Honest discussion wanted plz no flaming

OldGhost

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I wanted to bring up a few questions but I don't want to cause a flame war or come off as starting trouble and hurting ego’s. I am a former student of Parkers Kenpo, and dabbled in other styles many years ago. Granted I never made it to black belt in any of the systems I studied highest I got was green belt in Parkers Kenpo. I have been away from training for a long time now and I find my self leaving work and spending way too much time on the couch rotting in front of the TV. I really want to find a system that has real world practicality, I understand this is not 300 BC and people don't walk around with swords and sticks throwing down challenges. And that it's going to be hard to test any fighting system for mysticism vs real use on the streets. But also in today's real world the threats people face have changed a lot. Many would be threats have guns or at the least a knife. Not counting the drunk idiot in a club or the loud road rage moron trying to sucker me into a confrontation. I try to Cary my 45 as often as I can and it changes me in a huge way when armed. I become mr. Super nice because of the huge responsibility that goes with being armed. And that's really, really not the direction I'm going with this.

As someone that's not an expert in any way shape or form in any martial arts style. But wanting to weed through the Mysticism and I'm not knocking martial arts in anyway. But every where I look, forums, YouTube, random websites seems all I see any more people bashing all styles as useless. Or I see people say X style is better than Y style or this style is a joke because the instructors take a 1 day class and get licensed. It's truly hard right now as a new guy coming back to decide on a style but myself I am torn I know every time I was training I spent a lot of time developing muscle memory. I spent a lot of time doing forms and sets, I worked on basics, foot position, stances. I was pretty decent at the material I had learned up to that point. But I noticed myself and everyone I ever watched spar all the forms, sets, body position, controlling height, depth, all that goes out the window. It's two people using limited basics to try to hit the other person while not getting hit yourself. Seems like the basics help in a street fight but past the basic snap kick, basic punches and some decent blocking skills that seems like the extent of what you would use to protect yourself unless knocked to the ground. Then some basic ground skills would help a lot to help you get back standing.

Not I have never been lucky enough to watch very high level people, 5th 6th Dan and even higher people with 15 and more years in a system spar. I have seen them show techs on a willing target showing ideal phase, and what if phase, adding, rearranging,removing parts of multiple strung together techs. Maybe I am missing something I know it's not going to be like on tv one person standing there ground and just totally shutting down an attacker.

I really want to learn a system that will work in real world situations, pumping gas guy puts a gun in your face. You can't run that's not an option, my weapon due to Current TX law is concealed and inaccessible while a gun is pointed at my face. The person really seems agitated likely to shoot at any second it's not ideal to try and fight this person off but better to die trying to survive then on your knees begging. I really want to study a system that would give me a better than 50% chance to make it home from an encounter like this. It may sound far fetched but turn on the news happens all the time.
 

kuniggety

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I'm a huge proponent of BJJ and judo. That being said, I think Krav Maga, RBSD (reality based self defense), or straight up boxing might be right up your alley. Krav Maga teaches a little of everything: striking, grappling, knife/firearm disarms, etc. RBSD is obviously very self-defense oriented... How to examine a scenario, self defense moves, etc. boxing pays huge dividends in return of investment for the amount of time you train. I'm not a hapkido expert but I know they do a lot of the merging of striking with grappling too.
 

WaterGal

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Gun and knife disarming is, at best, hugely risky and usually doesn't work. If a guy's just trying to steal your wallet, your best self-defense is to give it to him. Now, if he's trying to actually murder you, or to kidnap your kid who's in the car or something like that, you should try the risky move, because it's better than the alternative, but otherwise.... just go along with what he wants and try to remember identifying information about him the police can use to track him down.
 

hoshin1600

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I really want to find a system that has real world practicality,
this is probably the number 1 question on this sight. lets look at this from a different perspective.
your asking the wrong question. to rephrase what you wrote .."what system will make me an effective fighter in the real world"?
that is not the correct way of looking at this, rather the question should be "what system can i train in and become effective in fighting"?
there is a subtle difference and the answer is, all of them. it is not the system's responsibility to make you effective it is yours. the system gives you the frame work of understanding and it is up to you to become effective within that framework,
 

Hanzou

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I'm a huge proponent of BJJ and judo. That being said, I think Krav Maga, RBSD (reality based self defense), or straight up boxing might be right up your alley. Krav Maga teaches a little of everything: striking, grappling, knife/firearm disarms, etc. RBSD is obviously very self-defense oriented... How to examine a scenario, self defense moves, etc. boxing pays huge dividends in return of investment for the amount of time you train. I'm not a hapkido expert but I know they do a lot of the merging of striking with grappling too.

