How many of you train against firearms?

[Doc]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
? This should be an interesting thread, with the rising numbers.

Anyone have a CCW?
Anyone wear a concealed spectra or kevlar vest?
Any of you train in disarming?
Any of you practice shooting?

I know it's pretty much futile to try to disarm when the guy has a gun, but still.

E) All of the above

 

[vin2k0]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
O/T :
You have studied Karate for 9 years and yet you posted a question asking what the most effective MA is?????

That's correct... see that post for my reply to this.

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Technopunk
But in defense of myself I would just like to say that I have had the unfortunate displeasure to look down the barrel of a handgun durring a confrontation.

And you managed to survive, I guess disarming is a important part of training!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have never had to look down the barrel of a gun, but I can say that The Florida Department of Law Enforcement does require this training in all law enforcement and corrections academies so it must have saved someones life otherwise its a big waste of time and money.

 

[MartialArtist]

I have a level III spectra vest and a spectra plate which makes it able to stop the common rifle calibers like .223 (5.56mm) and 7.62mm NATO bullets. Total, the vest is fairly light, at about 20 pounds or so but it restricts movement.

However, I don't wear one concealed. Anyone can spot on unless it was wintertime, it gets very hot and uncomfortable, and it's not worth it. It might save my life... If the guy is packing a cold 9mm or a .22 pistol or something.

 

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
And you managed to survive, I guess disarming is a important part of training!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ha, I'm going to agree with this statement, I think it's important HOWEVER...

The situation was a domestic dispute turned violent and the gun was pulled on my Sister. I stepped in to try and calm things down and the gun was turned on me... There was no "disarm" technique, I just jumped in and pinned the gun arm to down and held onto the gun untill the cops showed up... while desparatly fighting off the other arm with my free arm... No technique, no rational thought just "F#$!, where are those cops!" until they showed up...

 

[Disco]

With the proliferation of hand guns in the U.S. it would behoove all to train in disarming techniques. Contrary to some opinions, you can disarm a gun thug (yes I have personally acomplished this unsuperhuman feat). The caveat is that you must be within arms length of the weapon, which translates to approx 3 feet from the end of the barrel. There is nothing fancy or super special that has to be done in order to accomplish this. Hapkido, Ju Jitsu and the early Aikido practicioners have trained for this encounter. No doubt, many other styles also have some training in this area.

Now aside from the above caveat, you have to realize that you must be sure of yourself and your training, cause you'll only get one shot (no pun intended) at it.

The last time I reviewed the Justice Departments crime stats was about 5 years ago. They stated that you would have a 50 / 50 chance of survival if you were involved with a criminal with a weapon (the odds may even be lower now). That's not doing anything, just complying with the criminal. To me a 50% chance of survival is not good odds. Any training surely must increase the odds in your favor. I'm sure we've all heard and read the stories of people being killed for no reason during a holdup. One of the motto's hanging on our dojo wall say's " Train not to become a statistic"........... :asian:

 

[vincefuess]

And shoot them first. I DO have a concealed carry permit and I do carry. Self defense is just that.

 

[muayThaiPerson]

I dont but I want to.

I'd say disarming techniques work good. My friend in college demonstrated a technique for me. But the guidelines are to do it when they are not looking, no one is around, and you are nearly positive that you can do it. Nice techniques. But Practice is need, lots of it. Hes been confronted at gun point and choked, so the usefulness depends on the individual

 

[Arthur]

I don't currently have a ccw due to living in Boston, Mass (the laws and fees are extreme here). But we practice plenty of gun stuff in class. Disarms of handguns and long guns, displacements, draws, retention, etc.

For those that are intereted we also practice in and against vests, helmets and other Law enforcement and military gear.

We have a lot of military people in calss and are of course a military based art, so it sort of figures.

In general I think its good for people to get use to being around, holding and using knives and guns, even if just for the mental benefits.

Arthur

 

[progressivetactics]

statistically,
14% people who are involved in a gun fight against an assult rifle, will die.
18% handgun will die
72% knife will die.
These are statistics from the DEA in May, 2000.

You can safely disarm an assailant with a weapon. Any weapon. Most people over respect a firearm, and under respect a knife.

We do disarms from front, side, & back. We have worked with Police issued hand guns, wooden guns, wooden knives.

Police teach you need 21' between themselves and an assailant to safely, effectively discharge their weapon. Their 'hit' percentage is only 24% within that range.

Knowing all the stats, getting prepared for such an event and practice practice practice, still doesn't matter if you don't believe you can do it, or if you hesitate.

I too have had guns and knives pulled on me. Remember the best you can hopefor is even kill. The lesson of the samurai. If you can't get out of the situation with talk, Be prepared to die for your attempt at living!

bb

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Disco
With the proliferation of hand guns in the U.S. it would behoove all to train in disarming techniques. Contrary to some opinions, you can disarm a gun thug (yes I have personally acomplished this unsuperhuman feat). The caveat is that you must be within arms length of the weapon, which translates to approx 3 feet from the end of the barrel. There is nothing fancy or super special that has to be done in order to accomplish this. Hapkido, Ju Jitsu and the early Aikido practicioners have trained for this encounter. No doubt, many other styles also have some training in this area.

Now aside from the above caveat, you have to realize that you must be sure of yourself and your training, cause you'll only get one shot (no pun intended) at it.

