How to be Self-taught?

[Flying Crane]

I've stated this already in this thread but obviously you didn't catch it. I do not intend on learning solo. I will seek out having a sparring/wrestling partner. I do not, however, see the need to get instruction from at a dojo. And because you're probably going to come at me with a bunch of crap about how much I need to get feedback from someone who knows martial arts to learn to fight properly, let me say, I DON'T CARE. Learning independently is for the sake of learning how to learn itself. If I wanted to be a black belt I'd go to a dojo. If I really thought I needed to be able to defend myself better I would go to a dojo. All I'm doing in attempting to independently train in the martial arts is improving my skill acquisition expertise. Period.

Then pick a different topic.

Keep in mind: you came here and asked us about this. We did not go chasing you down to tell you this. Since you asked, we have given you enough respect to give you honest answers. But since they are not the answers you were wanting now you get upset and frustrated with us. You need to back up a little bit and respect the information that people here have been willing to share with you, or you will get zero respect here.

Sounds to me like you've already made your own decision, so what more do you want here? You will not convince us that there is any sense to this. Do you want to continue trying?

 

[oftheherd1]

...
Maybe all of you who are so molded by your martial arts schooling should attempt to learn a skill or two independently. For one, you would be able to apply good sound principles of discipline from you martial arts to whatever skill you chose to develop. But furthermore, I think in the long run your study of martial discipline would also gain in the process. Thanks.

Why do you assume any of us have not? Do you know any of us that well, or at all outside of our comments here? Do think maybe you have a little too high an opinion of yourself, and way too low an opinion of us?

 

[Jenna]

Hi Folks,

I've decided I want to take on martial arts as a learning project. I'm not looking to be a tournament level martial artist; and I do not feel that self-defense is a major concern - I live in a very safe, rural, community. So the idea of studying martial arts is purely for educational purposes. Now, I have several dvds from Contemporary Fighting Arts and I have a Body Opponent Bag. With the BoB I've been working on razing, knee strikes, and kicks for about 25 minutes a day; I intend to do some shadow boxing once the snow melts (I live in Vermont). I would like to find a training partner to spar and wrestle with but will tackle that when the time comes. So my question is, how might I continue to develop a solo training method?

I think in fairness you asked a simple question.. how do you continue to develop a solo training method.. In light of your responses I think the best way would be just exactly as you have done up until now.. for the purposes you state you want to learn (messing about with friends in a completely safe non-violent zero crime quiet part of the world) I think you are doing fine, no? What is missing do you think in your practice as it is? what is wrong with it just as you are doing it right now? Jx

 

[marvelous65]

I want you to just consider that everyone in this thread has told you this is a bad idea. Add partners in and it could go from bad to worse if someone gets injured because you don't know what you are doing. There are several instructors and people with far more experience then you saying this. I have, and I am sure many others here have, seen the results of self training... it's usually a disaster that did the person more harm then good.

Now I'm all for self-learning, but take into consideration you are attempting to begin this self-learning experience in a field you know nothing about by ignoring and disagreeing with the advice of every expert you have heard from. That alone should be enough to tell you something about this plan in this field is not a good one.

There is no way a little rough housing with friends is going to result in injury.

I think in fairness you asked a simple question.. how do you continue to develop a solo training method.. In light of your responses I think the best way would be just exactly as you have done up until now.. for the purposes you state you want to learn (messing about with friends in a completely safe non-violent zero crime quiet part of the world) I think you are doing fine, no? What is missing do you think in your practice as it is? what is wrong with it just as you are doing it right now? Jx

Ok Jenna, your question of what is missing in my practice is a good one. There are myriad things missing in my practice; as all of you have said, I would benefit greatly from having an expert guide me in my training. Having expert guidance is a piece that is missing. I posted this thread thinking some of you might recommend various training tactics. But I did not get that. But beyond being a very unschooled martial artist with only an abstract sense of how I want to formulate an understanding of martial arts training I am not sure what is missing from my practice. Which is why I posted the thread in the first place.

