How do we define "senior" in the martial arts...

[Cruentus]

I was wondering how some of you define "senior" in the arts. In other words, "master so-and-so is my senior..." Also, how do you differentiate between Senior and Peer.

Here's what I have figured out so far. These 4 categories seem to be the possible ways of defining who is senior.

#1. Age (The older person is the senior)

#2. Time in a specific art (He started Modern Arnis 3 years before me so he is my senior).

#3. Time in Arts in general (We've both been in Modern Arnis for 15 years, but I started TKD 5 years before him so I am his senior).

#4. Rank (He is one belt higher then me, so he is my senior).

I don't think that Skill is a way to define "senior" though. I think that senior status isn't based on who can kick who's ***, but rather these other factors.

To play it safe, for me if someone fits "Senior" status in any one of those categories, then I consider them my senior. I have, in the past, made the mistake of calling people my peers because they were in one sense, but they were older then me and weren't in another sense, so they were offended. So, to play it safe and not to offend, I call anyone who fits the 4 categories my senior. I have no problem with this because I am very young for my rank/time in, but because of my age I do not feel "senior" to anyone who is older then me.

By definition, most of my clients and group members are my seniors. I call them clients rather then "students," because its odd to me to call someone "my student" when they are older then me, or especially for some of my members who have been in martial arts longer then me. They train with me, but have been in the arts longer then I have. So, I feel that we are all students; I just happened to be the leader of my group and they are my clients or members.

Anyways...how do you all feel about or define this issue?

Paul

 

[Mark Lynn]

Paul

I have always refered to people who are senior in much the same way as you except for the age factor. Outside of the school, class, etc. etc. they are my senior but in the class, I don't refer to them as such. Generally I don't make much of a distinction about it at all cause it's generally obvious that they are older than I (although now in my lower to mid 40's having people older than I in a class is becoming rarer and rarer ).

One of my best friends (and one of my main work out partners) is my senior in my instructors dojo, he holds seniority in that system as well as age and time in the arts. Whenever I refer to him in talking with others I always identify him as such (my senior in the dojo), however I am his instructor in Arnis. We don't get into the old who's senior in rank to who or whatever, it isn't an issue. He knows that I have the experience in the FMA systems and I know he has the experience in Kenpo, TKD, Tai Chi, and some other stuff. We just consider each other peers and friends in the arts.

When I go to check out a class/school I generally try and leave rank out of it and look at it that everyone there is my senior in that school. In time skill can show that you have been in the arts a while, people will know.

Mark

 

[TigerWoman]

I have a difficult position as regards to seniority. Since I'm 55, that beats everybody in the age category although I would rather be younger in this art of TKD. Seniority is granted if you test, even if you haven't completely passed the test. I have one break left to pass for 2nd dan. Also, "when" you test determines seniority according to my master's rules. Well, here I am, pretty much in limbo and there is a 1st dan, a guy, who has been in the same organization probably for twenty years but never testing. He is awesome in skill but let his memory go in regards to forms. So, he came to class one night and I was the highest rank, since I tested for 2nd. I didn't feel right taking 1st place-lead the class, nor right taking over his class (which he stopped teaching). So I told my instructor/master that if he were to come to teach that class, I would step aside and help if needed. My instructor got angry with me for insisting the other man be first, but that's the way I felt since I really didn't get 2nd dan, yet. Besides he really had seniority IMO. ?? TW

 

[Paul B]

Interesting,

I recognise seniority by:

1. If you have been in the style longer than I have,you are a senior. Even if you quit and I keep going,you will always be my senior.

2. If it's the same art,different style,same rank,and I come for a visit...you are my senior...I am "new" to your style.

3. If we tested at the same time for the same rank and you are older then I am,you are my senior.

4. If you are of a different art entirely,it's a matter of rank,then age,then ummm...yeah.

I don't really get caught up in the whole rank who's superior to whom stuff,there is always something to learn from everyone. I'd wear a white belt all the time if I could get away with it.....

 

[MJS]

I'd have to go with #'s 2 & 4.

Mike

 

[Ceicei]

I'm older than most of the instructors at my dojo, but because of their skill and experience, they are "Seniors" to me. I am not yet an instructor (although I do, as a brown belt, assist them with teaching the beginning rank students). I define "senior" not by age, but rather by time and experience within the style.

- Ceicei

 

[James Kovacich]

I was wondering how some of you define "senior" in the arts. In other words, "master so-and-so is my senior..." Also, how do you differentiate between Senior and Peer.

Here's what I have figured out so far. These 4 categories seem to be the possible ways of defining who is senior.

#1. Age (The older person is the senior)

#2. Time in a specific art (He started Modern Arnis 3 years before me so he is my senior).

