Effectiveness of Krav Maga

lklawson

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
4,443
Reaction score
1,170
Location
Huber Heights, OH
Most of the Krav I've seen has been bad, taught by unqualified goobers. About a decade ago (at a guess) Krav was all the rage and there were actually martial arts instructors going to a weekend seminar to get certified in Krav. Predictably, they don't teach "good" Krav. If you're lucky, they teach their base martial art and just call it Krav. If you're unlucky, the instructor has no useful martial art experience to start with and just has a weekend seminar of Krav (which may or may not have been good to start with). I hate to say it, but check the instructor's "lineage" (for lack of a better word) and check around on Krav related forums for the reputation of that instructor. Don't bother talking to his students to find out if he's any good.

Most Judo these days focuses heavily on competition Judo. That isn't bad, by a long shot, but the type of training does differ. You may not get as much LEO oriented training but you'll definitely get a lot more knuckleheads wanting to treat every randori as if it were National match Shiai and willing to muscle through and injure folks. You definitely should visit the dojo 3 or 4 times to see what the usual training is like. If they have a few students on the D.L. with blown knees, you might want to look for a different Judo club. ;)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
4,443
Reaction score
1,170
Location
Huber Heights, OH
As to LE... That's a complicated question. Judo won't hurt you in that regard at all, and will give you some valuable skills for controlling subjects and falling.
Heck, just learning to fall safely should be a mandatory skill. I've lost track of the number of friends and acquaintances who've been injured in a fall. Everyone who's been doing Judo for any length of time has a story that starts with "so I was doing [insert activity] and fell slipped" and ends with "but I knew how to fall safely so I didn't bash my head on the concrete or break my wrist." Even my 14 YO son keep from getting his nose busted by being able to front-fall.

You'll get thrown, bent, spindled and mutilated, and way too many recruits today have never done anything like that. Hell, I think some of them have never heard a harsh word directed at them.
Can I "quote for truth"???

Just knowing that you can take a bit of punishment and dish it out is useful. Knowing how much you can take is twice as useful. Knowing how to mitigate it in the first place and then reflect it back is worth its weight in gold!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
4,443
Reaction score
1,170
Location
Huber Heights, OH
Also! I've heard great things about combining your training with multiple systems. Judo and Krav Maga, in particular. Good luck!
Judo tends to get paired with a lot of stuff. Judo+Boxing. Judo+Krav. Judo+FMA. Judo+Muay Thai. etc. Judo makes a good base close grappling + standing throwing/tripping art that mixes well with almost anything. Learning the first 16-24 Judo throws, 5-10 arm bars, and 3-8 chokes is very achievable for most folks and creates a really solid base to build on.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
4,443
Reaction score
1,170
Location
Huber Heights, OH
Krav Maga wasn't designed exclusively for the military. Imi Lichtenfeld put Krav Maga together based on his own experience and training to be a very reliable means of self defense, with military and civilian application. Since then, others have added or adapted it. For example, Krav Maga Worldwide offers it's Force Protection program, which is a packaging of Krav Maga for Law Enforcement. You can get certified to teach THAT SPECIFIC CURRICULUM in a relatively short period; there are 5 levels, and they can generally teach each level in 1 week, and overlap some of them a little, so figure 4 weeks or so. That's an intense 40 hour week of training each time. Like figure 2 shirts a day from sweat, and damn little down time intense. It's not a certification to teach Krav Maga; it's certification to teach a specific Krav Maga based curriculum.
I have serious reservations that most people could functionalize that much information that quickly. Human psychology just really isn't set up to work that way.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
4,443
Reaction score
1,170
Location
Huber Heights, OH
Oh, and recently at a class for the final 15 minutes or so my instructor allowed us (in pairs) one at a time to do a jujitsu/wrestling style of fighting just so we could try it out, and that seemed pretty cool (I was decent at it)
No you weren't. At best, you were slightly less horrible at it than your partner. Ground rolling/newaza is a skill. Skills require proper instruction and sufficient training time to functionalize. Any skill requires this whether cooking, blacksmithing, programming, or ground-grappling and 15 minutes of "hey, try this out!" won't even get you "decent" at just laying there in the right position, never mind actually grappling decent. Tae Kwon Do instruction is not sufficient for ground-grappling skill.

