How Pure Are The Arts?

Daniel Sullivan

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its theft when you dont credit the source.

Kajukenbo for example, the name itself credits the source arts
I am quoting you because I know exactly what you are referring to and because your comments are the impetus for this thread.

If I learn how to perform a rotating punch in Shotokan and how to perform turning kicks from taekwondo, and the various blocks from either/or, and some locks and throws from hapkido, put them together in a coherent way and call it "Dankenpo," I am not stealing, even if I do not say where I learnt the individual techniques from. So while not theft, it is disingenuous on certain level.

Now, if I throw in Taegeuk pumse and Heian kata, then it is stealing. If I claim that I made up the forms or create a bogus history for my art and claim that a bogus founder created the forms, then I am lying and stealing.

Generally, I find that when you say that the TKD pioneers 'stole' from other arts, that you are not correct in this. In the transition from whatever the original kwans called what they were doing (Tang Su Do, Kong Su Do, and Kwon Beop if I remember correctly) to Taekwondo, the pioneers created the Palgwe forms from scratch, then replaced those forms with the Taegeuk Pumse a few years later.

The kicks and punches are just kicks and punches, and I suspect that punches with a rotating fist and high kicking were all in Korea before the establishment of Shotokan and the Japanese occupation. The sparring rules in WTF, like them or not, are unique to taekwondo and cannot be said to have been stolen from karate. Since they created their own forms, those aren't stolen.

As far as the history is concerned, reading it carefully, it is apparent that they are retrofitting the term 'taekwondo' to to include all Korean striking arts so as to tie modern taekwondo to pre-occupation striking arts in Korea.

This is no different than if I were to call all European striking arts, regardless of the time period, kickboxing even though the term did not exist until the 1970's.

Really, Shotokan's biggest contribution to taekwondo that could not have come from techniques that were already known in Korea was the kyu/dan system and rank belts. Which of course were culled from Judo by Funakoshi.

The Japanese occupation did play a large role in the formation of the kwans and the introduction of the arts of judo and kendo to Korea, and aside from a brief reference to it happening prior to the establishment of modern taekwondo, that role is not discussed in the official KKW history. Nor would I expect it to be.

There are many things that I agree with you about but your assessment of taekwondo in this regard is one place where I will have to agree to disagree. I will leave it to you, Glenn, and those interested to hash out how much of taekwondo is actually based on Shotokan over in the TKD section where there are no less than five threads at any given time that touch on the subject.

Now, if you bring up the Haidong Gumdo historical accounts of the Samurang, I will definitely agree that they are fabrications.

Kumdo schools that claim that kendo with Korean terms came out of Korean sword work prior to Kendo's introduction to Korea by Japan are also either lying or passing on a lie that they believe to be true, though the Korean Kumdo Association website makes no such claims.

I am not familiar enough with other KMA histories to even attempt to pick them apart and will refrain from commenting on them.

Regarding the question posed in the OP, and regarding your comment about crediting sources, influences, and such, I think that it is best to be honest about and up front.
 

puunui

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As far as the history is concerned, reading it carefully, it is apparent that they are retrofitting the term 'taekwondo' to to include all Korean striking arts so as to tie modern taekwondo to pre-occupation striking arts in Korea.

It goes a little further than that. When President Rhee saw GM NAM Tae Hi break those 13 roofing tiles, President Rhee exclaimed "That's Taekkyon!" General Choi picked up on it, which lead to the effort to find the chinese han moon characters for taekkyon. Back then, unlike today, han moon or hanja (kanji in japanese) was the predominant way people wrote in korea. Today it is hangul the simplified character set that is uniquely korean, but back then hanja/hanmoon was the way to go. The problem was that there were no hanja for taekkyon, so they settled for the next closest thing, which was taekwondo or taekwon for which there was hanja for. So the name really was supposed to be taekkyon or taekkyondo, not taekwondo. In that sense, taekkyon was ancient. whether it was 2000 or 1300 or 5000 years old is anyone's guess. no one really knows.
 

