Training Against The Blade

[MJS]

We had a thread talking about gun disarms, so I thought it would be interesting to discuss the blade. What are some training methods that you use to prepare yourself for a knife attack? Does anyone have any drills that they do during their classes?

Mike

 

[Paul Genge]

This is a link to an article that covers some of systema's drills used to learn about this kind of work.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)

 

[Nanalo74]

We train extensively with the blade. Training with the blade super charges our empty hands because the blade is so dangerous (it can kill you just by grazing you) that our reflexes, body mechanics and awareness become very sharp (no pun intended ).

On our DVD, Dynamic Kali Vol. 1: Knife Fighting, we have a very in-depth section on empty hands vs. the knife and some of the drills we use. Basically, anything you can do blade vs. blade can be done empty hand vs. blade with slight adjustments made to account for your lack of a weapon.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

 

[still learning]

Hello, We practice 10 different drills/attacks for this, most important one is: RUN

if can (must be able to run faster than the attacker).............................Aloha

 

[tshadowchaser]

Almost any thing I teach with the hands I try with a training kniofe to see if it works.
Found more than a few i will not ever do again against a blade.

 

[Danny T]

Almost any thing I teach with the hands I try with a training kniofe to see if it works.
Found more than a few i will not ever do again against a blade.

tshadowchaser,
This is so true. I stress often, "What works against a blade will work against an empty hand but what works against an empty hand won't necessarily work against a blade."

Danny

 

[arnisador]

Good advice. It works on offense too. I like training with the blade to improve my empty hands; blde technqiues generally become empty hands technqiues quite easily, excepting the little nickel-and-dime cuts. But some empty-hand technqiues are awkward with a blade.

 

[MJS]

Training the blade definately improves the empty hand skills. Working passing, flow drills, as well as knife sparring all helps to build those attributes.

Has anyone worked disarms with a live blade? Of course, this is something that should be done slowly, due to the nature of this drill. Doing this will IMO, certainly give you a different feel for the disarm (no pun intended ) as you'll be more aware of any mistakes that you make while working disarms, ie: getting your hand too close to the blade edge when working with a wooded or plastic knife, placing the blade edge against your arm, etc.

Mike

 

[Nanalo74]

Also, try training with different types of blades. Long, short, folder, fixed blade, balisong, etc. Each has a different feel and also, disarms are much more difficult on shorter blades. I usually opt to feed the knife back or do some kind of a quick break rather than risk trying to disarm a short folder.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

 

[arnisador]

Has anyone worked disarms with a live blade? Of course, this is something that should be done slowly, due to the nature of this drill.

Not so much as a practice drill but as a test to see that a forearm strip, say, is a safe technique.

 

[Nanalo74]

In my previous post, I meant that attempting to strip a shorter blade is difficult. After re-reading what I wrote the thought occured to me that there are other types of disarms other than a strip.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

 

[Navarre]

Could you describe a "forearm strip" please?

 

[Nanalo74]

Could you describe a "forearm strip" please?

A forearm strip is when you grab the weapon hand at the meat of the thumb with one hand and push against the flat part of the blade with your forearm to strip the knife from your opponent's grip.

Again, I wouldn't recommend trying this against a short blade as there is little margin for error.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

 

[Navarre]

Oh, okay. I know the technique, just not your term. Thanks.

I've also seen a technique used from a blade thrust (right-handed in this case) where your left hand strikes the back of the knife hand while the right hand pops the knife hand hard at the wrist.

The two strikes are done simultaneously and with a bit of circular motion torquing inward toward the wrist. The right arm is curved up with the elbow high to avoid the path of the blade as it turns inward. The body also curves in the opposite direction, again to avoid the blade in case of failure.

It is a disarm technique. Opinions on it?

 

[arnisador]

I've also seen a technique used from a blade thrust (right-handed in this case) where your left hand strikes the back of the knife hand while the right hand pops the knife hand hard at the wrist.

This is a crossada motion in the FMAs (or maybe a gunting, depending on just how you do it and what art we're talking about). It can work. You want to be clear of the blade's path, and you don't want to count on a disarm--but it'll likely loosen his grip enough to buy you some time for your next move.

 

[searcher]

Be prepared to get cut if you have to defend against a blade. It is gonna happen.

 

[Knarfan]

One thing that you have to keep in mind when your trying any disarms is not just worrying about the mistakes that you might make when attempting a disarm but, for every disarm there is a disarm counter. In sayoc Kali we have a whole bunch of disarms, which are probably very similar to all of the disarms that are being discussed here. The usuals forearm strips, high line, low line & percussions. The problem is that our disarm counters are alot more effective then the disarms & they are designed not only to stop the disarm but, the counter usually results in a very serious vital target injury & there is nothing that the person attempting the disarm can really do to stop it, it happens to fast & it usualy results in some type of major artery damage because the counter isn't designed to only stop the disarm but, to eliminate the threat by attacking a vital target on the half beat. So if you commit to a disarm, the disarm counter is like taking candy from a baby. So my advice is if you do attempt a disarm be ready to bail out & at the very least protect your vital targets even if it means taking a less serious cut. I would much rather projectile somthing , run or draw a blade before I would attempt a disarm. Although I practice disarms all of the time in training & I am actually pretty good at them but they are just to risky if somone knows some nasty counters.

 

[Navarre]

So what is your mental approach then to a knife-weilding opponent, sayoc?

 

[Knarfan]

So what is your mental approach then to a knife-weilding opponent, sayoc?

I'm not sure if I really understand your question but, Sayoc would be my response, maybe not in the way you might think though. I consider anybody who is attempting to harm another person with an edged weapon very dangerous & to be honest with you the thought of having to face somone like that scares the crap out of me. Although I may have a proactive approach to dealing with this type of situation, meaning I don't really think that if my back was really against the wall that your basic self defense is going to save my life. Lets just say that I would put most of my energy into trying to descalate the situation, this would include running, begging, what ever it takes but, if I was left with NO other options but to protect myself I would do what ever it takes to keep myself alive & any of my loved ones that might be present. Lets just say attempting a disarm wouldn't be my first choice.

 

[Danny T]

One thing that you have to keep in mind when your trying any disarms is not just worrying about the mistakes that you might make when attempting a disarm but, for every disarm there is a disarm counter. The problem is that our disarm counters are alot more effective then the disarms

Yes! For every attack there are several counters. For every counter there are several re-counters and for every re-counters there again are counters and so on.

Most all the arts I have seen or been involved with have many disarms. The problem I see with most of them is the manner the disarms are attempted and when they are attempted. In Pekiti disarms are performed as a function of attacking. Of course one can only disarm but it is something we strongly discourage because as Sayoc FF was referring to; the counters are more effective than just disarming. When performed with-in the function of attacking the disarms happen due to proper positioning and attacking. Something I stress and all my Pekiti instructors have stressed is to never attempt a disarm or a joint lock if the hand/arm or the head is still working properly. What makes all the disarming work is to damage the weapon hand/arm and/or the head “First” then with proper positioning as you follow-up the initial attack or counter with a hit the disarm is there. Disrupt the intelligence, damage the weapons capability, destroy the weapons system. Hit the head, hit the weapon arm, take out the body. Is it possible to simply disarm another? Yes. Can that be effective? Yes but, what is the higher percentage move? What will be most effective more often? When in a fight with or without weapons there are no absolutes and what works well once may never work again.

As to being prepared to be cut if defending against a blade. I feel this is a major part of the problem. If you are defending against the blade then you are fighting the blade and will probably lose or get hurt badly. Don't fight the blade, damage and control what is wielding the blade, damage and take out the head and body.

Danny