Gotta agree with this. Bjj first, and Judo if you can't find a Bjj place. The only reason I would place those arts ahead of stuff like Krav and RBSD systems is that its pretty hard to find legit Krav and RBSD schools, whereas almost all Bjj or Judo places tend to be pretty legit.
 

Buka

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You are bound by whatever places are within a reasonable/convienent driving distance to your home and/or work. Anything else just won't work.

Go check them all out, spend a couple nights at each one watching, see which one seems the most enjoyable.

Good luck, bro, hope it all works out for you.
 

JowGaWolf

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I know every time I was training I spent a lot of time developing muscle memory. I spent a lot of time doing forms and sets, I worked on basics, foot position, stances.
All of this is critical and important in martial arts.

But I noticed myself and everyone I ever watched spar all the forms, sets, body position, controlling height, depth, all that goes out the window. It's two people using limited basics to try to hit the other person while not getting hit yourself.
Learning the forms and learning how to use the forms in a fight are 2 different things. You have to dig deep and trust the technique 100%, then you'll need to actually try to use the techniques when you spar. You'll probably get hit in the head a few times but it's all part of learning how to correctly deploy the technique.
Here's the discussion I started that covers this issue. You can actually see me work with this exact issue with some of the students in my class.

Seems like the basics help in a street fight but past the basic snap kick, basic punches and some decent blocking skills that seems like the extent of what you would use to protect yourself unless knocked to the ground. Then some basic ground skills would help a lot to help you get back standing.
If you want to use a technique for fighting then you have to practice that technique in free sparring. This will help you to grasp a better understanding of a technique, how to use it, when to use it, and how to deploy it successfully. Start with the easiest technique for you to use and work your way up to the more advance techniques.

It's two people using limited basics to try to hit the other person while not getting hit yourself.
If you are more focused with not being hit then you aren't focused on delivering the technique. Accept that you will get hit during a fight. You'll be ok as long as you avoid taking solid power punch.

The only way to learn how to use techniques in a real fight is to use those techniques in sparring.. Remember sparring isn't about winning. It's about learning how to use the technique. The techniques aren't going to pop out on their own, you'll have willing use them just like one willingly uses a punch or a kick.
 

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I am just going to answer this from a personal perspective which could be reasonable or stupid, so take ot for it's worth.

The other folks have touched on a lot of important points here. If you peruse the forums for a bit you will find a lot of people that are concerned with self defense will put a lot of emphasis on the non- physical skills such as avoidance, verbal de-escalation etc, as for the most part being more important than the physical skills which I wholeheartedly agreed with.

As for the physical skills, I think most any MA can teach you valuable skills that can be useful. You will see a lot of striking arts vs grappling arts arguments etc. Each have their pros and cons.
The above advice about sparring is invaluable. Even when you are sparring with a limiting rule set it will still teach you distance, timing, getting hit, breathing while fighting, being agile……things that most people have no skills in whatsoever, thereby giving you an advantage.

I like training MA in general for the fun and exercise etc of it, but eventually would like to feel comfortable to be able to use it in the rare event of a SD situation. I currently train TKD, one of the much maligned arts out there, as far as "only sport", " not useful for SD" etc. goes. And honestly it is a mixed bag. We learn SD techniques. We do not practice these techniques in what I would call a realistic way. Some of them are junk, but some of them I think would be valuable if trained properly, which I fully intend to do with some people outside of class to see what works and what doesn't.
OTOH we do spar…..hard... (albeit, under a very limiting set of rules, WTF rules). That teaches me foot work, speed, watching your opponent, being aware, being agile…in general a useful set of skills.

