How effective is the MT knee strike?

[skribs]

Yes, absolutely. In fact I tell my students that whenever I teach them how to execute a technique I am also implicitly teaching them how to counter that same technique. Because every step and detail that you want to apply to your opponent is a step and detail you want to keep them from applying to you.

I will argue that knowing what details you want to keep them from applying and drilling keeping them from applying are related, but separate skills.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You look at this from a striker point of view. I look at this from a grappler point of view. Not saying who is right, or who is wrong, just compare the difference.

Remember I’m more of a grappler than I am a striker. Muay Thai is a secondary art for me.

I’d also argue that’s somewhat of a false dichotomy. MT clinch work is grappling, it’s just grappling with a primary goal of seating up strikes rather than takedowns. (Although takedowns do exist in MT.)

I may drop so low that your elbow won't be able to reach to my head.

That’s what my other arm is for, to track and control your movement so my elbow can be on target.

Both wrestling single leg and double legs are powerful take down. The MT knee strike can be a free gift to a wrestler.

- A tries to reach to B's leg.
- B gives his leg to A.

Which one is easier for A?

Yep. This is why only certain elements of the MT clinch game have been incorporated into MMA. MT rules allow certain sweeps and throws, but not double leg takedowns. So they tend to work from a very upright stance in the clinch, which can be vulnerable to the double leg. MMA fighters tend to incorporate more wrestling into their clinch, although the MT style double collar tie has a definite place if you know how to set it up and prepare for wrestling style counters.

This is actually a bit of a double edged sword. In Muay Thai competition you usually don’t see that completely dominant double collar tie with the opponent’s posture totally broken. That’s because everyone knows the importance of staying tall and upright to prevent being caught there. In MMA this isn’t such a desirable stance because of the danger of getting hit with a single or double leg, so fighters stay lower and sometimes bend over to set up a wrestling shot or duck a punch … which can open them up for getting caught in the double collar tie and getting their posture broken. It’s a bit of rock-paper-scissors.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ultimately, all the best counters to the plum clinch position involve not letting your opponent break your structure first. Once your structure is broken things get very difficult.

This is the lesson that I learned. Once that structure is broken, it's like stumbling everywhere. I was just happy I didn't experience it in competition. My ribs would have been lit up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

not letting your opponent break your structure first. Once your structure is broken things get very difficult.

IMO, to break your opponent's structure forward/backward is not that bad. But to break your opponent's structure side way is even worse. The head lock is used to achieve that - bend your opponent's spin sideway.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

IMO, to break your opponent's structure forward/backward is not that bad. But to break your opponent's structure side way is even worse. The head lock is used to achieve that - bend your opponent's spin sideway.

That’s an important aspect of the MT double collar tie. Once you get the head bent forward it weakens your opponent’s neck so you can twist it side to side and thereby manipulate his whole body.

 

[Martial D]

You use both hands to control my head. You can't punch/elbow me at that time. You can only knee strike at me. But I have 2 free hands to catch your leg. The moment I can catch your leg, I can sweep/hook your rooting leg, the striking game will be over, the grappling game will start.

Who has advantage at that moment?

When you have double collar tie on me, I can also use my right knee strike at your right inside upper leg. My right leg can then inner hook your left standing leg and take you down.

Only if you have balance and posture...which you will not if the guy that has you in the plumb is any good. You will be having your head jerked from side to side constantly and be playing catch up with that before the knees are even a factor.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Let's compare the difference between MT double collar tie and double underhooks.

1. MT double collar tie - you control your opponent's neck. You may break his structure, or you may not. Your opponent has 2 free arms.
2. Double underhook - you control both of your opponent's arms. Your opponent still has structure. You can change your double underhooks to bear hug anytime you want to.

IMO, 1 < 2.

 

[Martial D]

You look at this from a striker point of view. I look at this from a grappler point of view. Not saying who is right, or who is wrong, just compare the difference.

I may drop so low that your elbow won't be able to reach to my head.

Both wrestling single leg and double legs are powerful take down. The MT knee strike can be a free gift to a wrestler.

- A tries to reach to B's leg.
- B gives his leg to A.