I'm viewing this process of teaching myself martial arts as a journey. With each step I take into refining my training, I'll be able to peer a little deeper - unlocking hidden potential that I was unaware of previously. Right now, I'm just delving into practicing on my BoB; that practice in itself has improved remarkably in the past couple months.

I guess to best answer your question the piece that is most missing from my practice is that I do not know what I don't know.

 

[Flying Crane]

There is no way a little rough housing with friends is going to result in injury.


Ok Jenna, your question of what is missing in my practice is a good one. There are myriad things missing in my practice; as all of you have said, I would benefit greatly from having an expert guide me in my training. Having expert guidance is a piece that is missing. I posted this thread thinking some of you might recommend various training tactics. But I did not get that. But beyond being a very unschooled martial artist with only an abstract sense of how I want to formulate an understanding of martial arts training I am not sure what is missing from my practice. Which is why I posted the thread in the first place.

I'm viewing this process of teaching myself martial arts as a journey. With each step I take into refining my training, I'll be able to peer a little deeper - unlocking hidden potential that I was unaware of previously. Right now, I'm just delving into practicing on my BoB; that practice in itself has improved remarkably in the past couple months.

I guess to best answer your question the piece that is most missing from my practice is that I do not know what I don't know.

And you will not discover it without a good teacher.

At best, you will be practicing "martial arts inspired movement as exercise" and that is definitely not the same thing. We are trying to help you understand that.

 

[marvelous65]

Do you guys believe in hardening your fists?

 

[marvelous65]

Do you guys believe in hardening your fists?

 

[Jenna]

There is no way a little rough housing with friends is going to result in injury.


Ok Jenna, your question of what is missing in my practice is a good one. There are myriad things missing in my practice; as all of you have said, I would benefit greatly from having an expert guide me in my training. Having expert guidance is a piece that is missing. I posted this thread thinking some of you might recommend various training tactics. But I did not get that. But beyond being a very unschooled martial artist with only an abstract sense of how I want to formulate an understanding of martial arts training I am not sure what is missing from my practice. Which is why I posted the thread in the first place.

I'm viewing this process of teaching myself martial arts as a journey. With each step I take into refining my training, I'll be able to peer a little deeper - unlocking hidden potential that I was unaware of previously. Right now, I'm just delving into practicing on my BoB; that practice in itself has improved remarkably in the past couple months.

I guess to best answer your question the piece that is most missing from my practice is that I do not know what I don't know.

yes that is very honest.. I am no expert in self-teaching a martial art (and perhaps others here do not have this experience either? I do not know) I wonder if I were in your position, perhaps I should think of starting with questions of outcome.. I mean what do I need this MA for? where do I envisage myself USING or deploying it? What do I WANT from my MA practice (for some it is defence, others fitness, others competition, others more meditative and others I think are for impressing girls lol) anyway those kinds of if-I-could-travel-forward-in-time type questions..

Why do I suggest this approach? because these are slightly less vague and slightly more well-specified and thus answerable questions that you can either ask of others or research for your self.. from here maybe you step closer to knowing what you do not know rather than not knowing even that..

so I am in your position and do not know much about self teaching MA so my thoughts are all fumbling in the dark I fear! what do you think?

as for hardening knuckles.. again that depends on what you intend to do with them! Jx

 

[Flying Crane]

Do you guys believe in hardening your fists?

In what ways?

 

[marvelous65]

yes that is very honest.. I am no expert in self-teaching a martial art (and perhaps others here do not have this experience either? I do not know) I wonder if I were in your position, perhaps I should think of starting with questions of outcome.. I mean what do I need this MA for? where do I envisage myself USING or deploying it? What do I WANT from my MA practice (for some it is defence, others fitness, others competition, others more meditative and others I think are for impressing girls lol) anyway those kinds of if-I-could-travel-forward-in-time type questions..