The school I go to works for me for a number of different reasons and so while it's not 100% of what I ultimately want my MA training to be, I think about what's missing and I will work to fill in these gaps as much as I can, at the same time appreciating what's worthwhile. In the absence of having unlimited time (small kids) and unlimited funds (duh) that'll have to do.
There is a pretty good RBSD school in my area and I really want to train there to get some different perspectives but life just won't allow that right now…..maybe in the future.

So after all that drivel: find a school in your area that allows you to train regularly, that you like, keep an open mind about what's taught and complement deficiencies as much as your life allows you to do.
 

DaveB

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Personally I would go for Krav Maga based on the brief you've given.

Any martial art will do if you are willing to put the work in, but I don't completely agree with Hoshin. Ultimately what makes an art effective is the training and training is up to the individual teacher and student. However a student just starting can't be expected to know how to guide himself. Nor does he expect to pay for classes and give up time to not have his needs met.

A good way to ensure effectiveness is to supplement a martial art with a combat sport.

That being said I think your fear is unreasonable and that it is your fear that should be addressed first and foremost. Our emotional attitude and bearing is as much a means of protecting ourselves as learning to punch and kick. Bad guys go for those who radiate fear or lack of confidence. You already carry a gun, now you want to fight? Will that remove the insecurity or will you want something else after?

I could be way off, but it is something to consider.
 
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OldGhost

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DaveB wow I'm a little confused by your reply especially the last part you say my fear if unreasonable and that I carry a gun and want to fight. First no I'm not afraid nor do I walk around in fear. I carry a gun for the same reason you have a spare tire in your car/truck your sure glad you have it if you ever need it.

I also was confused by your saying I want to fight, no just the opposite I even posted a thread here a long time ago about the difference between a fight and defending yourself. I do want to be able to protect myself and as it stands I feel I'm no easy target when unarmed. But I feel I could improve on many things and would like to supplement the training I have. Hence why I question some of the training I have. It's not style specific as at the root most systems are pretty close. Only so many ways to kick or punch our body's are the same and can only move in certain ways.

Going back to the gun part as that really bugs me, I avoid a fight if at all possible I do everything in my power to walk away always. Having a gun on me does not change that I go even more out of my way to avoid confrontation. And to say that I'm afraid because I carry a weapon is way off. And the gas station was just one situation as an example. Martial arts not very effective at 20 feet vs armed bad people. I could list fifty what if situations and it's not paranoid it's reality the world is dangerous to walk around thinking martial arts along will keep you safe in all situations is unrealistic.
 

Jenna

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@OldGhost, can I ask you please why is your weapon inaccessible at that moment when you need it most? Jxxx
 
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OldGhost

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@OldGhost, can I ask you please why is your weapon inaccessible at that moment when you need it most? Jxxx

In the first situation the gas station example? I was just using that as a what if, pumping gas, or other transitional situations leave you open to ambush due to the nature of being distracted temporarily. In that example the would be bad guy got the jump on the victim. The gun was accessible but the bad guy has his weapon out and pointed at you at close range. Just because my weapon was accessible it will take time to draw, aim, fire in that example having a gun was no help. That tool in the tool box was disabled.
 

Jenna

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In the first situation the gas station example? I was just using that as a what if, pumping gas, or other transitional situations leave you open to ambush due to the nature of being distracted temporarily. In that example the would be bad guy got the jump on the victim. The gun was accessible but the bad guy has his weapon out and pointed at you at close range. Just because my weapon was accessible it will take time to draw, aim, fire in that example having a gun was no help. That tool in the tool box was disabled.
hey there :) yes what I mean is, you are carrying the tool in the box for which situation if not this one, or one like it? Like you say, you are in a situation similar to what which you know ahead of time leaves you open to ambush then you would not choose to ready your weapon maybe? Excuse me I am not at all familiar with carry laws. I envy your right to carry and worry it is a right that is being insidiously eroded and but as you say that is not the direction of your question, it is just to me, carrying would go hand in glove with a readiness to use where legally justified, no? Jx
 
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OldGhost

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Well many states have open Carry laws the weapon can be openly carried on your hip or shoulder. Right now in Texas the law states the weapon must be concealed at all times. So you really can't just pump gas with your weapon in your hand in any state as far as I'm aware. But as of Jan 1 2016 Texas will be legal to openly carry on your hip or shoulder. But again it has to be holstered at all times only legal to draw your weapon if used to defend in a life or death situation.

