How the Japanese view of the black belt

[Hot Lunch]

Facts don't have a side.

But you do.

Based on false assumptions. If the American earns twice as much, but the cost of living is 2.5 times as much, the American has less money.

Which you seem to assume to be the case.

 

[Dirty Dog1]

But you do.

I'm on the side of facts, rather than meaningless numbers.

Which you seem to assume to be the case.

Where did I do that?

 

[Hot Lunch]

I'm on the side of facts, rather than meaningless numbers.

So much on the side of them that your first reaction is to argue with what I said.

Here's some more numbers that I dug up:

Average income tax in the US is 13.3%. In the UK, it's 23.6%

So the differences are even wider (in favor of Americans) when it comes to net income.

Then, we can look at the highest bill everyone pays...

Average rent in 2022 for a two bedroom flat in the US was 1,339 USD or 1,056 GPB

In the UK, it was 1,617 USD or 1,276 GPB.

Average monthly grocery bill in the US for a family of four in 2022 was 668 USD or 527 GBP. In the UK, it's 918 USD or 725 GBP.

I don't think much else matters after this.

So are you still "on the side of facts," or do you keep arguing with me?

Where did I do that?

That arbitrary 2.5 number that you thought was a smoking gun.

 

[Gyakuto103]

I'm in America, so it's a safe bet I'm better equipped than you, as far as guns go.

I absolutely do not doubt that. But it’s a little sad that you seem proud of that fact

 

[Dirty Dog1]

So much on the side of them that your first reaction is to argue with what I said.

Here's some more numbers that I dug up:

Average income tax in the US is 13.3%. In the UK, it's 23.6%

Again, irrelevant, because it does not account for what the government provides for those tax dollars. Since you're trying to compare income, the only numbers that will really matter is a comparison of income and cost of living.

So are you still "on the side of facts," or do you keep arguing with me?

I argue with you BECAUSE I am on the side of facts. You're cherry picking, trying to find numbers that support your conclusion.

That arbitrary 2.5 number that you thought was a smoking gun.

Was, I think it's clear to anyone with a modicum of sense, ARBITRARY, as in made up to serve as an example of why comparing income alone is pointless.

 

[PhotonGuy4]

That was my dojo. I’d have everyone swap belts for a class, black belts swapping with white belts etc. Sometimes we’d just have everyone throw their belt in a pile and you’d just take one. You could take any color other than your own. We did that around every other month. Sometimes two or three nights in a row.

All the instructors would participate as well. As well any guest training with us that night.

Well that does somewhat contradict what you said in post #230 where you said you don't think anyone should make black belt just because they show up for a couple of years and go through the motions without any heart or grit involved. Based on what you described, anybody can be a black belt without even without being there a couple of years and having gone through the motions, and certainly without any heart or grit. They don't even have to be a regular student, they can just be a guest and be a black belt, at least for one class, if they happen to swap with a black belt for that class.

It was done because, to us, belts don’t mean squat.

By that logic why not just hand out belts like candy, regardless of the color? After all, there is no reason you shouldn't do that if belts don't mean squat at your dojo.

Even though we had harsher belt grading than any dojo that I knew of (except one) we didn’t want students to be Belt whores.

Well if you're going to have harsh grading then it makes sense that there are students who are going to want to earn high belts. They might not be belt whores but you can expect that there will be at least some students who are going to have goals of earning high belts when you have harsh grading. Why? Because earning such belts under harsh grading means you're good.

As I’ve mention before, if a student asked “when’s the next belt test?”they would then be automatically excluded from it. They ALL knew that going in, they learned that before signing up, there was a sign on the wall to remind them.

If I were to run a dojo today I’d do it the same way.

Well I do remember you saying that students would be suspended from rank advancement if they asked about it but aside from that I don't know exactly what kind of system your instructor had on how students went up in rank. Systems for rank advancement vary from dojo to dojo and they vary quite a bit.

In the first karate dojo that I started seriously training at tests were run at regular intervals, about every four months. When tests did come up, it was up to the student if they wanted to sign up and test for their next rank but just because you tested certainly didn't mean you would pass and just because you could choose to test when tests came up didn't mean that belts or rank was easy to get. You still had to pass the test of course, and the test could be really hard.

In the Goju Ryu dojo that I train in now, the sensei does some formal testing and he will tell you when he decides to formally test you but most of the testing he does just by observing you in class, so that most of the time when you're being tested you won't know it.

So systems can vary, so aside from the part about being suspended if you ask about promotion I don't know any details or much about how your instructor's system for rank advancement worked.

