How "Korean" is Tang Soo Do?
- Thread starter Makalakumu
- Start date
Montecarlodrag
Green Belt
It is as korean, as Japanese Shotokan is...
Are we measuring presence or degree? (sorry, working on thesis today)
If this is a binary measure, i.e. "Is Tang Soo Do a Korean style? Yes or No?"
Then I would answer yes. It was created in Korea, by a Korean. While it borrows heavily from other styles, it does have organic material and its roots lie in Korea.
If this is a qualitative measure, i.e. "How Korean is Tang Soo Do?"
Then it is a much harder question to answer. There is some Chinese influence in there, there is some Japanese influence, there is some okinawan influence...the creator studied styles from all of these places and incorporated some of their techniques and ideas. But, it does have its own material and more importantly, its own interpretation of the imported material. Through its evolution, it is now fairly easy to tell the difference between a Chinese style, a Japanese styles, and a Korean style.
You know, I should probably put a blurb in my signature that":
EVERYTHING IS SCHOOL SPECIFIC
I'm speaking in general terms here, but your school may be different.
If this is a binary measure, i.e. "Is Tang Soo Do a Korean style? Yes or No?"
Then I would answer yes. It was created in Korea, by a Korean. While it borrows heavily from other styles, it does have organic material and its roots lie in Korea.
If this is a qualitative measure, i.e. "How Korean is Tang Soo Do?"
Then it is a much harder question to answer. There is some Chinese influence in there, there is some Japanese influence, there is some okinawan influence...the creator studied styles from all of these places and incorporated some of their techniques and ideas. But, it does have its own material and more importantly, its own interpretation of the imported material. Through its evolution, it is now fairly easy to tell the difference between a Chinese style, a Japanese styles, and a Korean style.
You know, I should probably put a blurb in my signature that":
EVERYTHING IS SCHOOL SPECIFIC
I'm speaking in general terms here, but your school may be different.
OP
OP
It's a matter of degree. Lets say we assign percentages and then provide evidence. Okinawan, Japanese, Korean, Chinese how much of TSD draws from these areas? Lets not look at the origination of other arts because then we are just going to get back to China. Lets limit this to the cultural contribitions from the time of the founding until the present.
So we're making the assumption that there is organic Korean material here. Also, I would say that we should generalize to the art as the whole of TSD. Do the best to set aside different organizations, schools, etc.
This is going to take some thought.
TSD is as much Korean as is TKD, now with that being said it has influence from Shotakan and the Chinese and Okinawa roots. But we must remember it is a Korean art just the same. If not for the Korean putting some other arts together and using some of there own there would be no TSD.
OP
OP
One thing I'd like to tease out is exactly how much and where the Korean influence is evident in TSD.
Just by the founding fathers, all the rest came from somewhere else like shotokan
Ok, so I've put some thought into it....
I would say that at least 40% of the material that we practice is Okinawan. Another 20% Japanese, 10% Chinese, and the last 30% Korean.
I say this because much of our hyung and basics are okinawan in descent, our Self Defense comes from Aikido by way of Hapkido in some cases. The 10% chinese coming from the new Kichos, Chil Sung, Yuk Ro Forms, as well as Moo Pahl Dan Kum.
I say that 30% is Korean because basically all of our kicks are Korean with touches of influence from other styles. Also, I believe that the way that we use our hips is completely Korean.
The problem is that these numbers are so arbitrary. I would say that the best way to narrow it down is through an iterative process. My suggestion would be that we start from these numbers:
40% Okinawan
30% Korean
20% Japanese
10% Chinese
And someone else can propose alterations to these numbers. Adjustments one way or another based on evidence or support for your suggestions. Obviously mine have little to no basis, but that is how an iterative process starts!
I would say that at least 40% of the material that we practice is Okinawan. Another 20% Japanese, 10% Chinese, and the last 30% Korean.
I say this because much of our hyung and basics are okinawan in descent, our Self Defense comes from Aikido by way of Hapkido in some cases. The 10% chinese coming from the new Kichos, Chil Sung, Yuk Ro Forms, as well as Moo Pahl Dan Kum.
I say that 30% is Korean because basically all of our kicks are Korean with touches of influence from other styles. Also, I believe that the way that we use our hips is completely Korean.
The problem is that these numbers are so arbitrary. I would say that the best way to narrow it down is through an iterative process. My suggestion would be that we start from these numbers:
40% Okinawan
30% Korean
20% Japanese
10% Chinese
And someone else can propose alterations to these numbers. Adjustments one way or another based on evidence or support for your suggestions. Obviously mine have little to no basis, but that is how an iterative process starts!