If this sounds harsh, I apologize. I'm not trying to be cruel, I'm trying to keep you from having false beliefs about your skill. Any student with one week of wrestling, BJJ, or newaza training would dominate someone with TKD training and 15 min. of "hey, try this!" when on the ground.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

jks9199

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
22,133
Reaction score
2,301
Location
Northern VA
I have serious reservations that most people could functionalize that much information that quickly. Human psychology just really isn't set up to work that way.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
It's a very intense, very focused program. I'd have to pull out the manual, but I'd say probably only about 12 or 13 set "techniques" or tactics in each level. It is NOT teaching the entire Krav Maga system. Since I just finished dinner... it's more like learning to a cook a 5 course Italian dinner compared to learning Italian cooking.

It's also not really about understanding any principles beyond the instruction model they use, and drilling the heck out of the techniques, practicing them in teach-backs or teach each others, etc.
 
Last edited:

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,739
Reaction score
5,631
I have serious reservations that most people could functionalize that much information that quickly. Human psychology just really isn't set up to work that way.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

We do 12 weeks to throw a guy in the ring. They generally come good a couple of weeks before. If they are naturally talented.

Certainly wouldn't be to teach anything.

I would use the same bench mark for SD. I mean they are at that point just comfortable throwing full contact techniques at someone throwing back. And looking like they had done martial arts at some stage in their life.
 
OP
G

Goarmy12charlie

White Belt
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
6
Reaction score
1
Location
North Carolina
No you weren't. At best, you were slightly less horrible at it than your partner. Ground rolling/newaza is a skill. Skills require proper instruction and sufficient training time to functionalize. Any skill requires this whether cooking, blacksmithing, programming, or ground-grappling and 15 minutes of "hey, try this out!" won't even get you "decent" at just laying there in the right position, never mind actually grappling decent. Tae Kwon Do instruction is not sufficient for ground-grappling skill.

If this sounds harsh, I apologize. I'm not trying to be cruel, I'm trying to keep you from having false beliefs about your skill. Any student with one week of wrestling, BJJ, or newaza training would dominate someone with TKD training and 15 min. of "hey, try this!" when on the ground.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Well, yes I suppose you are right. By "decent" I meant I was better than the person I was doing wi with, though I have no doubt most people who have any training in BJJ/wrestling could take me down. Wasn't trying to sound full of myself, just didn't explain properly.
 

MyrddinEmrys

White Belt
Joined
Oct 1, 2014
Messages
16
Reaction score
4
My possibly unnecessary 2 cents:

I once worked with a guy who had been a sheriff's deputy for 13 years, if I remember right. We spent a lot of time talking about various issues related to being a police officer. He was even trying to convince me to become one myself at one point. However, one of the reasons I did not was because of the ridiculousness of internal politics inside of law enforcement. Internal politics just about anywhere tend to be rather petty and/or immature, however the consequences in law enforcement can be much much worse. At a normal job it can get you fired, but as a cop it can get you in prison or dead. That doesn't mean everything about being a cop is automatically going to suck. The first sheriff he worked for was apparently quite good to work for, but his replacement is where things went down hill fast. I know this is a bit off topic from the discussion of krav maga and judo, but it seems like something that should be considered when contemplating that career path. So, I guess, from my talks with a former deputy, my advice would be to be careful and not let peer pressure corrupt your morals. (I'm sure there are law enforcement officers out there who can give first hand accounts of why I'm right or why I lucked out and found the one cop with a bad experience.)

Now back to the fun stuff: martial arts.

Another thing to consider is, it's not just about learning to physically defend yourself. If you can learn to control your emotions and speak tactfully you can avoid unnecessary aggression. My coworker even showed me a video once of this former cop giving a seminar/lecture on "verbal judo" where he used some judo/taichi/internal martial arts like principles to discuss how to verbally deal with people in order to avoid unnecessary anger and aggression. So, you see, you can, at least sometimes, take some of those martial arts principles and apply them to non physical interactions as well.

This might be the same guy and the same video, but I haven't watched the whole video to make sure:
 

Douglasmase

White Belt
Joined
Oct 5, 2015
Messages
5
Reaction score
1
Location
San Angelo, Tx
Hello and bare with me this is my first post online ever.

I'm a master in both Tang Soo Do (similar to Taekwondo) and Israeli Krav Maga (we actually train with the Israeli military). That being said Krav Maga does not have all the answers, just most of them.
When I received my first black belt in Taekwondo I was a kid so I had no understanding of real world self defense. Then as an adult I received my black belt in Tang Soo Do and realized I knew less than I thought I did.
Then I found Krav Maga. It is not a save all it gave me new picture of self defense to focus on, and a whole new mindset. Krav Maga gives you the tools for "contact combat", after all that is what it is, and a hands on approach that a lot of stand up fighting forms lack.
Yes, we do weapon disarms and things along those lines, but mostly you learn how to deal with an opponent up close and personal.
 

