Honey-trapping: Testing fidelity, trust, and respect

[Ceicei]

I had a discussion with some friends the other day about fidelity. Some feel that divorce rates are at a dangerous level because people go into marriage with high expectations and not enough realization that marriage is not easy, it takes hard work, compromise, and mutual trust to succeed. I agree to a large degree with that assessment. With this kind of understanding, marriages (in theory) have a much better chance of lasting longer.

There are others who feel that it is important to "test" their marriage. While the premise of testing is understandable, I think this approach may encourage distrust. However, if a marriage has already come to a point when one or both spouses question the value of their fidelity, finding a way to work together to resolve their problems may be a better way than resorting to a test. Your thoughts?

I saw this article (from London) that discusses a test called "honey trapping". I am sure the United States has its own version.

Martinez is a "honey trapper" -- or as he likes to call himself, an "integrity tester" -- one of a growing team of private detectives who are hired by wives, husbands or partners to test the loyalty of their loved ones.

http://www.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUSL132980220080213?sp=true

Do you feel that expectations of marriages have changed with today's society? Would "honey trapping" be a valid way of finding out whether fidelity is continuing? What is your measure of fidelity, trust, and respect for each other? If a problem crops up that questions fidelity, what would probably be among the better solution(s) to approach the problem?

- Ceicei

 

[bdparsons]

Fidelity in a marriage is a by-product of respect for your partner. If mutual respect is present then fidelity is never in question, by either partner.

Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[Kacey]

Do you feel that expectations of marriages have changed with today's society?

Yes, I do. The expectations of marriage, until very recently, was that it would last until 1 member of the couple died. While there were always provisions for divorce, or at least separation, for various reasons (abuse, infertility, etc.), and there were always people who just left a spouse without a divorce, people went into marriage expecting to stay married for life. That is no longer the case today, I don't think - prenuptial agreements may be good business, but they assume that the possibility, even the probability, of separation exists.

Would "honey trapping" be a valid way of finding out whether fidelity is continuing?

I don't really think so - there are too many situational variables inherent in the situation. The article states

The target must not be drunk, there must be no touching, and the relative attractiveness of the trapper to the target must be equal.

"It's got to be a fair test," he explains. "So we make sure that we don't set a very attractive honey trapper on a not so attractive target, and vice versa."

I understand the concept here - but attractiveness is a very subjective opinion.

I will also say that if the partner being "tested" is in a bar without the partner doing the "testing", that in itself is an indicator. Not that members of a couple need to go everywhere together (I think alone time is a necessity), but if one partner knows the other frequents a particular bar, restaurant, or other location available for "testing" often enough to recommend it, that in itself says there may be problems in the relationship. There may not be - but most happy couples don't spend significant amounts of time consistently apart for no reason. And the "honey trapper" interviewed admitted that their services are generally used by those who suspect a problem. I find an 80% failure rate among those tested to be incredibly high - so the people who are hiring this service are apparently suspicious for a reason.

What is your measure of fidelity, trust, and respect for each other?

The ability to discuss problems openly, honestly, and to the point of a reasonable resolution, demonstrating your respect for the other person and the other person's feelings... but then, I'm divorced, so what do I know? Except that the inability to do the preceding on my ex-husband's part would be a large part of why he's my ex-husband.

If a problem crops up that questions fidelity, what would probably be among the better solution(s) to approach the problem?

Talking - either between yourselves or with a therapist, priest/minister/rabbi or other qualified, objective third party. If you cannot approach your partner about suspected concerns, that by itself should be a red flag that something is wrong.

 

[grydth]

Sometimes a divorce can be a pretty profound teacher. I know.

Most of the year my (2d) wife and I live over 800 miles apart (one of those professional commuter marriages)........ cheating on either or both our parts would be totally easy....... and despicable.

You either love and honor the other person more than yourself, or you do not. You are either more than an animal in heat, or you are not.

If ever it's over, then just say so and walk. No reason to go out that way.

Just my 2c, the partial product of each of us having a prior divorce.

 

[Ceicei]

Grydth,

What's your opinion of "no-fault" divorces versus the old way of having to prove reason for petition? Some think the "no-fault" makes it a much easy out of relationships that otherwise could have lasted if the couples tried a bit harder. Would having these roadblocks [the need to prove] be a deterrent to filing for a divorce and promote a stronger focus on fidelity?

- Ceicei

 

[grydth]

Grydth,

What's your opinion of "no-fault" divorces versus the old way of having to prove reason for petition? Some think the "no-fault" makes it a much easy out of relationships that otherwise could have lasted if the couples tried a bit harder. Would having these roadblocks [the need to prove] be a deterrent to filing for a divorce and promote a stronger focus on fidelity?

