Firearms and martial arts

[Kizaru]

I wanted to start a thread to see how people incorporate firearms into their training. If not, why not? If so, how?

For example, do you practice rifle/pistol disarms?
Do you practice shooting?
Do you practice drawing the weapon from a concealed location while executing a "kata"?
Do you practice searching your opponent for a concealed weapon when executing a "kata"?
Do you practice "stopping the draw"?
Do you practice ukemi (rolling, leaping, falling) with rifle/pistol?
Do you have firearms safety and awareness classes at your school/group?
Do you work on anything I've failed to mention?

Gassho.:asian:

 

[Phil Elmore]

Mastery of firearms is a martial art. In fact, in modern society, it is an essential component of learning self-defense.

LinK: Guns, "Gun Control," and "Martial" Artists

 

[MA-Caver]

I wanted to start a thread to see how people incorporate firearms into their training. If not, why not? If so, how?

For example, do you practice rifle/pistol disarms?
Do you practice shooting?
Do you practice drawing the weapon from a concealed location while executing a "kata"?
Do you practice searching your opponent for a concealed weapon when executing a "kata"?
Do you practice "stopping the draw"?
Do you practice ukemi (rolling, leaping, falling) with rifle/pistol?
Do you have firearms safety and awareness classes at your school/group?
Do you work on anything I've failed to mention?

Gassho.:asian:

If you use firearms at all, then all of the above "Do you's..." definitely (or at least should) apply...especially to MA-ists.
I definitely agree with Phil on this one...

Mastery of firearms is a martial art. In fact, in modern society, it is an essential component of learning self-defense.

We have a much higher probablity now-a-days of meeting an assailant who is armed with a gun than anything else. Knives are a close second (if not the #1). Having firearm awareness and dis-arming training would be considered (one of) an essential part of the whole of our MA training by whatever art we choose.
Knowing how to (and be able to be willing to) use them is even better all around for us. In fact I'd recommend it for any serious SD classes.

:asian:

 

[althaur]

For example, do you practice rifle/pistol disarms?
Do you practice shooting?
Do you practice drawing the weapon from a concealed location while executing a "kata"?
Do you practice searching your opponent for a concealed weapon when executing a "kata"?
Do you practice "stopping the draw"?
Do you practice ukemi (rolling, leaping, falling) with rifle/pistol?
Do you have firearms safety and awareness classes at your school/group?
Do you work on anything I've failed to mention?

Gassho.:asian:

Dale does some awesome work with most of these in his dojo. I have been to a number of his handgun/long gun retention and take-away seminars. They are quite amazing. He also shows how the mechanics of drawing a sidearm are not much different than drawing other weapons(use the hips, not just the arms). This leads into how to draw the weapon in a way that the opponent or observers can't see or feel the draw.

The stuff he has shown me is really practical and allows me to pass it on to my soldiers. Most of them have the same "WTF" look in their eyes that I did the first time I saw/felt this stuff.

 

[AaronLucia]

Unfortunately, in both my class we really haven't done too much firearm training, although i'm really looking forward to it.

 

[Cryozombie]

Currently, at our dojo we work on Stopping the draw and disarm/retention techniques.

I have heard that a full firearms course is being worked on as well, but I have not seen any of it yet.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I believe my instructor's father was shot to death years ago (while attempting to stop a car jacking, I might add). He doesn't seem to put any special emphasis on using or defending against guns. Knives are a different matter, though.

 

[bignick]

just last night we worked on preventing someone from drawing...and how to still draw if someone was trying to either take the firearm or prevent it from being drawn...my judo/jujutsu instructor is a sheriff's deputy and former marine...so we cover quite a bit of what you've discussed...the only two i've never seen practiced are the drawing from a concealed location and the ukemi with a firearm

 

[sojobow]

Currently, at our dojo we work on Stopping the draw and disarm/retention techniques.

I have heard that a full firearms course is being worked on as well, but I have not seen any of it yet.

Some schools will not teach these techniques until the student has, at least, exhibited the proficiency of a mid-belt level. Example, if the student hasn't reached the 4th belt level out of six or seven belt-levels, the student isn't really good enough in basics to be taught techniques that, if misapplied in the least, will cause your own death.

One good thing though, we can all cross-train in a public firearms class if we are'ren in a hurry to learn

 

[Don Roley]

I remember a few years after I had started martial arts in another style, that ninjutsu started taking off and being noticed. I was attracted to it for the description of not being centered on sports competition, and it's concentration on smooth, natural techniques. I was also interested in WWII combatives like those taught by Rex Applegate for primarily the same reason. In addition, Applegate had one of the best, combat proven uses of the pistol around ingrained into the system.