#3. Time in Arts in general (We've both been in Modern Arnis for 15 years, but I started TKD 5 years before him so I am his senior).

#4. Rank (He is one belt higher then me, so he is my senior).

I don't think that Skill is a way to define "senior" though. I think that senior status isn't based on who can kick who's ***, but rather these other factors.

To play it safe, for me if someone fits "Senior" status in any one of those categories, then I consider them my senior. I have, in the past, made the mistake of calling people my peers because they were in one sense, but they were older then me and weren't in another sense, so they were offended. So, to play it safe and not to offend, I call anyone who fits the 4 categories my senior. I have no problem with this because I am very young for my rank/time in, but because of my age I do not feel "senior" to anyone who is older then me.

By definition, most of my clients and group members are my seniors. I call them clients rather then "students," because its odd to me to call someone "my student" when they are older then me, or especially for some of my members who have been in martial arts longer then me. They train with me, but have been in the arts longer then I have. So, I feel that we are all students; I just happened to be the leader of my group and they are my clients or members.

Anyways...how do you all feel about or define this issue?

Paul

I think all of your examples are good but for me in todays martial art world there are your examples for everyday studio training and one more.

For those who are "Senior Martial Artist" amongst all martial artists.
My mentor is my "Senior Advisor" for my group.
http://www.scientific-streetfighting.com/advisors.html

That was the status that first came to mind when I read the topic but I actually saw it in a differant light after reading your examples.

 

[Miles]

...
I recognise seniority by:

1. If you have been in the style longer than I have,you are a senior. Even if you quit and I keep going,you will always be my senior.

2. If it's the same art,different style,same rank,and I come for a visit...you are my senior...I am "new" to your style.

3. If we tested at the same time for the same rank and you are older then I am,you are my senior.

4. If you are of a different art entirely,it's a matter of rank,then age,then ummm...yeah.

I don't really get caught up in the whole rank who's superior to whom stuff,there is always something to learn from everyone. I'd wear a white belt all the time if I could get away with it.....

Agreed! If someone started the day before I did, they are always going to be my senior, regardless of age, art, or rank.

Miles

 

[DarrenJew]

When I started learning at age 13... anyone who started before me was my senior. We were also expected to respect people by age, not as a practitioner of the style, but just as common courtesy to anyone who was elder to one's self, just as would be in our own family.

I'll be 44 this year.... its been quite a long time ago.

 

[kenpo tiger]

I define "senior" not by age, but rather by time and experience within the style.

- Ceicei
And I agree.

That's what 'sensei' means - literally, one who came before, and, more commonly, teacher.

I have more time in martial arts than many people senior to me in my school, yet they are my seniors because of their time within our style. I have no qualms about asking someone chronologically younger than I am ( as many are in the upper ranks of my school) for advice on a tech or a form if they are my senior in this respect. At almost 52 years of age, does it really matter?

TW - I would do exactly as you did. Respect for time in. KT

 

[terryl965]

My seniors are those that have more time in then me, also those that have a legitament higher rank then me. Too many self worth newbies!!!!

 

[dearnis.com]

I think in terms of Dan Anderson...senior master....old dude... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


(Sorry Dan.....couldn't resist)

 

[The Prof]

For me it's age first and rank second. However, it seems like only yesterday it was rank first and age second. It's amazing what having a Medicare card can do the the mind.

 

[shane23ss]

To me, what makes some one "Senior" is rank within the system. I had one instructor in my school that was younger than me, but I considered him my Senior. I usually don't consider some one of my same rank, in my same system, as Senior to me unless that person was awarded their rank a good while before me. Even in that aspect, if they were awarded their rank before me, but I am closer to getting promoted than they are, I don't consider them Senior. As far as some one from a different system, I've never really thought about it. Of course if I'm a 1st BB and they are 5th or 6th, they would be my Senior. I am a 1st BB in Kenpo and currently train with 1st BB in TSD. He has been a BB longer than me, but he says he considers me his Senior. To me, this is a tough question if you are talking outside of Kenpo.

 

[pete]

everyone is my senior, in that i may learn from them.

it may be taking an appreciation for the beginners mind, seeing the forest through all those trees, or just seeing and applying something differently. it could also be seeing what not to do, and learning what to avoid.

regardless, respect is given to everyone on the mat, regardless of your perception of hierarchy and whether or not respect is returned in favor.

time is not always a good indicator of skill either; level of effort and quality of instruction during that time are key. then you have some with expertise in another system that are beginners in your art, that may have much to offer once you get by the parochial jargon.

age, well, its kinda meaningless, other than maturity and ability to communicate which are often not products of age alone.

and rank... its not what you show, but what you know (nwo who coulda said that?)

pete