Cirdan
Senior Master
Yes. Even the names mean the same.
punisher73
Senior Master
That's a tough one. I gave a similiar answer concerning TKD.
The founder studied Shotokan and lifted it almost verbatim back to Korea. Then a story was made up to take out the japanese reference/credit and the art was said to have come from China. Tang=China
Now though, the art has been influenced by Korean culture and ways of doing things, so it is tough to say how much is "korean". I would say that it is a very low percentage in comparision to the amount of Japanese influence. Even though, Shotokan came from Okinawa, it was not learned there. It had already been modified by the Japanese into their own unique approach. So I would say that there isn't much "okinawan" influence as far as a direct influence. Also, the performance of the forms reflect more of the japanese way of doing things, than the older okinawan way.
The founder studied Shotokan and lifted it almost verbatim back to Korea. Then a story was made up to take out the japanese reference/credit and the art was said to have come from China. Tang=China
Now though, the art has been influenced by Korean culture and ways of doing things, so it is tough to say how much is "korean". I would say that it is a very low percentage in comparision to the amount of Japanese influence. Even though, Shotokan came from Okinawa, it was not learned there. It had already been modified by the Japanese into their own unique approach. So I would say that there isn't much "okinawan" influence as far as a direct influence. Also, the performance of the forms reflect more of the japanese way of doing things, than the older okinawan way.
OP
OP
My numbers shift depending on whether one practices the chil sung and yuk ro hyung as well as the basic associated.
Tang Soo Do without Chil Sung, Yuk Ro, and Ho Sin Shul is about 75% Japanese. The comment was made that Hu-ri was innovative and that it was Korean. From my experience Hu-ri is one type of hip movement found in Shotokan and it is emphasized more strongly with all of the techniques in TSD.
With that being said, there has been some direct transfer of technique from Okinawan Karate. Many of the techniques that we practice in TSD are more circular then there Japanese counterparts and this is more reflective of Okinawan practice. Whether this is because of coincidence or direct influence, I am not entirely sure. That said, I'd put the number at 5%.
The Korean component of TSD comprises the addition of several methods of kicking, some terminology and philosophy, and the creation of Ho Sin Shul. Where exactly Ho Sin Shul techniques come from would be a great thread on its own, but I generally see these Korean adaptations of some techniques in Aikijutsu. In the end, I'd put the figure at 20%.
When you add in the new basics, the Chil Sung, and Yuk Ro hyungs, then you see a shift. You see a decrease in the amount of purely Japanese material and an increase in influence from China. The techniques aren't purely Chinese, but they were obviously inspired.
I would say Japanese 60%, Korean 25%, Chinese 10%, and Okinawa 5% if TSD is practiced with the typical Federation SBD syllabus.
Tang Soo Do without Chil Sung, Yuk Ro, and Ho Sin Shul is about 75% Japanese. The comment was made that Hu-ri was innovative and that it was Korean. From my experience Hu-ri is one type of hip movement found in Shotokan and it is emphasized more strongly with all of the techniques in TSD.
With that being said, there has been some direct transfer of technique from Okinawan Karate. Many of the techniques that we practice in TSD are more circular then there Japanese counterparts and this is more reflective of Okinawan practice. Whether this is because of coincidence or direct influence, I am not entirely sure. That said, I'd put the number at 5%.
The Korean component of TSD comprises the addition of several methods of kicking, some terminology and philosophy, and the creation of Ho Sin Shul. Where exactly Ho Sin Shul techniques come from would be a great thread on its own, but I generally see these Korean adaptations of some techniques in Aikijutsu. In the end, I'd put the figure at 20%.
When you add in the new basics, the Chil Sung, and Yuk Ro hyungs, then you see a shift. You see a decrease in the amount of purely Japanese material and an increase in influence from China. The techniques aren't purely Chinese, but they were obviously inspired.
I would say Japanese 60%, Korean 25%, Chinese 10%, and Okinawa 5% if TSD is practiced with the typical Federation SBD syllabus.
TangSoo Do is just the Korean way of saying Karate Do, carried over from Tode from Okanawa. Won Kuk Lee, the first to use the term in Korea and the first TSD dojang, had studied Shoto Kan in Japan. So yes, I would say that's a very good description of TSD = Korean Karate.
At first with only the name change to TaeKwonDo, my first TKD school had a big sign out front that said "Korean Karate" too (of course it's evolved from that now).
At first with only the name change to TaeKwonDo, my first TKD school had a big sign out front that said "Korean Karate" too (of course it's evolved from that now).
Similar threads
Latest Discussions
-
-
Some MA teachers only teach form without application?- Latest: windwalker099
-
-
-