There is a huge debate in open carry circles weather it's better to openly carry a weapon or conceal many good points on both sides of that argument. Over the last few years the laws in TX changed at one time you were in violation of the law if a person was able to see your weapon even by accident you bent over, wind blew your shirt open. But recently the law changed wording you only be in violation if a person saw your weapon if you were showing intent. That's a big hassle your at the mercy of the Leo on site. I wanted TX to pass open carry because I'm a thin guy about 6' 175 it's hard to conceal a full size pistol, it can be done but I have to alter what I wear and even then it prints a little. ( can see the shape of the gun). With open carry I will still conceal but won't care about printing.
 
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Jenna

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Thank you for explaining the legalities. Then are saying it would never be possible for you to have time to draw and use your weapon in a gas-pump type situation where you might have need of it? It is only in a situation where you have plenty of time that you can ready your weapon for deployment? and does that not severely limit its usefulness as an everyday carry?

If weapon disarms are a concern, I might add Systema to the Krav Maga suggestions already made for your own research, wishes, Jxx
 
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OldGhost

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Like all tools martial arts included the gun has a place,sitting down at a Denny's guy walks in starts shooting. He is say 30 feet away not like I can yell “flowing river” preform a flying dragon kick across the restaurant and disable the shooter. Nor am I likely to close that gap with a fork or steak knife in hand and neutralize the threat. I can however find cover draw and neutralize the threat saving lives in the process my own included. Or sitting at a red light, cars behind me and Dart rail train passing in front, I am pinned in, guy walks toward my truck knife in hand. Am I likely to have time to get my seatbelt off, exit my truck and confront the guy with a knife no. Can I ready my gun in the console of my truck yes.

Just examples to show having a gun is not useless no more than training in a fighting system. I do appreciate all the suggestions everyone has posted. Krav Maga seems like a no brainier having only seen a few videos of the system. I would love to go check out one of the 3 schools in the Dallas area. But they are a ways off that ties into how much can I attend class. 5 days a week in a local School in a style I am not interested in would be better than 1 day a week in a school far away? I like the theory of Wing Chung the close in fast traps,block/strikes. I think it would work well with Kenpo. But I also looked at JKD and liked the roots in Wing Chun with what looks like distance creating techs then a quick transition back inside the target.

I after two days of searching the Internet and several local old school technology's “the phone book” I was able to find a very small school close by that I had no idea existed. It's a JKD school with a background in Kali and Arnis two other systems I would love to train in. Now it's a matter of visiting the school and trying a few classes to see if it's a fit and if I can afford to attend.
 

Mark Lynn

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Old Ghost

After reading your posts on this thread, I understand your concern about being vulnerable when the weapon isn't able to be drawn and having something to back it up.

I have been away from training for a long time now and I find my self leaving work and spending way too much time on the couch rotting in front of the TV. I really want to find a system that has real world practicality, I understand this is not 300 BC and people don't walk around with swords and sticks throwing down challenges.

If I might ask a question here are you wanting to get back into the martial arts for exercise reasons?

And that it's going to be hard to test any fighting system for mysticism vs real use on the streets. But also in today's real world the threats people face have changed a lot. Many would be threats have guns or at the least a knife. Not counting the drunk idiot in a club or the loud road rage moron trying to sucker me into a confrontation.

Mysticism vs real use? Are you meaning theory or tactics vs application on the street?

As someone that's not an expert in any way shape or form in any martial arts style. But wanting to weed through the Mysticism and I'm not knocking martial arts in anyway. But every where I look, forums, YouTube, random websites seems all I see any more people bashing all styles as useless. Or I see people say X style is better than Y style or this style is a joke because the instructors take a 1 day class and get licensed.