So I joined what was then known as the Shadows of Iga and got their newletter "Ninja Realm". Imagine my surprise when the first mention of actually how to use a pistol were based on Practical Pistol Competition (PPC) and had very little to do with what I saw Applegate doing. Other articles and such followed, all centered around what we should do in combat based on what worked best in competitive sports.

I nearly stopped interest in Bujinkan altogether over it. PPC was a sport that was by that time almost totally removed from real combat. The stances that it used were stiff and against the principles that I thought ninpo should have. They worked great against targets, but in a real fight......

So I was very, very glad when Hatsumi came out with his book on Knife and Pistol Fighting. This was what I thought ninpo should be. The techniques are very close to what Applegate did. It was not a case of, "if we don't know how to do XXX let us borrow it from another art."

I was wondering if there was still a lot of that type of thing going on. I personally find that the stuff in the tapes by "Jim Grover" closer to the philosophy and movements of Hatsumi than anything that wins trophies. Massad Ayoob also is pretty darn compatable with what we do as well.

What other kind of sources are there on Hatsumi using a pistol or rifle? I am talking about things like tai kai tapes, etc.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I hear the demonstration of firearms use by Brin Morgan and Lubos Pokorny at the Taikai in Japan this spring was something in a league of its own...:enfo::cheers:

 

[Don Roley]

I hear the demonstration of firearms use by Brin Morgan and Lubos Pokorny at the Taikai in Japan this spring was something in a league of its own...

Well, I have seen the DVD and I do not recall anything from them that stands out. Mind you, I was mainly looking at Hatsumi and I do not think they would be concerned if I say that no one else on the DVD stood out or compared with him.

But in the latest issue of Hiden magazine Pokorny gave an interview and stated that when teaching firearms the most important thing is to keep and convey the feeling of what Hatsumi was doing. That made my opinion of him go up several notches. There are far too many people who try to take something from other arts and make the Bujinkan fit it rather than the other way around.

 

[Shogun]

At my main school (which I barely get to go to), we do. The instructor is a law student so we do a lot of gun. Plus, I am a Sheriff explorer so I get a good dose of Gunplay from that.

 

[Don Roley]

I think that most Bujinkan members would enjoy reading the book "Practical Shooting- Beyond Fundementals" by Brian Enos. Much of the technical section is geared toward competition shooting and not very applicable to what we do. But the training mindset, philosophy, etc are just great eye opening chapters.

If you have read and liked "The Unfettered Mind" by Takuan and use a gun, then you need to get this book.

 

[Drac]

We practice weapon disarms from all angles and weapon retention...All cops, military personnel and armed security should pratice these especially the weapon retention..

 

[kenanderson]

The instructor I train with also goes over all sorts of firearms tactics and retention strategies. He's recently been teaching these tactics in the context of multiple attackers (unarmed), then gradually uping the stacks and having them armed with different types of weapons, including firearms. The most important thing I've taken from this has been the be as aware as possible, even under the most dire of circumstances (like having 3 people come at you with knives, clubs, and a firearm). Last year my instructor was shot at somewhere in Dallas, and the only thing, he says, that prevented him from taking a hit was his awareness.

This is great training, and relates very well to my job as a highway patrolman. These ideas that he teaches are usually not even thought about in our regular law enforcement training. In fact only the bare mininum of standards is required and taught.

- Ken Anderson

 

[Dale Seago]

So I joined what was then known as the Shadows of Iga and got their newletter "Ninja Realm". Imagine my surprise when the first mention of actually how to use a pistol were based on Practical Pistol Competition (PPC) and had very little to do with what I saw Applegate doing. Other articles and such followed, all centered around what we should do in combat based on what worked best in competitive sports.

I nearly stopped interest in Bujinkan altogether over it. PPC was a sport that was by that time almost totally removed from real combat. The stances that it used were stiff and against the principles that I thought ninpo should have. They worked great against targets, but in a real fight......

So I was very, very glad when Hatsumi came out with his book on Knife and Pistol Fighting. This was what I thought ninpo should be. The techniques are very close to what Applegate did. It was not a case of, "if we don't know how to do XXX let us borrow it from another art."

That reminds me. . .

We currently have a Japanese shihan a couple of hours away in Monterey doing research at the Naval Postgraduate School, and he's come up to train with us a couple of times. We found out that he's interested in firearms and learning to shoot (not much opportunity for that in Japan), so a week or so before Daikomyosai I did a half-day "mini-seminar" on handgun disarming & retention (with almost everyone using real firearms, by the way), followed by spending the rest of the day at a nearby pistol range where one of our black belts who's a police officer was his personal coach.