Twin Fist

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I would say the biggest was the katas, which were stolen pretty much verbatim and renamed.

also, we DO NOT KNOW what techniques were already known in korea since there was NO surviving masters of any native arts left alive after WW2

the only possible exception is the one guy claiming to have been a taekkyon master, but that story cannot be verified

so we really do not know if the koreans already knew how to throw a side kick or not, much less anything else prior to being exposed to japanese shotokan

we cant prove they did, and we cant prove they didnt,
 

puunui

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I would say the biggest was the katas, which were stolen pretty much verbatim and renamed.

They weren't renamed. The Japanese and/or Okinawan names, written in chinese characters, were pronounced in the korean language. For example, Pyongahn is the korean pronounciation for Pinan, Naebojin is Korean for Naihanchi, and so forth.


also, we DO NOT KNOW what techniques were already known in korea since there was NO surviving masters of any native arts left alive after WW2
the only possible exception is the one guy claiming to have been a taekkyon master, but that story cannot be verified

No, there were others. For example, Sinmoo Hapkido GM JI Han Jae learned Taekkyon kicking from a taoist monk which were incorporated into Hapkido. If you don't believe that, what is your explanation of where the kicks in the Korean martial arts came from? Stolen from Shotokan?


so we really do not know if the koreans already knew how to throw a side kick or not, much less anything else prior to being exposed to japanese shotokan

we cant prove they did, and we cant prove they didnt,

No, you can't prove it, that's all. By the way, what do you think about the kajukenbo history discussion Professor Bishop and I are having? Learning anything new? Think anyone lied about the history? If so, who lied and why? You have a lot of theories on korean martial arts lying, I was wondering if you had any theories on kajukenbo lying.
 

Twin Fist

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the chong hon forms, were all renamed.

chunji
dan gun
to san
won hyo
yul guk

those are all japanese forms, renamed after people from korean history, with no nod to the source of those forms, japan

thats theft.

i have no doubt there is a cultural affinity from kicking with koreans. just like american kids wrestle around

that wrestling isnt a style, it is a cultural practice

same with the koreans i imagine. thier cultural affinity to kicking doesnt make that kicking a "style" or a "system" hell i watched ROK marines play volleyball with their feet one of the times i was there in the 80's but those were not martial arts kicks.

and sorry, every time i hear 'they learned it from a monk who's name we dont know" i just assume it is BS. From wiki:

The art copied from Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu (大東流合気柔術) or a closely related jujutsu system taught by Choi Yong-Sool (Hangul: 최용술) who returned to Korea after World War II, having lived in Japan for 30 years. This system was later combined with kicking and striking techniques of indigenous and contemporary arts such as taekkyeon and tang soo do. Its history is obscured by the historical animosity between the Korean and Japanese people following the Second World War.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4]
[/SUP]
daito ryu aikijujitsu with shotokan kicking modified to korean cultural norms

sounds more likely than

"some unknown monk taught me"

what do you think about the kajukenbo history discussion Professor Bishop and I are having? Learning anything new? Think anyone lied about the history? If so, who lied and why? You have a lot of theories on korean martial arts lying, I was wondering if you had any theories on kajukenbo lying.


there are many differences in the versions put out by the two of you.

I think there is a lot of mis-information out there, but i have no way of knowing if it is lies or simply not knowing any better. I will say that i will be passing this information along to my Sigung so that he will know this.
 

puunui

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the chong hon forms, were all renamed.

chunji
dan gun
to san
won hyo
yul guk

those are all japanese forms, renamed after people from korean history, with no nod to the source of those forms, japan

thats theft.

Sorry, but no, they are not japanese forms renamed.


i have no doubt there is a cultural affinity from kicking with koreans. just like american kids wrestle around
that wrestling isnt a style, it is a cultural practice
same with the koreans i imagine. thier cultural affinity to kicking doesnt make that kicking a "style" or a "system" hell i watched ROK marines play volleyball with their feet one of the times i was there in the 80's but those were not martial arts kicks.
and sorry, every time i hear 'they learned it from a monk who's name we dont know" i just assume it is BS.

We know the monk's name -- LEE Dosa.