Bluesman

White Belt
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Messages
12
Reaction score
2
I did Krav for a year. It is good but a little overrated. It is very basic.....In fact maybe too basic. Most techniques are borrowed from other arts which most Krav instructors will put down??!! I think if you are competent in another ma (preferably full contact) then it can be a good addition and you might learn a few dirty tricks.
 

Langenschwert

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 12, 2007
Messages
1,023
Reaction score
351
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
Judo training is almost always of high quality, and is a fantastic base for any martial endeavour. Wrestling also. Join your school's wrestling team if they have one. Do it yesterday, if not sooner.
 

Bluesman

White Belt
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Messages
12
Reaction score
2
Judo tends to get paired with a lot of stuff. Judo+Boxing. Judo+Krav. Judo+FMA. Judo+Muay Thai. etc. Judo makes a good base close grappling + standing throwing/tripping art that mixes well with almost anything. Learning the first 16-24 Judo throws, 5-10 arm bars, and 3-8 chokes is very achievable for most folks and creates a really solid base to build on.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I agree with you 100%. I think that Judo is a great addition to any striking art. I am just coming to the end of my Judo training. I have been doing it for Two years. I decided not to grade as I was never in it for the long haul. I just wanted some grappling experience. I wish I had started it earlier as I might of stuck with it but coming up to 40 I find it a bit hard on the body!
 
D

Dylan9d

Guest
I think Krav Maga is a great way to make money, with lessons, exams and their merchandise.

Even if you fart in the traininghall you have to pay "airtax".

If we talk about effective techniques, there are other systems that handle stuff more efficient.
I keep saying that Krav is nice for beginners and housewives but thats it.
 

lklawson

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
4,443
Reaction score
1,170
Location
Huber Heights, OH
I agree with you 100%. I think that Judo is a great addition to any striking art. I am just coming to the end of my Judo training. I have been doing it for Two years. I decided not to grade as I was never in it for the long haul. I just wanted some grappling experience. I wish I had started it earlier as I might of stuck with it but coming up to 40 I find it a bit hard on the body!
In many Judo Dojos, yes. However, I believe that you can "do it right" and keep doing Judo into your decrepit age. I'm 47 (I think) and last night was teaching a 58yo yellow belt. Judo is NOT equivalent of shiai despite what many clubs seem to believe.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

mattjans

Yellow Belt
Joined
Nov 30, 2015
Messages
20
Reaction score
2
Location
Los Angeles
This is a great post! Not sure what I can add, other than to say enjoy the TKD, but just keep in the back of your mind that it's probably not really teaching you to fight. Krav, BJJ, Judo, or even straight-up MMA would be better. Heck, even boxing woukd be better because you really get hit. That "shoot boxing" sounds fun, too. If we're playing the "which art is better" game, I'd bet that the average wrestler would probably destroy the average TKD practitioner of similar size and ability. So maybe you can join your HS wrestling team and develop your own "MMA" routine. That would be eye-opening for sure

I say this all as a first Dan in TSD (started when I was 14, too, and was choosing between boxing and TSD...mom made me take TSD). I've been doing Krav for about 9 mos relatively regularly and 2 to 3 years off and on. I've had to unlearn much of what I learned in TSD. But as one early post said whatever you do, enjoy it. I still miss point sparring and forms sine days (for reasons completely unrelated to fighting).

TKD will definitely get you in shape and develop your timing. The fact that they spar a lot is good for later combat-type training. And if you go to Youtube you can always find one or two videos of street fights where someone lands a completely impractical (on average) TKD kick and knocks out the other guy. Though there are far more of people being taken down by a charge because they don't have Krav/combat/judo/bjj basics.

For a gun disarm that can't be beat Google "marx fastest gun disarm"

Good luck!
 

mattjans

Yellow Belt
Joined
Nov 30, 2015
Messages
20
Reaction score
2
Location
Los Angeles
I think Krav Maga is a great way to make money, with lessons, exams and their merchandise.

Even if you fart in the traininghall you have to pay "airtax".

If we talk about effective techniques, there are other systems that handle stuff more efficient.
I keep saying that Krav is nice for beginners and housewives but thats it.


For sake of discussion what "styles" would you recommend?

For the audience, the over-billing and fees doesn't show up in my gym. Of course it's the one that's run by the guy that used to run, but left KMWW. So may be intentionally different and not represent most of what's out there in "Mc Dojos"
 

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,355
Reaction score
4,645
Location
England
Friends of mine who are Israeli military say what is taught commercially is nothing like the techniques taught to the military, they also say they don't train with people outside the military nor 'foreigners'. Ex Israeli military may decide they can earn a living outside Israel teaching the watered down stuff of course :D
 
Top