I wasn't able to do the range session because I had to go on to a security assignment in Berkeley for the rest of the day; but everyone told me later that he was effusive in his enthusiasm about the seminar. One thing he'd said was that in Japan he's often seen people with military and law enforcement backgrounds do stuff with guns, but that what he's seen has always looked "mechanical" (his word). . ."but what Dale-sensei does is all taijutsu!!"

I've heard Hatsumi sensei say that a true martial art doesn't have to fundamentally change just because technology changes: It simply incorporates the new into the existing knowledge base in a way that will allow practitioners to make the most effective use of it. That's the approach I take.

The shihan also did NOT want to leave the range. :uhyeah: And much to everyone's surprise, even though he's right handed he turns out to be a "natural lefty" with a pistol -- he suspects it's due to spending so much time in hidari ichimonji no kamae.

 

[Don Roley]

Last year my instructor was shot at somewhere in Dallas, and the only thing, he says, that prevented him from taking a hit was his awareness.

Since you say you are a member of Jigoku Dojo, that means your instructor is Luke Molitor.

So what did "Hotpants" Molitor do to get in that situation? One of the selling points of his school (aside from his experience living in Japan, his high rank in Bujinkan, the trust Hatsumi has put in him on various occasions, etc) is the fact that he has faced certain events that could have ended up with him in the hospital or worse, but instead he got home safe.

Some details about how Hotpants avoided getting shot with his awareness skills might be a usefull lesson for all of us.

 

[Don Roley]

Based on a thread over at a forum run by Sharp Phil I have been thinking about air soft as part of training.

For me, emptying a magazine through my air soft before I go to work is a common occasion. Even when I lived in the States, I was not willing to use the techniques shown in Hatsumi's book on pistol fighting with anything other than air soft. I worked my way through college teaching people to shoot and know that firing ranges get very, very nervous if the pistol is pointing at the floor and not downrange at all times.

And of course, when dealing with various disarms, counters, etc, the ability to hit someone safely is a valuable feedback tool.

Does anyone else use them? If you are coming to Japan, I reccomend you get some. Heck, get some stuff for me from America and I will exchange them for air softs of your choice from here.

 

[r.severe]

From Dallas Texas the Dallas Ninjutsu Academy offers 12 seminars a year on woodland tactical training and survival classes. These are 3 to 6 hours and held in the North Texas area.
This season we have completed the first two of six with four more to go before the end of April.
These have always been very popular with a wide range of people coming and learning the skills offered, military, law enforcement, firemen, laymen, etc.
At times we have students from New York, Utah, etc. coming to these.
The major strong point is there is NO cost to members of the Dallas Ninjutsu Academy.
In respects to those 12 woodland tactical classes a year we also have 12 more CQC in-house firearms tactical training classes. A total of 24 firearms classes a year just focused on firearms and the use of them here at the Dallas Ninjutsu Academy.
This of course doesn’t fall into the weekly pistol shooting and monthly rifle shooting training members do outside the Academy.
I personally do not see how anyone could train in the arts of Ninjutsu without firearms part of there on-going self-perfection. But again.. this is Texas.
We have some of the most experienced instructors coming in to help with some of the classes. SEALS, Rangers, and other specialist. They are always great classes.
To answer a few of the questions you asked on this post,

1, For example, do you practice rifle/pistol disarms? Yes in our normal basic classes monthly.
2, Do you practice shooting? Yes, in classes and outside classes with pistol and rifle. Little with shotgun.
3, Do you practice drawing the weapon from a concealed location while executing a "kata"? Yes, but we do not look at this as a ‘kata’ type of training because we draw from many different positions, in auto, coming out of auto, ground, standing, in water, coming through doorway, on ladder, etc.
4, Do you practice searching your opponent for a concealed weapon when executing a "kata"? Yes.
5, Do you practice "stopping the draw"? Yes.
6, Do you practice ukemi (rolling, leaping, falling) with rifle/pistol? Yes in all classes.
7, Do you have firearms safety and awareness classes at your school/group? Yes in all classes.
8, Do you work on anything I've failed to mention? Yes.
The major point of our outline is to make each and every student skilled with all types of pistols, shotguns and rifles. This means a lot of mixing and drilling the different tools for survival. Also a major point of all students is to understand and know the cleaning, breakdown, maintenance, carry systems, cache, drawing, effects of the bullet and shot of the tool against targets, distance and effects of bullets an shot, hiding tools on body, etc.

ralph severe, kamiyama