How do you rate this jeans and boots roundhouse kick?

[Paul Smith]

I'm Japan Karate Association. We would be trying to land facing the opponent. The way she started to turn away exposes her to an attack from her opponent. The other guy moves back I would be straight in with a counter attack. We dont follow through with the kick. We make contact & retract the kick to land forward so we still face our opponent & continue the attack if needed unless there is a follow up with an ushiro geri (rear kick) or similar. A properly executed Mawashi that snaps back at the knee, not pulled back then steps down with a follow up technique is our usual way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

We dont follow through with the kick. We make contact & retract the kick to land forward so ...

Let's talk about common sense and stay away from style difference.

When you

- stab a spear at your opponent, do you want your spear to go through his body?
- chop a tree down, do you want your knife to go through the tree?

Why do you want to "retract" and not to "go through"?

When you hold a stick on one end with another end on the ground, if you step through, you can break it. If you step and retract, that stick will act like a spring and bounce you back. I just don't see any value for that "retract".

The Karate spin hook kick is a good examples. There is no "retract" when you do that.

You spin your body

- backward in spin hook kick.
- forward in roundhouse kick.

 

[Flying Crane]

Let's talk about common sense and stay away from style difference.

When you

- stab a spear at your opponent, do you want your spear to go through his body?
- chop a tree down, do you want your knife to go through the tree?

Why do you want to "retract" and not to "go through"?

When you hold a stick on one end with another end on the ground, if you step through, you can break it. If you step and retract, that stick will act like a spring and bounce you back. I just don't see any value for that "retract".

The Karate spin hook kick is a good examples. There is no "retract" when you do that.

You spin your body

- backward in spin hook kick.
- forward in roundhouse kick.

You are presenting a false dichotomy. It isn’t an absolute. It is a maybe and a sometimes and sometimes not. It depends. Really, it does.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You are presenting a false dichotomy. It isn’t an absolute. It is a maybe and a sometimes and sometimes not. It depends. Really, it does.

How do you "retract" when you chop down a tree or split firewood?

IMO, "retract" is a bad habit that developed through the solo form training. When you kick into the thin air, it may make sense to retract your kick. But when your foot land on a solid object, the "retract" just make no sense to me.

It's similar to the light contact sparring that you pull your punch. The more that you pull your punch, the less that you understand "go though" power.

 

[JowGaWolf]

We make contact & retract the kick to land forward so we still face our opponent & continue the attack if needed unless there is a follow up with an ushiro geri (rear kick) or similar.

If the kick makes contact then you'll end up in this position regardless of if you follow through or not.

If you miss the kick then you should always have a recover plan for what to do next when you miss. The follow through is what is why these kicks are so damaging.

Had the bats not broken then his leg would have ended in the position that you describe. If I were to block that kick with my arm then it wouldn't matter if his back is turned to me, because I wouldn't have a working arm to take advantage of it.

If you have a predetermined point in which you will retract your leg then all I have to do is move beyond that point. For example, if you kick me with your right leg and you pull back when your leg gets to 180 degrees then I only need to stand at 185 degree. So I move to my right a few inches to avoid the full power of your kick. However if you follow through that 5 inches to my right isn't going to save me.

If you only pull back after you make contact, then it sounds like you are following through. Because if I move to the right, your leg will still follow through seeking to make contact. Keep in mind this is only for the round house kick that doesn't snap.

The snap kicks are like jabs, totally different kick.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The snap kicks are like jabs, totally different kick.

If you use roundhouse kick as a fake kick, you may not care about power generation.

 

[Flying Crane]

How do you "retract" when you chop down a tree or split firewood?

These are definitely not the same thing.

IMO, "retract" is a bad habit that developed through the solo form training. When you kick into the thin air, it may make sense to retract your kick. But when your foot land on a solid object, the "retract" just make no sense to me.

I can absolutely penetrate with a kick, and still retract it before I put it down. Training on a heavy bag is key to understanding this.

It's similar to the light contact sparring that you pull your punch. The more that you pull your punch, the less that you understand "go though" power.

I understand your point, but this is not the same thing. Light contact in sparring means you pull back on power. Retracting a kick means you deliver power through the target first, then you retract before the kick can be caught if the enemy guarded in such a way that it didn't land solidly and didn’t do as much damage as you intended.

 

[JowGaWolf]

How do you "retract" when you chop down a tree or split firewood?

IMO, "retract" is a bad habit that developed through the solo form training. When you kick into the thin air, it may make sense to retract your kick. But when your foot land on a solid object, the "retract" just make no sense to me.

It's similar to the light contact sparring that you pull your punch. The more that you pull your punch, the less that you understand "go though" power.

I don't think the retract by itself is a bad thing. The leg has to return home for this type of kick. If it lands then you want to retrieve it after it had done it's works. Even the guy chopping a try has to retract the axe. I think the difference is if a person has a predetermined point where the leg will retract or if the person only retracts the leg after it has made contact.

This is a karate round house kick. It follows through. If you look at the position of the bat holder's hands you can see where the kick has followed through. But in the video it doesn't follow through like a muay thai kick. The mechanics of this kick are different from the Muay Thai round house kick as this one doesn't turn the hip over, evident by the upper Torso.

I'm still a believe that it should follow through. How far it goes through will depend on the mechanics of the kick and how much that hip is turned over. I'm all for a quick return of a kicking leg. I'm not fond of a snapping kicking. I don't want my kick to whip like a towel. I want it crash like I'm trying to break something. My reasoning behind his is because there's no guarantee that my kick will land for a second time, so I don't want to waste it by doing something that doesn't cause damage. Competition sparring (not fighting) will be different because at that point you aren't trying to land critical blows like you would in a real fight.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you use roundhouse kick as a fake kick, you may not care about power generation.