 

[Dirty Dog1]

I absolutely do not doubt that. But it’s a little sad that you seem proud of that fact

Why wouldn't I be proud of having the freedom to pursue interesting hobbies?

 

[Dirty Dog1]

[A whole lot of nonsense]

Speaking of people totally missing the point...

 

[Hot Lunch]

Again, irrelevant, because it does not account for what the government provides for those tax dollars. Since you're trying to compare income, the only numbers that will really matter is a comparison of income and cost of living.

I argue with you BECAUSE I am on the side of facts. You're cherry picking, trying to find numbers that support your conclusion.

Was, I think it's clear to anyone with a modicum of sense, ARBITRARY, as in made up to serve as an example of why comparing income alone is pointless.

"But... but... this! And that! And you're not considering x, and y...."

You're always gonna try to find something, aren't you? You're pretty dedicated to that. You're not on the side of facts. You're on the side of arguing with me.

 

[Buka19]

Well that does somewhat contradict what you said in post #230 where you said you don't think anyone should make black belt just because they show up for a couple of years and go through the motions without any heart or grit involved. Based on what you described, anybody can be a black belt without even without being there a couple of years and having gone through the motions, and certainly without any heart or grit. They don't even have to be a regular student, they can just be a guest and be a black belt, at least for one class, if they happen to swap with a black belt for that class.

By that logic why not just hand out belts like candy, regardless of the color? After all, there is no reason you shouldn't do that if belts don't mean squat at your dojo.

Well if you're going to have harsh grading then it makes sense that there are students who are going to want to earn high belts. They might not be belt whores but you can expect that there will be at least some students who are going to have goals of earning high belts when you have harsh grading. Why? Because earning such belts under harsh grading means you're good.

Well I do remember you saying that students would be suspended from rank advancement if they asked about it but aside from that I don't know exactly what kind of system your instructor had on how students went up in rank. Systems for rank advancement vary from dojo to dojo and they vary quite a bit.

In the first karate dojo that I started seriously training at tests were run at regular intervals, about every four months. When tests did come up, it was up to the student if they wanted to sign up and test for their next rank but just because you tested certainly didn't mean you would pass and just because you could choose to test when tests came up didn't mean that belts or rank was easy to get. You still had to pass the test of course, and the test could be really hard.

In the Goju Ryu dojo that I train in now, the sensei does some formal testing and he will tell you when he decides to formally test you but most of the testing he does just by observing you in class, so that most of the time when you're being tested you won't know it.

So systems can vary, so aside from the part about being suspended if you ask about promotion I don't know any details or much about how your instructor's system for rank advancement worked.

Classic.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Well if you're going to have harsh grading then it makes sense that there are students who are going to want to earn high belts. They might not be belt whores but you can expect that there will be at least some students who are going to have goals of earning high belts when you have harsh grading. Why? Because earning such belts under harsh grading means you're good.

This part, except for the last sentence (mostly).

To me, the self-contradictory part is the "harsh" testing for belts that allegedly don't mean anything. The "harsh" part of it implies that the test isn't solely on what the students learn, but also (and maybe even mostly) on how bad the students want it.

I've described the harsh testing (and everyday training) at my last dojo that made me pack up and leave to find another one too many times and too recently to repeat it again here. But that being said, I'll give them credit for one thing: there was definitely no self-contradiction at that dojo. Belts meant something there, and they had absolutely zero problem saying it.

 

[Cri70]

It’s unlikely that anyone believes it’s the belt that gives one the ability to be a competent practitioner. It’s merely an indicator to oneself and others that you are performing, against an objective set of measures, to the level of that rank. If you ‘can do‘ Karoddy you are likely to progress up the rungs of the ladder and your belt will darken in the fullness of training. If you ‘can’t do’ Karoddy you may, at best, get to and remain at pink belt with orange longitudinal stripes.

Indications of rank are important in most societies and for some reason, especially Japan. Even in the USA, one of the first questions your likely to be asked when in a social situation is “What job do you do?” This is not-so-subtle way of assessing your socio-economic ‘ranking’ in society and thus the questioner‘s relative position to you. In the U.K. this question is rarely asked, but the way one speaks (grammar, accent, vocabulary) and to an extent, dresses seem to ‘place you in the rankings’. Then it’s which school/University you attended. You can be as poor as a church mouse, but if you went to Charterhouse/Eton/Oxford/Cambridge then you are highly regarded (at least a 5th Dan blackbelt). This is why the British look down on all Americans (except scientists and Natalie Portman).

