How Do You Define "Martial Arts?"

[Blindside]

There are weapons in martial arts but generally speaking the definition of it is not used correctly.

It means war art, so if you want to put it that way is shooting someone a martial art? There are of course more traditional weapons but when it comes to what is commonly practiced it is the unarmed stuff.

That is what I have seen anyway, I see a lot more people training unarmed fighting vs training with a guan dao or a bo.

With regard to guns and martial arts, the Japanese samurai included the firearm into their martial traditions because they saw the value:

Are you going to claim that what they do is not a martial art?

Personally I spend more of my time training with a weapon in my hand than without one, and yes I believe what I do qualifies as a martial art. Just because something is common it does not exclude the uncommon. And as I said earlier in this thread I would fully include the training of a fighter pilot to be a martial art as would an infantryman learning to fight his M4. These are clearly modern martial arts, you don't need belts and titles to make something into a "martial art."

 

[Ironbear24]

Are you going to claim that what they do is not a martial art?

Yes.

These are clearly modern martial arts, you don't need belts and titles to make something into a "martial art."

No one ever said you need belts and titles to make something a martial art. There are many martial arts that do not use either.

Just because something is common it does not exclude the uncommon. And as I said earlier in this thread I would fully include the training of a fighter pilot to be a martial art as would an infantryman learning to fight his M4.

The thing is I stated I do not believe that qualifies as a martial art, does my opinion detract from anything you do or believe in?

 

[Saheim]

From Dictionary dot com

Martial
adjective
1.
inclined or disposed to war; warlike:
The ancient Romans were a martial people.
2.
of, suitable for, or associated with war or the armed forces:
martial music.
3.
characteristic of or befitting a warrior:

Art
noun
1.
the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.

(cut some off the second list because the last sentence seemed most appropriate)

By these two definitions, I'd have say - War tactics done at a level beyond the capability of the average person. "Characteristics" is a broad term that could include things like Honor and Ethics (just sayin)

When I (re)met my current instructor, he asked what I was trying to accomplish. I said that my employer expects me to be able to physically control people with as little damage as possible, and that is important, but my personal goal was to learn the most efficient and effective methods of breaking the human body (obviously under justified conditions and for the prevention of criminal violence). To me, that is what the PHYSICAL side of MA is.

 

[Blindside]

The thing is I stated I do not believe that qualifies as a martial art, does my opinion detract from anything you do or believe in?

Nope, I only seek to understand how you as an experienced student of fighting arts manage to parse this logic. I can certainly understand how someone outside of the martial arts world might say "yeah martial arts is karate/judo/bjj," but I don't really understand how someone who is versed in the martial arts would come to a similar conclusion.

So a samurai who trained in jujitsu to free his hands to access his weapons is a martial artists.

The same samurai who then uses his weapon (sword, bow, spear) as he is trained is probably not practicing a martial art because "martial arts" are unarmed according to your definition.

The same samurai who trains to use a matchlock on the battlefield is definitely not practicing a martial art because it involves a gun.

I ask because I am an instructor and am curious how students think about these things.

 

[Prostar]

2 simple words, yet both can have a number of different meanings for people.

So, let the discussion begin. How do you define it?

My instructor once told us, "Dirty fighting turned into an art."

 

[Flying Crane]

From Dictionary dot com

Martial
adjective
1.
inclined or disposed to war; warlike:
The ancient Romans were a martial people.
2.
of, suitable for, or associated with war or the armed forces:
martial music.
3.
characteristic of or befitting a warrior:

Art
noun
1.
the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.

(cut some off the second list because the last sentence seemed most appropriate)

By these two definitions, I'd have say - War tactics done at a level beyond the capability of the average person. "Characteristics" is a broad term that could include things like Honor and Ethics (just sayin)

When I (re)met my current instructor, he asked what I was trying to accomplish. I said that my employer expects me to be able to physically control people with as little damage as possible, and that is important, but my personal goal was to learn the most efficient and effective methods of breaking the human body (obviously under justified conditions and for the prevention of criminal violence). To me, that is what the PHYSICAL side of MA is.

I put forth a different definition for "art", this one supplied by Google:

"A skill at doing a specified thing, typically one acquired through practice."

Examples give are "the art of conversation" and "the art of writing"

Synonyms given are: skill, craft, technique, knack, facility, ability, know-how.

I believe this is the appropriate definition when speaking of martial arts. Interestingly, this is a close parallel with the Chinese term "Kung-fu" which does not refer to fighting methods, but rather refers to skill (in any topic) acquired through hard work.

When speaking of martial arts, we are talking about methods and systems and techniques of combat. We are not speaking of an artistic endeavor in the sense of dance or painting. It has nothing to do with beauty or being asthetically pleasing. Any part of it that happens to strike your fancy as beautiful is a coincidence, or else is a deliberate detour from the original intentions of the martial art, to turn it into performance art.

In these discussions, people often get confused about that one term, art. They often translate that into a creative art or a performance art, and kata is often the first casualty of such a misunderstanding.

Martial arts are not about being asthetically pleasing while practicing combat-ish movements. Martial arts are any method or system or technique or body of techniques that, through diligent practice and hard work, develop a skill in some form of combat. That can be empty-hand or with weapons, both modern or ancient.

 

[Langenschwert]

2005 called. They want their thread back. One of the first uses of the term "martial art" in the English language can be found in my signature below. It refers to rapier fencing. So yes, weapon arts are martial arts. Even firearms.

I'd be wary of using popular opinion on defining a technical field. For example, I'm trained as a jazz musician. Popular sentiment might define such stuff as Kenny G or Glenn Miller as jazz, but they are only superficially related to jazz when you get right down to it. If Kenny G is jazz, then Madonna is death metal.

It's pretty nonsensical to define iaido, kenjutsu or HEMA as "not martial arts" .

Or just see my post from 2011 earlier in this thread.