The last time I reviewed the Justice Departments crime stats was about 5 years ago. They stated that you would have a 50 / 50 chance of survival if you were involved with a criminal with a weapon (the odds may even be lower now). That's not doing anything, just complying with the criminal. To me a 50% chance of survival is not good odds. Any training surely must increase the odds in your favor. I'm sure we've all heard and read the stories of people being killed for no reason during a holdup. One of the motto's hanging on our dojo wall say's " Train not to become a statistic"........... :asian:

The common thug is different from an experienced criminal. Many are almost marksmen. Or an IPDA and bullseye competitor.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by progressivetactics
statistically,
14% people who are involved in a gun fight against an assult rifle, will die.
18% handgun will die
72% knife will die.
These are statistics from the DEA in May, 2000.

You can safely disarm an assailant with a weapon. Any weapon. Most people over respect a firearm, and under respect a knife.

We do disarms from front, side, & back. We have worked with Police issued hand guns, wooden guns, wooden knives.

Police teach you need 21' between themselves and an assailant to safely, effectively discharge their weapon. Their 'hit' percentage is only 24% within that range.

Knowing all the stats, getting prepared for such an event and practice practice practice, still doesn't matter if you don't believe you can do it, or if you hesitate.

I too have had guns and knives pulled on me. Remember the best you can hopefor is even kill. The lesson of the samurai. If you can't get out of the situation with talk, Be prepared to die for your attempt at living!

bb

I think those numbers are a little off, in that they don't show the entire truth behind it.

Police teach you to be 21' apart? Most gun shots occur at 7'

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/what_happens_gunfight/index.html

To safely disengage my weapon? I can point shoot at 30 yards and still hit the paper, and a lot of other people can too. I'm sure many of you remember the olden days when playing Duck Hunt with your kids, and do weird behind the back shots and under the legs.

21' is more of a gurantee than a set number. And police qualifications are not very strict.

However, don't give people any false ideas on defending against a gun. From even 5 feet back, there is nothing you can really do against a criminal who knows what he's doing, not those type of criminals that sweat from their palms.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Kind of reminds me of that statistics that claims that over 90% of fights end up on the ground. Caveat: Don't hang your hat on it.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
I think those numbers are a little off, in that they don't show the entire truth behind it.

Police teach you to be 21' apart? Most gun shots occur at 7'

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/what_happens_gunfight/index.html

To safely disengage my weapon? I can point shoot at 30 yards and still hit the paper, and a lot of other people can too. I'm sure many of you remember the olden days when playing Duck Hunt with your kids, and do weird behind the back shots and under the legs.

21' is more of a gurantee than a set number. And police qualifications are not very strict.

However, don't give people any false ideas on defending against a gun. From even 5 feet back, there is nothing you can really do against a criminal who knows what he's doing, not those type of criminals that sweat from their palms.

EXACTLY!!

 

[yilisifu]

In my years of law enforcement experience, I have never once met a criminal who regularly practiced with any kind of firearm. To say that "many are almost marksmen" or IPDA competitors and such is, I feel, grossly incorrect. My experience has been that criminals who carry firearms possess very little experience and absolutely no real training with them.

To those who insist that there is nothing we can do against an assailant armed with a handgun, I would ask "Would we be expected to get on our knees and beg?"

I would also say (once again) that I am living proof that practical handgun defenses work.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Not an expert


Just a comment:

I think we have it on the right information here. 21' is a reference. IF you meet someone intent on shooting you and has their weapon out or not they will do what they can.

Yet, the officer which is trained to keep is weapon away from the opponent and not to pull it unless it is required, etc. The police need to realize that someone with intent can enter their safety zone with in the 21' before they can clear and get a clean and safe shot. IF you are a bad guy and care less for what happens to thers around you then the situation is different.

Have a nice day everyone.
:asian:

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by yilisifu
In my years of law enforcement experience, I have never once met a criminal who regularly practiced with any kind of firearm. To say that "many are almost marksmen" or IPDA competitors and such is, I feel, grossly incorrect. My experience has been that criminals who carry firearms possess very little experience and absolutely no real training with them.

To those who insist that there is nothing we can do against an assailant armed with a handgun, I would ask "Would we be expected to get on our knees and beg?"

I would also say (once again) that I am living proof that practical handgun defenses work.

I'm not saying all criminals are marksmen. There are gang members who use full-auto Uzi's and miss.

But, better prepared than sorry. Of the last five murders in my area, all were precision attacks.

 

[Disco]

Many have responded with using police tactics and having the criminals on a professional level or gang members using automatic weapons.

We should be talking about the common everyday street hood or the neighbor that's in a domestic dispute (examples were given in this thread). NO we can't train against armed people 21 feet away. There is no magic pill against uzi's or M16's. But as stated before. If you can extend your arm and touch the weapon, YOU CAN disarm a person (also several have said to accomplished this). Almost every thread goes off on a tangent and people start bringing in unrelated and irrelevent facts. There's alot we can learn and share with each other, if we can just focus on what's relevent.

:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

Very well said. Thank you!

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Disco
Many have responded with using police tactics and having the criminals on a professional level or gang members using automatic weapons.

We should be talking about the common everyday street hood or the neighbor that's in a domestic dispute (examples were given in this thread). NO we can't train against armed people 21 feet away. There is no magic pill against uzi's or M16's. But as stated before. If you can extend your arm and touch the weapon, YOU CAN disarm a person (also several have said to accomplished this). Almost every thread goes off on a tangent and people start bringing in unrelated and irrelevent facts. There's alot we can learn and share with each other, if we can just focus on what's relevent.

:asian:

I like that outlook and agree we must stay on topic in order to answer the original question.

Most thugs/criminals are not expert marksman but it probabley wouldnt hurt to train for all scenarios.

I do beleive that you can disarm someone and train in that frequently.






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