From wiki:

The art copied from Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu (大東流合気柔術) or a closely related jujutsu system taught by Choi Yong-Sool (Hangul: 최용술) who returned to Korea after World War II, having lived inJapan for 30 years. This system was later combined with kicking and striking techniques of indigenous and contemporary arts such as taekkyeon and tang soo do. Its history is obscured by the historical animosity between the Korean and Japanese people following the Second World War.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4]
[/SUP]
daito ryu aikijujitsu with shotokan kicking modified to korean cultural norms

sounds more likely than

"some unknown monk taught me"

GM Ji never learned shotokan, tangsoodo, kongsoodo, kwonbup or taekwondo.

there are many differences in the versions put out by the two of you.
I think there is a lot of mis-information out there, but i have no way of knowing if it is lies or simply not knowing any better. I will say that i will be passing this information along to my Sigung so that he will know this.


I think it is interesting that you are so sure that the taekwondo pioneers are "lying" but not for kajukenbo, which has obvious inconsistencies.

Professor Bishop said that he agreed with 80% of what I wrote, and personally I think it is higher than that. The differences are easily explainable and not on material points.
 

Twin Fist

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so sorry, but won hyo is outright move for move a shotokan form, and won hyo is not the korean spelling of the japanese name. Same with Dan Gun.

Elder posted the video proving it

you are simply wrong about that

i know the KKW is lying TODAY, thier official website today is still putting out the LIE that TKD is 2000 years old, and we know better.

as to kajukenbo history, i cant say if people are lying, or if they just dont know any better.
 

John Bishop

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It is true that Sijo and his brother were the main ones who carried on with Kajukenbo. All the co-founders acknowledge that. And I don't know how active Professor Ordonez was in Kajukenbo past the 60's. I think when Joe Emperado passed away, Professor Ordonez lost some interest in Kajukenbo.
I would disagree though that "most of the activity and seniors moved to the mainland. Many did not. Sid Ascuncion, Marino Tiwanak, etc. stayed. Kajukenbo has always had a large presence here, and still does.

Marino Tiwanak broke away and started "CHA-3 Kenpo". Sid Asuncion went his own way with "Kenkabo". Some of their students later realigned themselves with Emperado and Kajukenbo, and that's where most of the Kajukenbo in Hawaii comes from.
Godin was in and out with Kajukenbo during his life. Martin Buell took "Godin's Chinese Kempo" and renamed it "Universal Kempo", which he still teaches today. In fact he doesn't even acknowledge Godin as his teacher anymore.

But Professor Ordonez and a lot of documentation in the form of photos, papers, letters, etc. all neatly kept in an album which he shows to the public, and more stuff that is more private. If I were you, I would keep trying to build a relationship with him while maintaining a respectful attitude towards him. He might end up giving you the keys to the kingdom.

Do those records include any of his promotion certificates? The only one I've seen is the 1994 Kajukenbo 10th degree certificate that Emperado, Holck, and Choo gave him.
But like I said, after my first book came out we have communicated, and seem to have a very cordial relationship. I may not agree with the politics of some of the people in his organization, but our relationship is fine.

I would keep trying to build something with him. I think it is worth it, given your interest in kajukenbo history. Go see for yourself and use your own judgment, which seems to be your approach so far. There might be a natural hesitation because you are from the mainland, and there have been a lot of people who some feel took advantage of Sijo and other kenpo pioneers over the years. But maintain your sincerity and things may happen. I sent GM LEE Won Kuk a christmas card for five or ten years before he sent me one back with his business card in it, asking me to contact him.

It has nothing to do with being on the mainland. I have excellent long term relationships with most of the Kajukenbo people and many kenpo and Lua people in Hawaii. I have been to the islands twice, and plan future visits. Before they passed, I had also corresponded often and talked with Tiwanak, Godin, and Thomas Young.
There are still plenty of Kajukenbo people who have been in Kajukenbo for 45-50 years who witnessed Kajukenbo history after the other 4 founders went their separate ways. And a few were there before Joe Emperado died in 58.

I was told Peter Choo came up with the name. Professor Holck just might be passing along that often repeated "tang soo do korean karate" thing that is out there. From my understanding, there wasn't any free flow of travel between Korea and Hawaii among korean citizens, at least not during the period from 1945-50. I will try and look into it if you want.

In the Turtle Bay interview, both Emperado and Choo said Holck came up with the name. Then Holck pointed to Choo and said, "Peter did Korean karate-tang soo do, and boxing. Frank Ordonez did judo. I did jujitsu and judo. Sonny (Emperado) did kenpo. And Chang did Chinese boxing. So I said, why don't we call it Ka-ju-ken-bo."
Choo and Holck were relatives, and very close. So one would think they knew which one of them did what.