- Ceicei

I'll take no fault.

If one or both of the people themselves in a marriage lack the loyalty, maturity, love and commitment, the government isn't going to supply those to them. That relationship is over, and long divorces tend to act as wealth transfer vehicles from families to the legal system.

I have one friend whose divorce cost $60,000...... wouldn't it be better to have that money go to the children? While lawyers enjoy themselves in court, families spending years trapped in the legal system feel as if they are in purgatory. Is it really a good thing, for society or the family, to have every piece of intimate dirty laundry, every private flaw aired in a public hearing?

The need for divorce grounds has spawned all types of disgusting - and often false - allegations and counter allegations. Once shocking allegations such as child and spousal abuse are now common place - and often phony, designed to get an advantage in court.

I had the next best way to end things when it became crystal clear (details omitted) that my marriage was over. We sat down, divided our own property and wrote out the separation terms for the lawyers.... we saved a small fortune, both got what we wanted out of a bad situation and walked away without the blood letting. It has worked to this very day for all of us.

 

[stickarts]

Great points made by all!
I think far too often many go into a marriage or a relationship focused too much on what they want out of it without enough thought as to what they are bringing into it.
In regard to "testing" a relationship, I know that for me that would damage my trust and respect for the other person. I think time is better spent on building trust which is at the core of a good relationship.
We always want what we feel we don't have. I think its a good habit to wake up every day and start the day by counting your blessings for what you do have.

 

[jks9199]

Lots of good topics here.

First, I think honeytrap-tests are despicable. If your relationship, whether married or not, is so fragile and full of mistrust that you need to hire someone to prove it -- you got bigger problems than setting up your significant other. My wife and I had a long distance relationship (as in several states apart) until we married. If we didn't trust each other, it wouldn't have worked. And it wouldn't have been worth the effort of making it "work", either. (This is a different question than the use of honeytraps in either criminal or national security investigation/intelligence gathering.) If you care about the relationship, instead of hiring a PI to test it -- spend the money with appropriate counselors. If you don't -- the writing's on the wall.

Have expectations of marriage and relationships changed? Absolutely. There was a time when many marriages were arranged or financial more than emotional in nature. Love and companionship grew (if they did) over time within the marriage, which was maintained "for the children" or for propriety. (Side note that just occurred to me for no good reason: There's been a decline in membership in the various fraternal lodges and societies like the Elks or Masons; could there be a connection?)

Today, marriage is (in theory) based on true love. But we simultaneously have a greater acceptance of divorce... I think a lot of people today are getting married without the relationship tools to make it work, and with the mindset that if it doesn't work, it's no big deal to get divorced. (I disagree strongly, for the record.) Others begin a marriage with unrealistic and unreasonable expectations that "everything will be fine" or that wedding rings and vows somehow will set aside or negate basic relationship issues... like mistrust. Marriage takes hard work. (I say with my whole 18 months experience.) It takes learning to communicate, to accept the others way of doing things, and it takes personal and interpersonal honesty.

As to divorce... No fault is a good thing; Grydth already outlined the reasons pretty well. There are too many silly games played to make the other party look bad. With that said -- there are times and places for at-fault divorce.

 

[newGuy12]

I have never been married, that is not my way to live, because I am very selfish, and lack the capacity to couple with someone in this way, but I will still chime in with thoughts.

You either love and honor the other person more than yourself, or you do not. You are either more than an animal in heat, or you are not.

Yes, this is it. This is the most important thing here. Also, you do not have to "stress test" the marriage as if it were a new computer, thrash the disks HARD and so forth, push the CPU to maximum and peg that sucker to see if something will break, you will then return the part to the vendor NOW rather than after the warranty. No, no. Life itself will stress test people and relationships enough.

As to divorce... No fault is a good thing; Grydth already outlined the reasons pretty well. There are too many silly games played to make the other party look bad. With that said -- there are times and places for at-fault divorce.

Never contest a divorce! Get a no-fault divorce. To do otherwise, is only to give all of the money to lawyers and to amplify bad feelings! It is a waste of time, money, and peace of mind!

Also, I am cynical -- VERY FEW people are developed to the point where they are honorable all of the time. MOST people have their price. Under the right conditions, anyone will compromise their values, it is only a matter of trial and error. People are not perfect, after all, its not possible to transcend your humanity, no matter how hard you try, people can only try to be the best they can, but will never be perfect. We are cursed in this way, all of us.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You know it really is interesting when talking about divorce. I have no one in my immediate family on both side's the wife's and mine that has been in a divorce. (and it extends way past just the immediate family as well) Why is that?

