How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
17,536
Reaction score
4,428
Location
Pueblo West, CO
Folks, is there any chance this thread could go back to something that remotely resembles the original topic?
 

elder999

El Oso de Dios!
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
9,880
Reaction score
1,394
Location
Where the hills have eyes.,and it's HOT!
Folks, is there any chance this thread could go back to something that remotely resembles the original topic?
Sure. As I said in this post, last month:

So, about me-I studied tae kwon do under Duk Sung Son and Kyokushin under Oyama Shigeru......at the same time. That came about with both teachers consent because I was attending boarding school, and because I had noted that both sets of kata were almost the same. There were some differences, and some kata in each that had no counterpart in the other, but they were mostly the same. At 15, this was a puzzlement, what with both teachers pretty much saying they didn't know why (when, in fact, they likely did), but 40 years later, it is not at all.

The short answer is Anko Itosu

Toyama studied under Anko Itosu before founding Shudokan.

Kenwa Mabuni studied under Anko Itosu before founding Shito Ryu

Funakoshi studied under Anko Itosu before founding Shotokan.

Anko Itosu invented the Pinan kata.



So, what did tae kwon do in the 50's and 60's (and 70's, sometimes 80's, and in some places like Texas today?) look like?

An awful lot like some Korean gentlemen doing Shotokan karate.
rolling.gif

(Or, at least, an awful lot like some Korean gentlemen doing Pinan kata....)

EDIT: I mean, that really is the answer. End of discussion.
 
Last edited:
OP
L

Laplace_demon

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
682
Reaction score
10
An awful lot like some Korean gentlemen doing Shotokan karate.
rolling.gif

(Or, at least, an awful lot like some Korean gentlemen doing Pinan kata....)

EDIT: I mean, that really is the answer. End of discussion.

And what do you think it looks like today? You make it sound as if it's somehow radically different.
 

Drose427

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
927
Reaction score
251
Location
USA
And what do you think it looks like today? You make it sound as if it's somehow radically different.

other than the fact aside from traditional styles (which tend to be more Tang Soo Do) that the WTF nor the ITF do Pinan Katas?

Or even look like theyre doing any Shuri-Te branch forms?
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
17,536
Reaction score
4,428
Location
Pueblo West, CO
And what do you think it looks like today? You make it sound as if it's somehow radically different.

It does, in fact, look radically different. It might not be something a newbie to the arts would notice, but to the experienced eye, they do not look all that similar.
 
OP
L

Laplace_demon

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
682
Reaction score
10
It does, in fact, look radically different. It might not be something a newbie to the arts would notice, but to the experienced eye, they do not look all that similar.

Newbie? Didn't you reject that the WTF and KKW TKD are intertwined, that is one and the same? Yet the WTF headquarter is Kukkiwon. Kukkiwon - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Nobody could possibly take you seriously in a study of comparisons.
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
17,536
Reaction score
4,428
Location
Pueblo West, CO

Why yes, newbie. I think you'll find that pretty much everybody will agree that a yellow belt (that's 9th geup in our school, 8th in others) with a few months of training is what would be called a newbie.

Didn't you reject that the WTF and KKW TKD are intertwined, that is one and the same?

Intertwined? I've never said otherwise. The historical record shows a fair bit of overlap between their administrative staff, and the WTF was specifically founded to promote and oversee a small specific area of KKW taekwondo. So there's no doubt that they're intertwined.
They're certainly NOT the same thing though, as anybody not too stupid to walk across the street without a guide can readily confirm.

Yet the WTF headquarter is Kukkiwon. Kukkiwon - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Well, no. Perhaps it's a reading comprehension problem?
The Kukkiwon promotes itself as the Headquarters for all TKD anywhere in the world. This is in keeping with their Borg-like attitude.
The WTF promotes itself as the group that promotes, organizes, and oversees a particular subset of the Art of TKD as it is used in a particular type of freesparring.

Here's a MAP showing the route from the Kukkiwon to the WTF headquarters. While both are in Seoul, the KKW is in Yeoksam-dong and the WTF is located in Samseong-dong. They are, roughly, an hour apart by car.

I'm sorry if this is difficult for you to understand, but it's really not that complicated.

Nobody could possibly take you seriously in a study of comparisons.

Fortunately for my ability to sleep at night, your opinion on this subject would seem to be about as accurate and informed as your other opinions. Pretty much completely and totally wrong, in simple terms.
 
OP
L

Laplace_demon

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
682
Reaction score
10
An awful lot like some Korean gentlemen doing Shotokan karate.
rolling.gif

(Or, at least, an awful lot like some Korean gentlemen doing Pinan kata....)

Now how can you say that! Have you no shame... Don't you see the "Korean spirit"?
 

Gnarlie

Master of Arts
Joined
Dec 13, 2011
Messages
1,913
Reaction score
442
Location
Germany
Newbie? Didn't you reject that the WTF and KKW TKD are intertwined, that is one and the same? Yet the WTF headquarter is Kukkiwon. Kukkiwon - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Nobody could possibly take you seriously in a study of comparisons.

The Kukkiwon is the World Taekwondo Headquarters. As in the technical, educational and administrative headquarters for Taekwondo around the world.

The World Taekwondo Federation Headquarters, i. e. the headquarters of the governing body for sport Taekwondo, has a totally different address.

And the world Headquarters always has an s.

I'd take DD's opinion seriously any day of the week.
 