And you may not get a second chance to land that same kick. Kick me too light in the head and I may prevent all other round house kicks from reaching my head. That means the only round house kick that landed was actually wasted. This is the mentality of why people say (Make every shot count).

I understand this is not the case for many but I think from the perspective that you and I often look at martial arts, It' just better not to do things that won't cause harm to your attacker. In sports, it's going to be different. In training it's going to be different. If a fight full contact like MMA or a street fight, everything should count. Things like Jabs and snap kicks should be hard enough that your attacker fears it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Retracting a kick means you deliver power through the target first, then you retract before the kick can be caught if the enemy guarded in such a way that it didn't land solidly and didn’t do as much damage as you intended.

This is how I see it. Deliver power. After it's gone the return the leg. Power is like a peak. It quickly increases then decreases. Follow through should be done during the increase phase of that peak. The decrease phase serves no benefit so it's best to take your leg back instead of just letting it sit on your opponent.

The range of that peak increase will vary depending on the mechanics of the kick. Some kicks have shorter peaks meaning they don't travel as far. Say a kick to the groin, or a front kick. With these kicks there's no way to extend the power beyond the full extension of the leg. Round house kicks are different and can continue that power increase even after the leg is extended. But they all should follow that same rule. Once that power increase drops off, quickly retract that leg.

Missing a kick is something different.

This kick is considered to be a round house kick, But I wonder if that's an accurate translation as it does not hit with the same part of the leg as other round house kicks use. If I were to turn my front kick (using the ball of my foot) horizontally then this is the type of kick it would produce and to me that's a different kick than a round house kick. This is more of a stabbing kick and not a breaking kick

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do anybody believe that to quick pull a punch back can cause more damage than to let your punch to go through your opponent's body?

 

[drop bear]

If you use roundhouse kick as a fake kick, you may not care about power generation.

Question mark kicks generally retract. But they also knock people out.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Question mark kicks generally retract. But they also knock people out.

These kicks have the shorter power peak. You can see that they still follow through, fully extended. But after that there's no more power, so no need to try to get more out of the kick beyond that point.

If this was a round house kick then he would have already used the majority of the power for this kick. This kick is still good enough to cause damage even though it's no where near the power of a round house kick (not the one with the toe). You aren't breaking any bats with this power, but it's still enough "to turn off the lights" when it lands on the right spot. We know that the kick follows through because we can see the impact of the head as the neck bends side ways.

The problem that we are currently running into is that we have different definitions of what qualifies a kick as a round house kick.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Nobody has answered my question yet. Has anybody ever retracted a

- behind ankle foot sweep, or
- spin back hook kick?

 

[dvcochran]

Do anybody believe that to quick pull a punch back can cause more damage than to let your punch to go through your opponent's body?

Not on its own I do not thing so. When you consider how it sets up or leads to other strikes then yes.

 

[Buka]

News flash - everybody's correct.

 

[Flying Crane]

News flash - everybody's correct.

Oh, you mean it depends? What a novel concept!

 

[wab25]

Nobody has answered my question yet. Has anybody ever retracted a

- behind ankle foot sweep, or
- spin back hook kick?

Not sure I could even do a spin back hook kick... but I do retract my foot sweeps. Once I have swept the foot, delivered the power, I retract my foot. See below:

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not sure I could even do a spin back hook kick... but I do retract my foot sweeps. Once I have swept the foot, delivered the power, I retract my foot. See below:

You follow through on this. Even beyond the point of contact. You didn't retract your leg until the power of your sweep reached it's power peak. You can see in this picture just how much you followed through

Your leg starts outside his center line, then you sweep through his centerline beyond contact. You did not retreat upon contact.

You continue to sweep because your sweep is still increasing in power and it hasn't reduced yet. The picture below shows your power peak, at this point, there's no need to follow through and you return your leg. At this point I like the term "Return." Retract makes me think of something I do so that my opponent doesn't catch my leg or it's something I do when I'm pulling power from my punches or kicks. When I do light sweeps, I'll still follow through but at a lighter force so that I'm not actually able to move the leg too far beyond the center line. But back to your sweep. Look at the height of your leg. Good follow through by the way.

Here you can see your foot return so you can regain your root (on two feet) and to transition into your next technique.

This position is why I prefer the term "return" because you weren't just retracting it, you return your leg so that you can use it to transition into your next technique. Sort of like how a punch "returns" to chamber so that it can be ready to go back out.. Your leg was never in danger after the sweep. Technically if your root on one leg is strong enough, then you could just leave your leg up and your opponent would still fall. But if you leave your leg up you wouldn't be able to move to transition to the next technique.)

I think the retract that Wang is talking about is is where your leg makes contacts and doesn't send power all the way through. It retracts shortly after making contact like what you see in many point sparring events and light sparring.

 

[Flying Crane]

With a snap kick such as a front snap kick and some kinds of roundhouse kicks, people can become too focused on snapping it back as quickly as possible, to the point where they fail to penetrate and deliver power before snapping it back. That is a problem.

But the antidote does not need to be to drop the foot directly down where it could be in danger of a sweep, if the enemy is not injured and has managed to read you.

Instead, you work on a heavy bag and learn to deliver good penetration and power before you retract. Then you can place your foot where you want, including foreword if appropriate.

So it depends.

This problem tends to occur when people spend too much time practicing their kicks in the air and little or no time on a heavy bag. In the air, they are quick and snappy and visually appealing. But it is very easy to not develop power and penetration that way and never even suspect you have a problem. I suspect kicking some of the hand-held pads may also contribute to the problem. That stuff can be part of the training, but you really need regular time on a heavy bag in order to develop power and penetration.