Well really it comes down to two things. Understanding of the commitment and the love that we have. I do not need to test my wife nor does she need to test me as we are in love and are committed to each other for life.

Now as to honey trapping, etc. Well if you are doing that then your marriage is over as you have lost respect and trust already. It is only a matter of time.

I think to many people go into marriage in an unrealistic fashion thinking they can change someone or that it will be a fairy tale. Marriage or any relationship requires effort from both. If their is love and commitment then the effort is easy.

 

[theletch1]

I think to many people go into marriage in an unrealistic fashion thinking they can change someone or that it will be a fairy tale. Marriage or any relationship requires effort from both. If their is love and commitment then the effort is easy.

You either love and honor the other person more than yourself, or you do not. You are either more than an animal in heat, or you are not.

Those are the most profound statements that I've seen. A marriage does require a great deal of effort but loving the other person more than yourself makes all that effort something you look forward to putting in.

 

[Sukerkin]

Given that the last figures I saw on infidelity showed that 40% of married women had an affair at one time or other and a slightly higher percentage of men (how does that work ?), 'honey trapping' is an excercise in self-fulfiling prophecy for a fair portion of the population.

For a person to have an affair does not make them less of a good person or even mean that they are going to leave their partner or have an affair again. I know a few couples one or the other of which has had an affair. In half of those cases the affair was a precursor to the relationship ending but, of course, that means half of the relationships survived.

Stress testing the relationship to see if it breaks is a foolish course of action given those facts. People would be far better off putting their efforts into finding out how they can build a life together.

I made a post a little while ago on a related issue in which I said something to the effect that people were developing a un-healthy habit of being "in love with being 'in love'". What I meant by this is that they mistake the couple of years of high hormones as being Love and when those hormones fade and are replaced with others they think the marriage is over. The reality is that the marriage is now run-in, to use an automotive analogy and, biologically, is ready to provide the core social unit for making a family.

The hormones that replace the sexually charged ones are ones that regulate a sense of 'comfort', routine and safety with your partner. If the relationship was founded solely on the feeling of the First Blush then it is going to struggle from then on as the fireworks die down and fireside cuddles become more prevalent.

That is why the old methods of courstship were so important - they allowed you to know a person before you ever got to the 'clothes shedding' stage and so you were not running for the divorce court because an unpleasant trait comes to light unexpectedly.

Anyhow, wandering off track a bit (no surprise there ).

If my missus had an affair, for whatever reason, that was not a first step in leaving me, then I would not want to know about it. I can happily live with the possibility that it might happen but my personality type is such that my trust, once given, is total; which means that if it is broken then that which breached my trust will never be forgiven. Also, I am likewise unsuited to having an affair myself because of my inveterate honesty - I would be compelled by my conscience to 'confess all' if I ever did, so I never will {small print proviso just in case ... Never say Never :lol:}.

So, conclusions?

Honey trapping is a barmy idea and a sure sign that one partner has serious issues themself.

Fidelity is very important but the appearance of fidelity is even more so as a one-off 'straying' can be a relationship killer when it need not be.

Even given the high 'rate' of affairs, trust is important and an absence of trust can, ironically, actually lead to someone having an affair.

Respect, with it's concommitant associated feelings, is core to maintaining proper love in a relationship but the vital thing, as has been touched on by others, is to develop the mindset that your partners happyness is a key factor in your own. If I can make my missus laugh, smile or just snuggle up to me and tell me that she loves me, then I am a hapy man.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I had a discussion with some friends the other day about fidelity. Some feel that divorce rates are at a dangerous level because people go into marriage with high expectations and not enough realization that marriage is not easy, it takes hard work, compromise, and mutual trust to succeed. I agree to a large degree with that assessment. With this kind of understanding, marriages (in theory) have a much better chance of lasting longer.

There are others who feel that it is important to "test" their marriage. While the premise of testing is understandable, I think this approach may encourage distrust. However, if a marriage has already come to a point when one or both spouses question the value of their fidelity, finding a way to work together to resolve their problems may be a better way than resorting to a test. Your thoughts?

I saw this article (from London) that discusses a test called "honey trapping". I am sure the United States has its own version.

http://www.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUSL132980220080213?sp=true

Do you feel that expectations of marriages have changed with today's society? Would "honey trapping" be a valid way of finding out whether fidelity is continuing? What is your measure of fidelity, trust, and respect for each other? If a problem crops up that questions fidelity, what would probably be among the better solution(s) to approach the problem?

- Ceicei

Do you feel that expectations of marriages have changed with today's society?

Yes. As Kacey and others have mentioned it is no longer for life or until Death do us part. There is a term called Starter Marriages in the psychological fields.

