men. So my point is that we can lay the blame on men, and I don't think we can socialize our way out of it. So, getting back to my point we limit the opportunity in every way possible. Western culture used to just accept this as a present sickness of the human condition, and sought to keep the sexes separate. There were women's colleges and even the children were kept apart, but that was then and this is now.
Sean
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There is another thing about just men in general. When they go up to Alaska to work in the fishing industry, a lot of those first timers just go nuts. They no longer have their friends and family holding them to a real or imaginary standard, and all bets are off! I'm sure they even have a name for it, but I don't happen to know it.
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