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
30,907
Reaction score
5,131
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
It does, in fact, look radically different. It might not be something a newbie to the arts would notice, but to the experienced eye, they do not look all that similar.

Heck t looks different today than what it did when I trained it in the mid 70s. I don't see locks, I don't see takedowns, I don't see in close fight training, etc. I saw all that when I trained it.
 

Jaeimseu

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Jun 19, 2011
Messages
915
Reaction score
265
Location
Austin, Texas, USA
Newbie? Didn't you reject that the WTF and KKW TKD are intertwined, that is one and the same? Yet the WTF headquarter is Kukkiwon. Kukkiwon - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Nobody could possibly take you seriously in a study of comparisons.
At one time both offices were housed at Kukkiwon. At one time Kim Un Yong was the head of both organizations. This is no longer the case and hasn't been for some time.
 
OP
L

Laplace_demon

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
682
Reaction score
10
Heck t looks different today than what it did when I trained it in the mid 70s. I don't see locks, I don't see takedowns, I don't see in close fight training, etc. I saw all that when I trained it.

I can only speak for my club, but we`ve had at most very basic joint manipulations, briefly. It's up to the instructor of each TDK club if you get any training outside of striking. I have asked elder black belts and they have confirmed that this is all there is to it here. I am quite happy with a great deal of mitts practice though. Things where you can actually try out your techniques on targets is very important to me, given how restrictive the sparring rules are.

At one time both offices were housed at Kukkiwon. At one time Kim Un Yong was the head of both organizations. This is no longer the case and hasn't been for some time.

Aha. That's why I got confused.
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
17,536
Reaction score
4,428
Location
Pueblo West, CO
Heck t looks different today than what it did when I trained it in the mid 70s. I don't see locks, I don't see takedowns, I don't see in close fight training, etc. I saw all that when I trained it.

Depends on the school. You see all of that in our school. It's not the primary focus, but all of that has always been a part of TJD.
 

Gnarlie

Master of Arts
Joined
Dec 13, 2011
Messages
1,913
Reaction score
442
Location
Germany
Heck t looks different today than what it did when I trained it in the mid 70s. I don't see locks, I don't see takedowns, I don't see in close fight training, etc. I saw all that when I trained it.
I still see all of those things. I have had people join our classes after training mainly sport elsewhere, with the expectation of more of the same here. I love the look they get when we go to in-fighting and SD stuff.
 

oftheherd1

Senior Master
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
4,685
Reaction score
817
...
Here's a MAP showing the route from the Kukkiwon to the WTF headquarters. While both are in Seoul, the KKW is in Yeoksam-dong and the WTF is located in Samseong-dong. They are, roughly, an hour apart by car.
...

.

A beltway around Seoul? Who knew.
 

TrueJim

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jun 21, 2014
Messages
1,006
Reaction score
370
Location
Virginia
More "Fun with Maps"...

This Google Street View drives you onto the Kukkiwon campus. Click on it and drive straight ahead. (Sadly, the Google camera car didn't drive very far onto the campus.)

Google Maps
 
OP
L

Laplace_demon

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
682
Reaction score
10
So Dirty Dog was wrong about the the past at least. Saying that they often overlapped is an understatement.

Why did some ITF black belts later do KKW as well? Supposing the training is fairly traditional, what point is there? I personally don't think like KKWs patterns at all, and would find it hard to see why anyone would prefer them over the Chang Hon ones. But leaving that aside, why make a switch at all?
 
OP
L

Laplace_demon

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
682
Reaction score
10
Isn't it like switching between Toyota and Lexus? Not saying which is which:)
 

TrueJim

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jun 21, 2014
Messages
1,006
Reaction score
370
Location
Virginia
So Dirty Dog was wrong about the the past at least. Saying that they often overlapped is an understatement.

I don't know where you're getting that from. I don't see anything that anybody has said that negates Dirty Dog's statement. Historically there was a lot of overlap between the Kukkiwon and the WTF in terms of staffing and administration, for a while sharing even the same location. In other threads on this forum we've even discussed how for a while the WTF was issuing dan certificates! From what I've read, even to this day there's a lot of movement (and wrangling!) between the Kukkiwon, the WTF, and the KTA....which makes sense given the fact that they're all located in the same city.

Just as a matter of conjecture, it seems to me that if you're a person working at (say) the KTA (or the Kukkiwon or the WTF) and (say) want a different job, a promotion, or just a different commute, it stands to reason you'd look to one of the other organizations as an option. It makes sense that the same people working in the same industry in the same city are going to shuffle from one organization to the next. I don't think that's true for just taekwondo...it's pretty much true for any industry.

I personally don't think like KKWs patterns at all, and would find it hard to see why anyone would prefer them over the Chang Hon ones.

Personally, I think the Kukkiwon patterns are brilliant:
  • The footwork of each floor pattern spells out either a trigram from the I Ching, or a Chinese character
  • The poomsae tries to incorporate techniques that reflect the meaning of each trigram or character. My favorite example is the Low Cross Block in Taegeuk Chil Jang ("mountain"): stopping the kick, rather than deflecting it...yup, that's what a mountain would do, stop it! Unyielding.
  • At the same time, the poomsae build upon each other nicely, incorporating new techniques at each level.
I have tons of respect for General Choi and the Chang Hon style, but personally I like the layers of meaning -- like movie easter eggs -- buried in the Kukkiwon forms. It's obvious that a ton of thought went into those forms.
 
Top