Why do I suggest this approach? because these are slightly less vague and slightly more well-specified and thus answerable questions that you can either ask of others or research for your self.. from here maybe you step closer to knowing what you do not know rather than not knowing even that..

so I am in your position and do not know much about self teaching MA so my thoughts are all fumbling in the dark I fear! what do you think?

as for hardening knuckles.. again that depends on what you intend to do with them! Jx

I believe I should say that I am exceptionally disciplined. In fact, twice in my life people have told me that I am the most disciplined person they have ever met. One of these times the person whom I'm referring told me this in regard to my kettle bell training, and diet. The other time the person whom I'm referring said this in regard to my writing practice.

Now, I read a couple quotes from the great Miyamoto. In one, he said that a true warrior has a taste for writing equal to his taste for swordsmanship. And two, he said that strategy is the craft of the warrior.

Now, besides writing I'm an avid chess player and have delved into many books on strategy, otherwise. I thought that martial arts would be a natural extension of study for someone of my skill set and general disposition. What I'm looking for out of martial arts is a deeper understanding of strategy; what prompted this excursion of being self-taught is my column on self-education.

As I do not feel there is any real world applicability of fighting techniques in the safe, rural town, where I live, I am simply doing this as an experiment. Thus far, my training has developed in stride with what I would have hoped. Thus far, I'm engaging my body with dynamic physical movements with a knowledge of something I'm very interested in - that is, strategy.

So, if I've offended people, defending my stance that I want to be self-taught martial arts, I apologize. For now, and this may change one day, I will stick by being self-taught anyway.

 

[Flying Crane]

You want to play at martial arts in a vacuum. It's not real, it doesn't work that way. You are playing at movement. You are not practicing martial arts.

You've not offended anyone by desiring to do this. If you've made your decision, then go and do it. You do not need our permission and we cannot stop you.

However, it is obnoxious when you come here asking for our input, and then you get upset and snippy with us when our answer isn't the one you wanted.

So go do what you want. You make your own decision and live with the consequences of that, for better or for worse. I personally do not care one way or the other how you spend your time and energy. But I will not sanction what you are doing.

 

[Jenna]

I believe I should say that I am exceptionally disciplined. In fact, twice in my life people have told me that I am the most disciplined person they have ever met. One of these times the person whom I'm referring told me this in regard to my kettle bell training, and diet. The other time the person whom I'm referring said this in regard to my writing practice.

Now, I read a couple quotes from the great Miyamoto. In one, he said that a true warrior has a taste for writing equal to his taste for swordsmanship. And two, he said that strategy is the craft of the warrior.

Now, besides writing I'm an avid chess player and have delved into many books on strategy, otherwise. I thought that martial arts would be a natural extension of study for someone of my skill set and general disposition. What I'm looking for out of martial arts is a deeper understanding of strategy; what prompted this excursion of being self-taught is my column on self-education.

As I do not feel there is any real world applicability of fighting techniques in the safe, rural town, where I live, I am simply doing this as an experiment. Thus far, my training has developed in stride with what I would have hoped. Thus far, I'm engaging my body with dynamic physical movements with a knowledge of something I'm very interested in - that is, strategy.

So, if I've offended people, defending my stance that I want to be self-taught martial arts, I apologize. For now, and this may change one day, I will stick by being self-taught anyway.

Discipline yes this is requisite in any endeavour I think.. I would admit I had not ever heard of training MA purely to develop strategy especially in the absence of the appication of any fighting or defensive work? still, that is my shortcoming.. I would still ask is this not to take the martial out of martial art? You are looking to do dynamic physical movements.. yet this could be equally applicable to gymnastics for example.. I am wondering why you have chosen a martial art path over many others in the absence of a desire to fight/defend your self? I confess my confusion! apologies Jxx

 

[marvelous65]

Discipline yes this is requisite in any endeavour I think.. I would admit I had not ever heard of training MA purely to develop strategy especially in the absence of the appication of any fighting or defensive work? still, that is my shortcoming.. I would still ask is this not to take the martial out of martial art? You are looking to do dynamic physical movements.. yet this could be equally applicable to gymnastics for example.. I am wondering why you have chosen a martial art path over many others in the absence of a desire to fight/defend your self? I confess my confusion! apologies Jxx

Studying martial arts improves understanding of combat principles. That is why martial arts instead of gymnastics.