I think he might have been just being nice, regarding that kung fu experience. But even if Mr. Chang had kung fu knowledge, the fact remains that kung fu, while big in some branches of kajukenbo now, played a very small, if any, part in the development of original kajukenbo. You admitted that in your earlier post.

We weren't there, so we have to take their word for it. From what I've heard in their interviews, Choo, Holck, and Emperado agreed that Chang had some kung fu training. Ordonez wrote the biography of Chang that I quoted from, for the program for the 1996 KSDI tournament that he, Choo, Holck, and Emperado were being reunited at.
It's obvious that Kajukenbo's strongest influence is kenpo & karate, then jujitsu & judo, and western boxing. Escrima and kung fu play a lesser role in the original method of Kajukenbo. Mainly because Emperado was the main designer, who was mostly helped by Holck and Choo in the beginning. And the fact that Emperado was the one founder who would propagate Kajukenbo from 1950 to the day he died.

He (Choo) told me that the card he had was a 1st degree, but it said guep on it, which is a kyu or color belt rank, and not black belt. I was thinking of giving him a kukkiwon dan certificate or a higher honorary degree, so he could have an official one, to tell you the truth.

I'm sure Peter Choo had accomplished many notable things in his lifetime. And he was revered and respected by Kajukenbo stylists around the world as a 10th degree co-founder of our system. I don't think he needed a honorary tae kwon do black belt.


Is that the context of the 30 years comment? If so, that clarifies things.

Not entirely. Chang, Choo, and Holck did not know Emperado until Ordonez got them together in 1947. Like I said in the timeline, the 5 went their separate ways in 1950. None of them taught Kajukenbo after that, except Emperado. Ordonez returned to help Emperado at his school around 1956 for a short time (2-3 years).
From about 1958 till the late 80's they were no longer together, and Emperado lost touch with Choo, Holck,and Chang. Choo and Holck were relatives, and friends with Ordonez and Chang, so they kept in touch with each other. But they were not active in Kajukenbo anymore.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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It goes a little further than that. When President Rhee saw GM NAM Tae Hi break those 13 roofing tiles, President Rhee exclaimed "That's Taekkyon!" General Choi picked up on it, which lead to the effort to find the chinese han moon characters for taekkyon. Back then, unlike today, han moon or hanja (kanji in japanese) was the predominant way people wrote in korea. Today it is hangul the simplified character set that is uniquely korean, but back then hanja/hanmoon was the way to go. The problem was that there were no hanja for taekkyon, so they settled for the next closest thing, which was taekwondo or taekwon for which there was hanja for. So the name really was supposed to be taekkyon or taekkyondo, not taekwondo. In that sense, taekkyon was ancient. whether it was 2000 or 1300 or 5000 years old is anyone's guess. no one really knows.
I am aware of this, though the way that I had heard it was that President Rhee asked what the art was, to which Choi replied taekkyeon. Either way, I heard the rest pretty much the way that you have related it.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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the chong hon forms, were all renamed.

chunji
dan gun
to san
won hyo
yul guk

those are all japanese forms, renamed after people from korean history, with no nod to the source of those forms, japan

thats theft.

These are Chang Hon tuls. None of these are Kukkiwon pumse. And it is generally the Kukkiwon and the WTF that you are critical of.

It has been many years since I practiced Shotokan, but the taegeuk pumse are definitely not reworked Heian kata. What I recall of the Palgwe pumse (I've only seen them; I never learned them), which were only practiced for a very short time, they were not reworked Heian either.
 

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What I recall of the Palgwe pumse (I've only seen them; I never learned them), which were only practiced for a very short time, they were not reworked Heian either.
The discrete techniques within the 8 Palgwe forms are exactly the same as those found in Heian 1-5, though scrambled and moved around. Palgwe #4 probably resembles a Shotokan form directly the most - it's almost like if Heian Nidan and Heian Sandan got together and had a baby. They seem 'weird' to me in that there's really not a clear progression of difficulty after the first 3 Palgwe. The last 5 all have the same level of technical demand IMO.
 