Some people get married to move out of their parents house.

Some people get married because all their other friends are married.

Some people get married because all their other friends are having children.

Some people get married because they fell time catching up with them.

Those that try to believe they are getting married for all the right reasons do not talk about issues such as children or money and other or religion. If they do many tell the other one want they think they want to hear so they can get them married and change them.

It was just after high school I knew this girl. her parents lived together. They were divorced. They both could live in the same house with each other and share a bedroom but it did not work when they were married. Why I asked one night. The mom replied that I can put up with certain things from him as long as he is not my husband. My husband would be like this, ..., and she proceeded to describe a person that I do not think could or can exist. The father was in the room at the same time (* playing me in chess *) and he replied, If I get mad at her nagging me or trying to change me or spending habits, I can sleep on the couch or get in my car and drive until I feel better. This way allows me to be here for our kids, and for me to leave when I cannot handle it for short periods of time. (* this is a single example not a generalization *)


Would "honey trapping" be a valid way of finding out whether fidelity is continuing?

No. Not in my opinion. There really is no good way to find out. Either there is trust or this is not. If there is questions talk to them about it. Or try to see what could be causing the problem.


What is your measure of fidelity, trust, and respect for each other?

When I am in a relationship it is absolute. If I am in the relationship I have trust for them. If I do not have trust then I am not in the relationship. I travel for work. I go out with friends. Lots of chances to be exposed to temptations. But, I would not take advantage of these possibilities. I even restrained during my divorce, as I was still married. Something that mot could not understand. But it my path to walk.


If a problem crops up that questions fidelity, what would probably be among the better solution(s) to approach the problem?

I know what I did. The ex and I were not having sex by my choice as there were too many other problems. Mixing sex and or a child into the mix would not have helped. She ended back on birth control. I found them by accident as I was updating the car insurance in my ex's car. I was putting the new paper work into her envelope in the glove box when I found her Birth control pills. Funny thing was she had them in her car and no in the house. She took my car for some reason I still cannot remember. She only would be on birth control when we were married if we were having sex. As we were not having sex and the prescription was new, I assumed the worst. I wondered how to approach the situation.

I asked her to go see a psychologist with me. She stated I could as I was the only one who had any problems in this relationship.

I asked if there was any hope for us. She could not answer.

I then asked if we should get a divorce. She replied I could not get a divorce. She was mad at the idea. I was confused by this idea.

I was online later that night, playing a game (* not well as I was distracted by my day *). I had dial up at the time. I dropped and could not get a connection again. I went upstairs to check the line and when I picked up the phone she was it with her boyfriend in the beginning stages of phone sex.

I went outside and vomited.

I went and found a lawyer and filed for a divorce.

The rest is even an uglier story.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I had a discussion with some friends the other day about fidelity. Some feel that divorce rates are at a dangerous level because people go into marriage with high expectations and not enough realization that marriage is not easy, it takes hard work, compromise, and mutual trust to succeed. I agree to a large degree with that assessment. With this kind of understanding, marriages (in theory) have a much better chance of lasting longer.

There are others who feel that it is important to "test" their marriage. While the premise of testing is understandable, I think this approach may encourage distrust. However, if a marriage has already come to a point when one or both spouses question the value of their fidelity, finding a way to work together to resolve their problems may be a better way than resorting to a test. Your thoughts?

I saw this article (from London) that discusses a test called "honey trapping". I am sure the United States has its own version.

http://www.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUSL132980220080213?sp=true

Do you feel that expectations of marriages have changed with today's society? Would "honey trapping" be a valid way of finding out whether fidelity is continuing? What is your measure of fidelity, trust, and respect for each other? If a problem crops up that questions fidelity, what would probably be among the better solution(s) to approach the problem?

- Ceicei

Single now; but, if I found out that happened to me I would divorce her.
Sean

 

[AceHBK]

Single now; but, if I found out that happened to me I would divorce her.
Sean

I agree.

This is why I believe prostitutuion should be legal...lol For those guys paying all that money in lawyers, child support, alimony, etc...a prostitute would have been a cheaper way to go.

All jokes aside....a prenup is necessary in todays times. Just like having a condom...rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it.

And honey trapping is nothing more than playing games and if you gotta do that you dont need to be getting married. Most people are smart enough to not put themselves in situations where they could be led astray and here you got some people doing their best to tempt them in a effort to see if they will stray. Sometimes u get what you ask for...gotta be careful. Before you know it you will end up in a episode of the tv show Cheaters. lol

I think people get married for certain reasons that are usually selfish but just dont have the heart to tell that person those real reasons. If you wanna get married for money and security then say so.