 

[Flying Crane]

Studying martial arts improves understanding of combat principles. That is why martial arts instead of gymnastics.

How so?

 

[marvelous65]

How so?

Is this meant to be a rhetorical question where I post a response then you re-post a witty repartee?

 

[Mephisto]

In high school me and my friends would wrestle and spar, I read a few books and pulled of some of the moves from the books while rough housing with my friends. Some of the guys watched WWF style professional wrestling and would use those moves. You can probably learn some tricks training with a friend, and if you're sparring with contact you'll likely learn how to handle getting punched. Of course, it depends on who you train with. I've known guys that have attempted similar situations and the "sparring" was pretty one sided, leading one to believe he was actually learning something. Pounding on your friends is not the same as learning a martial art.

You might have been told you are disciplined twice in your life. I've heard the same from out of shape people who spend their free time watching TV and eating. Who was telling you this? An athlete? A physician?

There is a member of the Dog Brothers "Lonely Dog", the Dog Bros is a Filipino Martial arts group out of California. Lonely Dog is a member from Europe and if I recall correctly he was self taught from Dog Brothers videos. I'm told that upon his first meeting with the Dog Bros group, they were surprised to learn that he was self trained. I'm not sure how they assessed this. However, that doesn't say much about his actual ability, if anything it says he may have been on par with a poorly performing trained person. However, Lonely Dog is the exception to the rule, he's an athletic beast, and I don't know about his previous training. Keep in mind even he eventually sought proper instruction and has continued his training and formed a group that he now instructs. If you want advice on being self taught, look him up, please do share how it goes with us.

Do you guys believe in hardening your fists?

Yes, it can be done. I wouldn't recommend you do it without proper instruction.

Studying martial arts improves understanding of combat principles. That is why martial arts instead of gymnastics.

Only if you know what the hell you're doing. Don't get to caught up in Musashi and Sun Tzu and start thinking you're a strategic genius. Plenty of bad martial artists have read those books too and they still can't fight. Those books are common in the martial arts community. There are plenty of martial arts books worms who have lots of knowledge but still lack ability. Martial arts culture can be interesting, but just remember all the cool kids in the community can fight.

 

[WaterGal]

I'm going to give you a less critical (and it turned out much longer! ) answer than some others here. I think you might be able to develop some basic competency at some martial arts techniques by practicing at home with a partner, if you watch the right videos and reading reputable books and if you work hard and are dedicated about practicing. But I think, even with hard work, your results are going to depend a lot on both the quality of resources available and the kind of thing you're trying to learn, and are still going to be limited if you don't have access to feedback from an instructor.

For an example, you say you have some TKD experience. If you want to further that, Kukkiwon has a ~$150 DVD set showing all the WTF/KKW forms in painstakingly thorough detail, and I think if you have some experience, you may be able to teach yourself the forms adequately by watching the video, following along, and then filming yourself and comparing yourself to the person in the video. (Edit: But if you're just imitating movements, you may miss things that are important but don't seem to be, misinterpret what the movement is supposed to be, etc.) I've also seen some decent tutorial videos on youtube from a user called, let's see, "Learn Taekwondo Online", and I think you could probably learn at least the concept of many strikes from watching these kind of videos. Make sure they're good videos though, not ones with corny titles like "Feral Fight".

But when it comes to sparring, you can't possibly learn that solo, or even with one training partner. You'll get in a rut. You need to spar with a bunch of different people to improve your skill, and especially with people who're more skilled than you and can help/push you to improve.

And then, when it comes to more subtle grappling techniques... I think you're up the creek there. Even in a class setting, those often require one-on-one instruction to really get right. An inch down the arm or turning your foot a certain way can be the difference between a joint lock working great, sort-of, or not at all. And it's easy, without good instruction, to do "sort-of" and think it's "great" - or to (even unconciously) modify the technique in some way that misses the point.

I also am going to second (third, fourth, whatever) others that have posted about the injury risk of teaching yourself because you're not doing things right. You can mess up your knees doing rotary kicks improperly (not pivoting), give yourself a boxer's fracture not punching right, not to mention spraining your wrist or throwing out your back trying to do some Hapkido/Jujutsu/Aikido kind of techniques. So you have to be careful.