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Daniel,
the Chong Hon were the copies of japanese foprms

the palqwe came next, and were original korean forms, if badly designed and not really tkd-ish but they were the first complete set of original korean forms

the taegueks came about later, I even remember the first time i saw them, the book was taeguek: the new TKD forms. This was....1984-ish?

but the first forms used for TKD were the Chong Hon, and they were all renamed for figures from korean history.

now, Earl W did produce a quote from Choi from the mid 70's admitting the japanese irigins of the forms and of TKD itself. so the choi ITF was eventually honest.

the KKW is still telling the lie

These are Chang Hon tuls. None of these are Kukkiwon pumse. And it is generally the Kukkiwon and the WTF that you are critical of.

It has been many years since I practiced Shotokan, but the taegeuk pumse are definitely not reworked Heian kata. What I recall of the Palgwe pumse (I've only seen them; I never learned them), which were only practiced for a very short time, they were not reworked Heian either.
 

puunui

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so sorry, but won hyo is outright move for move a shotokan form, and won hyo is not the korean spelling of the japanese name. Same with Dan Gun.

Elder posted the video proving it

you are simply wrong about that

Which shotokan form is won hyo and which shotokan form is dan gun?


i know the KKW is lying TODAY, thier official website today is still putting out the LIE that TKD is 2000 years old, and we know better.

as to kajukenbo history, i cant say if people are lying, or if they just dont know any better.

How convenient. Even Professor Bishop said there was some straight up lies in Kajukenbo history stuff.
 

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Marino Tiwanak broke away and started "CHA-3 Kenpo". Sid Asuncion went his own way with "Kenkabo". Some of their students later realigned themselves with Emperado and Kajukenbo, and that's where most of the Kajukenbo in Hawaii comes from.
Godin was in and out with Kajukenbo during his life. Martin Buell took "Godin's Chinese Kempo" and renamed it "Universal Kempo", which he still teaches today. In fact he doesn't even acknowledge Godin as his teacher anymore.

I still think of them as kajukenbo though, just like Sifu Dacascos is kajukenbo, even though he changed the name to won hop kuen do. Professor Buell changed it for personal reasons having to do with Professor Godin's legal troubles in the early 1980s.


Do those records include any of his promotion certificates? The only one I've seen is the 1994 Kajukenbo 10th degree certificate that Emperado, Holck, and Choo gave him. But like I said, after my first book came out we have communicated, and seem to have a very cordial relationship. I may not agree with the politics of some of the people in his organization, but our relationship is fine.

Ok, good then. Don't worry about it.



It has nothing to do with being on the mainland. I have excellent long term relationships with most of the Kajukenbo people and many kenpo and Lua people in Hawaii. I have been to the islands twice, and plan future visits. Before they passed, I had also corresponded often and talked with Tiwanak, Godin, and Thomas Young.
There are still plenty of Kajukenbo people who have been in Kajukenbo for 45-50 years who witnessed Kajukenbo history after the other 4 founders went their separate ways. And a few were there before Joe Emperado died in 58.

ok then, you don't have anything to worry about. I'm just saying sometimes local people here are wary about people from the mainland and what their intentions are. Given what you have said and implied about Professor Ordonez, perhaps he has a reason for doing what he's doing. But again, don't worry about it.


In the Turtle Bay interview, both Emperado and Choo said Holck came up with the name. Then Holck pointed to Choo and said, "Peter did Korean karate-tang soo do, and boxing. Frank Ordonez did judo. I did jujitsu and judo. Sonny (Emperado) did kenpo. And Chang did Chinese boxing. So I said, why don't we call it Ka-ju-ken-bo." Choo and Holck were relatives, and very close. So one would think they knew which one of them did what.

I think it was Professor Choo's son who told me his father invented the name. But even the quote above is incorrect about who did what. But that's ok. It's not life or death for me.


We weren't there, so we have to take their word for it. From what I've heard in their interviews, Choo, Holck, and Emperado agreed that Chang had some kung fu training. Ordonez wrote the biography of Chang that I quoted from, for the program for the 1996 KSDI tournament that he, Choo, Holck, and Emperado were being reunited at.

Ok, let me ask it this way then: How much of George Chang's kung fu was in the original kajukenbo? Do you know specifically what techniques are included?