Of course you are correct that in general belts are supposedly indicators. They just aren't very good ones.

The mindset of a dedicated karateka is one of practice, improvement and testing. The focus is inwards. Indicating to others your degree of competence is as important as indicating the brand of cereals you have in the morning.

Kawaishi introduced the color system when teaching judo in France because he saw that in the West students need some additional motivation, for the cultural reasons you explain so well above. Kano had introduced Dan levels inspired by other Japanese activities (go, swimming).

And it's interesting that for dan levels, the belt stays the same. You can't say a 7th Dan from a 1st from the belt (you can from the wrinkles).

 

[Dirty Dog1]

Of course you are correct that in general belts are supposedly indicators. They just aren't very good ones.

I think they're typically good indicators within the school or system that issued them.

The mindset of a dedicated karateka is one of practice, improvement and testing. The focus is inwards. Indicating to others your degree of competence is as important as indicating the brand of cereals you have in the morning.

In a large school, belt colors might be more significant. Or at formal, highly structured events where precedence might be an issue.

And it's interesting that for dan levels, the belt stays the same. You can't say a 7th Dan from a 1st from the belt (you can from the wrinkles).

Depends on the system. It's not at all uncommon for belts to be embroidered with rank indicators. The ITF and similar systems puts roman numerals on the end of the belt. Many other systems (including our branch of the MDK) put bars on the belt.

I personally do not care for the look of a worn and faded belt. And it's not uncommon for people to artificially age their belts in systems that equate a faded belt with higher rank.

On the other hand, I can walk around our schools in shorts and a t-shirt. Because we're not so huge that people don't know who is who.

For that matter, I'm fond of dressing for the holidays. I often wear a red belt for Valentines, a green for St Patricks' Day, and I have a red dobak for Christmas.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Of course you are correct that in general belts are supposedly indicators. They just aren't very good ones.

They're not indicators. They're grades that students have met the minimum standards to be promoted to. Just like there are 5th graders that can do better math than 6th graders. The 6th graders have met the minimum requirement to be promoted to the 6th grade. The existence of some 5th graders who can do better math than some 6th graders doesn't change this.

Kawaishi introduced the color system when teaching judo in France because he saw that in the West students need some additional motivation, for the cultural reasons you explain so well above. Kano had introduced Dan levels inspired by other Japanese activities (go, swimming).

There are plenty videos all over YouTube of dojos in Japan where students are wearing colored belts. I'm not so sure what the motive is behind depicting Westerners as needy for external validation.

And it's interesting that for dan levels, the belt stays the same. You can't say a 7th Dan from a 1st from the belt (you can from the wrinkles).

In most styles, this is what a 7th Dan wears.

 

[Steve]

Do you have any original thoughts?

That's not very nice.

 

[Hyoho1]

Some young practitioners do ‘get it’ and they often become the better martial arts. It’s just like some young people realise that working hard at school and college pays dividends in later life whilst other children just mess around, have a good time partying at school and have no option but to spend their whole adult lives working long, hours in back-breaking jobs.

News to me. We see all the kids come up as beginners with a certain percentage of naturally of talented fighters. The parents fully aware of what they have bring them to enrol and get scholarships. No partying in Japanese school but Uni is a free for all. My own journey was somewhat different as I changed my employment.

 

[Hyoho1]

They're not indicators. They're grades that students have met the minimum standards to be promoted to. Just like there are 5th graders that can do better math than 6th graders. The 6th graders have met the minimum requirement to be promoted to the 6th grade. The existence of some 5th graders who can do better math than some 6th graders doesn't change this.


There are plenty videos all over YouTube of dojos in Japan where students are wearing colored belts. I'm not so sure what the motive is behind depicting Westerners as needy for external validation.


In most styles, this is what a 7th Dan wears.

View attachment 30571

Here's one of mine.

 

[Gyakuto103]

Depends on the system. It's not at all uncommon for belts to be embroidered with rank indicators. The ITF and similar systems puts roman numerals on the end of the belt. Many other systems (including our branch of the MDK) put bars on the belt.

Roman numerals sounds really cool. I like that idea, but I bet there are many people who can’t read them!

 

[Gyakuto103]

Here's one of mine.

You wear a novelty tie as you indicator of rank?

 

[Hyoho1]

You wear a novelty tie as you indicator of rank?

I have menkyo kaiden among other kodansha ranks and a licence in Kenjutsu. I don't need another rank and not bound by an association. I wear what the hell I like. It's a doubled over Japanese kaku obi.