If I were you, I'd focus on getting generally fit, since that's always going to help you, and on drilling basic striking and blocking techniques with BOB and a partner. If you want to learn forms to do a TMA, try it like how I mentioned above.

 

[marvelous65]

In high school me and my friends would wrestle and spar, I read a few books and pulled of some of the moves from the books while rough housing with my friends. Some of the guys watched WWF style professional wrestling and would use those moves. You can probably learn some tricks training with a friend, and if you're sparring with contact you'll likely learn how to handle getting punched. Of course, it depends on who you train with. I've known guys that have attempted similar situations and the "sparring" was pretty one sided, leading one to believe he was actually learning something. Pounding on your friends is not the same as learning a martial art.

You might have been told you are disciplined twice in your life. I've heard the same from out of shape people who spend their free time watching TV and eating. Who was telling you this? An athlete? A physician?

There is a member of the Dog Brothers "Lonely Dog", the Dog Bros is a Filipino Martial arts group out of California. Lonely Dog is a member from Europe and if I recall correctly he was self taught from Dog Brothers videos. I'm told that upon his first meeting with the Dog Bros group, they were surprised to learn that he was self trained. I'm not sure how they assessed this. However, that doesn't say much about his actual ability, if anything it says he may have been on par with a poorly performing trained person. However, Lonely Dog is the exception to the rule, he's an athletic beast, and I don't know about his previous training. Keep in mind even he eventually sought proper instruction and has continued his training and formed a group that he now instructs. If you want advice on being self taught, look him up, please do share how it goes with us.


Yes, it can be done. I wouldn't recommend you do it without proper instruction.

Only if you know what the hell you're doing. Don't get to caught up in Musashi and Sun Tzu and start thinking you're a strategic genius. Plenty of bad martial artists have read those books too and they still can't fight. Those books are common in the martial arts community. There are plenty of martial arts books worms who have lots of knowledge but still lack ability. Martial arts culture can be interesting, but just remember all the cool kids in the community can fight.

Hey Mephisto, thanks for the tip on looking up Lonely Dog - I will do that. As for your question regarding my discipline - yes, two people have told me that I was the most disciplined person they had ever met. One was a fellow writer who has won prestigious writing competitions and the other was a mentor.

 

[Flying Crane]

Is this meant to be a rhetorical question where I post a response then you re-post a witty repartee?

No, it's an honest question. I am curious to know what combat principles you believe you will learn by working on a bob and wrestling with a friend in the back yard. What are these principles, and how do feel this exercise will help you understand them.

I am poking holes in your arguments, but quite honestly that is what you need right now. It's not a simple attempt to be witty at your expense.

Give me an argument that isn't fraught with glaring problems, and I won't be able to poke holes in it.

 

[hoshin1600]

Hello Marvelous65.
I hope you have the patience for one more response because mine may be different.
Your interest is in self learning. Everyone has given their opinions but let me give my input on this. Chess is a logical endeavor and is learned in an intellectual process. As westerners we primarily use the left hemisphere of our brains when learning. This is the logical side. Asian cultures however historically have been more intuitive learner's and use the right side. My first suggestion would be for you to do some research on left VS right brain learning.
I think what many people are trying to express to you subconsciously is that martial arts are not learned as an intellectual process. They are learned as an intuitive almost like osmosis. In the fist stages of martial arts it is about memory but then after that it becomes intuitive. I would also suggest looking up on line the learning process used by Asian musicians. It will be similar to martial arts.
One challenge to learning from any other method other than a teacher is that martial arts is about the human body and biomechanics. Even doing something as simple as a punch involves more than just extending your arm. There are 640 skeletal muscles in the body. Some of these muscles have to remain in a state of relaxation while others need to be contracted and yet others need to be held in a state of static flexation. There is no book or video that could possibly entail so many details. Martial arts takes a simple movement and breaks it down to a very fine prescribed manner. It is really about mastery of the human body. The only way to learn this is by feel and by extensive instruction.