I'm sure Peter Choo had accomplished many notable things in his lifetime. And he was revered and respected by Kajukenbo stylists around the world as a 10th degree co-founder of our system. I don't think he needed a honorary tae kwon do black belt.

taekwondo is one word, no spaces. And he may have not "needed" it, but I think it would have been something that he desired. He was carrying around that taekwondo guep card in his wallet for over thirty years. It was falling apart.

Not entirely. Chang, Choo, and Holck did not know Emperado until Ordonez got them together in 1947. Like I said in the timeline, the 5 went their separate ways in 1950. None of them taught Kajukenbo after that, except Emperado. Ordonez returned to help Emperado at his school around 1956 for a short time (2-3 years).From about 1958 till the late 80's they were no longer together, and Emperado lost touch with Choo, Holck,and Chang. Choo and Holck were relatives, and friends with Ordonez and Chang, so they kept in touch with each other. But they were not active in Kajukenbo anymore.

Ok, so when you are talking about the 30 years, you are talking about sijo's separation from the rest of the co-founders, which isn't really correct either, since at least Professor Ordonez was there in the 1950s and maybe Professor Choo too.
 

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The discrete techniques within the 8 Palgwe forms are exactly the same as those found in Heian 1-5, though scrambled and moved around. Palgwe #4 probably resembles a Shotokan form directly the most - it's almost like if Heian Nidan and Heian Sandan got together and had a baby. They seem 'weird' to me in that there's really not a clear progression of difficulty after the first 3 Palgwe. The last 5 all have the same level of technical demand IMO.

The Palgwae poomsae and yudanja poomsae creation process was that each committee members was to create two to four forms and the committee would come back, talk about it, and choose the best ones. The taeguek poomsae on the other hand, were created by the committee jointly, at least the rough outline, and that GM PARK Hae Man and GM LIM Chang Soo finalized them. So that might explain what you are seeing.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Daniel,
the Chong Hon were the copies of japanese foprms

the palqwe came next, and were original korean forms, if badly designed and not really tkd-ish but they were the first complete set of original korean forms

the taegueks came about later, I even remember the first time i saw them, the book was taeguek: the new TKD forms. This was....1984-ish?

but the first forms used for TKD were the Chong Hon, and they were all renamed for figures from korean history.

now, Earl W did produce a quote from Choi from the mid 70's admitting the japanese irigins of the forms and of TKD itself. so the choi ITF was eventually honest.

the KKW is still telling the lie
What lie? I thought you acknowledged that the Palgwe and Taegeuk forms are original forms. Not challenging you, but I'm not following where you're going with it.
 

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Which shotokan form is won hyo and which shotokan form is dan gun?




How convenient. Even Professor Bishop said there was some straight up lies in Kajukenbo history stuff.


won hyo is almost move for move heian nidan.

your theory that "the korean names are just korean versions of the japanese names, no renaming here" is false in the case of form Dan Gun

there is no JAPANESE form named after the legendary founder of korea......

which proves that they took existing japanese forms and gave them culturally important korean names. at this point, it's a given


I am quite sure there are inaccurate things out there about kajukenbo history.

Prof bishop is qualified to say what is what. I am not. I have the time in TKD to have earned my opinions, and i am new student of Kaju. It isnt my place to judge in that arena. So i defere to the Prof.
 

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I still think of them as kajukenbo though, just like Sifu Dacascos is kajukenbo, even though he changed the name to won hop kuen do. Professor Buell changed it for personal reasons having to do with Professor Godin's legal troubles in the early 1980s.

I don't know who you are, and how much you actually know about Kajukenbo, other then you claimed to have been Peter Choo III's friend in the 80's. From what I've read of yours, you seem to have some facts, and possibly filled in some blanks with your own conjecture. Are you a Kajukenbo practitioner? If so, for how long? And who are you? Anyone can come on a forum and claim anything, and throw in a few facts gleaned from the internet. It would be nice to put a name with the claims.