Which one is easier for A?

Do you not see how lowering your head while being controlled by your neck when someone intends to knee you might not be the best strategy?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you not see how lowering your head while being controlled by your neck when someone intends to knee you might not be the best strategy?

That is America wrestling "single leg" solution. I don't like to drop my head that low. I prefer to use Chinese wrestling "bear hug outer hook" solution by using my head to push on my opponent's shoulder instead.

 

[Unkogami]

You are not a good MT fighter if your

1. double collar tie cannot break your opponent's body structure.
2. opponent's double collar tie can break your body structure.

Do 1 and 2 contradict to each other?

I have met so many MT guys who were suckers for a duck under and/or a foot sweep.

 

[Unkogami]

That is America wrestling "single leg" solution. I don't like to drop my head that low. I prefer to use Chinese wrestling "bear hug outer hook" solution by using my head to push on my opponent's shoulder instead.

Standing up that straight you are asking to be put down hard.

 

[Tez3]

How effective is the MT knee strike? Your thought?

Here is an example that:

- A knees strike at B.
- B catch A's leg and takes A down.

It depends on who is doing it. Can be devastating or practically a caress. This is the case with all techniques.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Standing up that straight you are asking to be put down hard.

As long as you are on top, you have weight advantage.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It depends on who is doing it. Can be devastating or practically a caress. This is the case with all techniques.

Agree!

- All techniques can be counter.
- All counters can be countered.
- All counters to counters can be countered.
- ...

The only thing cannot be countered is when it's too late to counter (such as your opponent has destroyed your structure).

 

[jayoliver00]

That is America wrestling "single leg" solution. I don't like to drop my head that low. I prefer to use Chinese wrestling "bear hug outer hook" solution by using my head to push on my opponent's shoulder instead.

Of course this can work, it's just a demo vid, so it will always work when demo'ing a tech. And it's a legit tech, no doubt.

In a real fight, I'm not going to double collar tie and just stand there; as soon as I get the MT full plum, my elbows & forearm would post to your chest (to keep you from going forward while locking you in knee range), then usually 1-2 knees into your chest, then drive you by the neck 45deg -> 1-2 knees again, then keep repeating this until you're broken & the knees should go to the face easily. In sparring, I'd gets swept by a good wrestler b/c I'm not really blasting my friend/sparring partners with real knees. But all of this is just how I usually fight, and I certainly can lose to a better wrestler, KF guy, etc. No perfect techniques on either side.

Here's a good video showing how to counter the MT full plum (if they just stand there):

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Of course this can work, it's just a demo vid, so it will always work when demo'ing a tech. And it's a legit tech, no doubt.

The "bear hug outer hook" has been used in the ring.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In a real fight, I'm not going to double collar tie and just stand there; as soon as I get the MT full plum, my elbows & forearm would ...

You have just assumed that you are better than your opponent. If that's the case, no matter what your opponent may do, he will always lose.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Let's look at this from a different angle (not absolute). As a teacher, you may tell your students:

In clinch, you should try

1. to control your opponent's leading arm.
2. not to let your opponent to control your leading arm.

Do you think your statement make sense to your students?

Yes (assuming it makes sense to control that leading arm). You're saying it's dangerous to have your leading arm controlled, so do that to the other guy and don't let him do it to you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You look at this from a striker point of view. I look at this from a grappler point of view. Not saying who is right, or who is wrong, just compare the difference.

I may drop so low that your elbow won't be able to reach to my head.

Both wrestling single leg and double legs are powerful take down. The MT knee strike can be a free gift to a wrestler.

- A tries to reach to B's leg.
- B gives his leg to A.

Which one is easier for A?

Dropping low while a knee is coming up seems problematic.

That aside, Tony's point about posture control is absolutely a grappler's perspective. Grappling is mostly about position and structure - the person with the better position and structure has the most options for technique.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is America wrestling "single leg" solution. I don't like to drop my head that low. I prefer to use Chinese wrestling "bear hug outer hook" solution by using my head to push on my opponent's shoulder instead.

How do you get that head to a shoulder when they are controlling it with that double collar tie, though?