Dacascos did not "change the name to Wun Hop Kuen Do". And it is "Wun" with a U. It is "Kajukenbo Wun Hop Kuen Do". Wun Hop Kuen Do is one of the 4 recognized styles of the Kajukenbo system.
I knew Godin and was aware of his incarcerations. But Buell didn't start leaving Godin's name out of his history until many years after Godin passed.

ok then, you don't have anything to worry about. I'm just saying sometimes local people here are wary about people from the mainland and what their intentions are. Given what you have said and implied about Professor Ordonez, perhaps he has a reason for doing what he's doing. But again, don't worry about it.

Oh, the haole thing. In the 23 years that I have been a martial arts journalist and author, I have never been treated with any suspicions by my friends and acquaintances in Hawaii. In fact my first trip to Hawaii was at the invitation of a Hawaiian Lua group who paid all the expenses. And in the 28 years I've been in Kajukenbo, I've never been treated like anything but a brother by my Hawaiian brothers and sisters.
How well do you know Frank Ordonez? I've never heard him or anyone around him refer to him as "Professor". He's always been either "grandmaster", "Co-founder", but mostly the title he prefers is "Uncle Frank".

I think it was Professor Choo's son who told me his father invented the name. But even the quote above is incorrect about who did what. But that's ok. It's not life or death for me.

Who are you to say Holck was wrong when he made the statement with Choo and Emperado sitting in chairs next to him agreeing?

Ok, let me ask it this way then: How much of George Chang's kung fu was in the original kajukenbo? Do you know specifically what techniques are included?

Well, the original method has 21 punch counters, 15 knife counters, 13 club counters, 15 grab arts, 14 katas, 26 alphabet techniques, and around 14 two and three man counters.
Without going thru every counter or kata in my head right now, there are kung fu techniques/movements in knife counter 1, grab art 8, punch counter 8, Palama Set 9, Palama Set 3, Palama Set 12, Punch Counter 10, Alphabet B, and probably more that don't come to mind right now.

taekwondo is one word, no spaces. And he may have not "needed" it, but I think it would have been something that he desired. He was carrying around that taekwondo guep card in his wallet for over thirty years. It was falling apart.

OK, taekwondo is one word.
I don't know why Peter Choo kept the card so long. Possibly because it was a memento of his time in Korea. I still have a old beat up judo rank card from 1961 that I've kept as a memento. Doesn't mean that I have this great feeling of loss that I never became a judo black belt.
Like I said, I don't know who you are, or your credentials. You really think it would have been your place to promote someone who was probably a accomplished martial artist long before you were born?

Ok, so when you are talking about the 30 years, you are talking about sijo's separation from the rest of the co-founders, which isn't really correct either, since at least Professor Ordonez was there in the 1950s and maybe Professor Choo too.

Do the math. Ordonez by his own admission left Kajukenbo in 1958, went to Johnson Atoll. They got together again in the 1990's. Did Choo tell you he was active in Kajukenbo in the 50's? From what I've been told, he was in Asia from 1950 to 1956. In Europe after that. Did a short stint at Fort Dix, New Jersey. And retired from the Army in 1965.

I can see that we're probably going to have to agree to disagree. But I'm pretty confident in the file cabinet full of notes, letters, documents, and video tapes verifying the information I've put out. And like I said, I've been active in Kajukenbo for 28 years. I've personally known or know many of the people involved in making Kajukenbo history.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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"TKD is 2000 years old"


THAT lie

sorry for the confusion Daniel
Given that they are tying modern taekwondo to to subak and taekkyeon and whatever hand to hand was in the Muyedobotongji and not saying that modern taekwondo is actually 2000 years old, I don't really consider it a lie. My feelings on the 2000 year old history thing I expressed in my previous post:

As far as the history is concerned, reading it carefully, it is apparent that they are retrofitting the term 'taekwondo' to to include all Korean striking arts so as to tie modern taekwondo to pre-occupation striking arts in Korea.

This is no different than if I were to call all European striking arts, regardless of the time period, kickboxing even though the term did not exist until the 1970's.

Really, Shotokan's biggest contribution to taekwondo that could not have come from techniques that were already known in Korea was the kyu/dan system and rank belts. Which of course were culled from Judo by Funakoshi.

The Japanese occupation did play a large role in the formation of the kwans and the introduction of the arts of judo and kendo to Korea, and aside from a brief reference to it happening prior to the establishment of modern taekwondo, that role is not discussed in the official KKW history. Nor would I expect it to be.
 

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