Mysticism? Are you meaning the spiritual side of things? There are those people who believe any style of martial art per say is useless and that all or most martial arts contain a lot of excess baggage that is unnecessary and that seems to be where you are leading as something you don't want.

It's truly hard right now as a new guy coming back to decide on a style but myself I am torn I know every time I was training I spent a lot of time developing muscle memory. I spent a lot of time doing forms and sets, I worked on basics, foot position, stances. I was pretty decent at the material I had learned up to that point. But I noticed myself and everyone I ever watched spar all the forms, sets, body position, controlling height, depth, all that goes out the window. It's two people using limited basics to try to hit the other person while not getting hit yourself. Seems like the basics help in a street fight but past the basic snap kick, basic punches and some decent blocking skills that seems like the extent of what you would use to protect yourself unless knocked to the ground. Then some basic ground skills would help a lot to help you get back standing.

What you are describing here seems to be sparring and sparring really in a sense goes back to the first paragraph of people squaring off with each other and dueling with sticks and swords. Which doesn't really have much to do with the situations you are descibing where you need your gun.

Many of the so called "advanced" techniques i.e. kicking or the advanced locking or Judo throws are based on two equally (or unequally) skilled combatants facing off with one another. Look at old school Okinawan karate and it is very basic in a sense because it was designed to fight with (as in self defense type situations) not really sparring as we see things today. I'm not putting down Okinawan karate here, I mean basic as in simplistic but very deep in application.

Not I have never been lucky enough to watch very high level people, 5th 6th Dan and even higher people with 15 and more years in a system spar. I have seen them show techs on a willing target showing ideal phase, and what if phase, adding, rearranging,removing parts of multiple strung together techs. Maybe I am missing something I know it's not going to be like on tv one person standing there ground and just totally shutting down an attacker.

Speaking of someone who has seen very high level martial artists go at it over my last 35 years of training, often times it is in the simplicity of movement really where their skill shows. Willing or unwilling, I've sparred my instructor and wasn't able to hit him over X amount of years of training (without getting nailed first), however he beat the crap out of me not with the super fancy jump 360 roundhouse kicks etc. etc. instead it was by knowing me better than I knew myself and beating me to technique.

I've seen GM Remy counter and lock people up by setting them up, by them touching his hand etc. etc. all in stick sparring mode. I've hand him lock me and dropping me to my knees in pain etc. etc.

However me sparring with my instructor has nothing really to do with anything of the situations you described in relation to self defense. Remy locking me showed me how when someone grabbed me I could lock them and what PAIN really felt like.

I really want to learn a system that will work in real world situations, pumping gas guy puts a gun in your face. You can't run that's not an option, my weapon due to Current TX law is concealed and inaccessible while a gun is pointed at my face. The person really seems agitated likely to shoot at any second it's not ideal to try and fight this person off but better to die trying to survive then on your knees begging. I really want to study a system that would give me a better than 50% chance to make it home from an encounter like this. It may sound far fetched but turn on the news happens all the time.

I believe like hoshin says that it isn't the systems responsibility to make you a effective fighter, it is your responsibility. So any system will bring something to the table to help improve you, some better than others.

I believe if you are wanting to study something that will help you in self defense situations I would study first something that involves your gun since you carry it and it trumps everything. I mean if you had the choice of drawing your gun and using it or keeping your gun holstered and facing someone empty handed, would not drawing your gun be your primary concern? (I mean if it would be justified, lawful etc. etc.) Studying Japanese karate, Kung Fu, JKD etc. etc. isn't going to help you there. There are people that teach combat hand gun courses, I'd look into studying those.

The JKD school which teaches the kali can help you learn to deal with weapons as well as over all empty hand skills so that could be a good choice but realize for the situations that you are describing again the arts may or may not be useful.

I would join a school (any school) if I had an interest in studying the martial arts. But realize much of what you will slog through in class will be based on trying to train you for the long haul, for passing down the art, or to help you win in a tournament etc. etc. which is different than what you are describing that you want.

I've trained in the martial arts for 35 years now; I enjoy it, it is a passion of mine. I went to a seminar this past weekend on Filipino boxing and Balintawak. During the presentation I saw things that I could relate to my TKD katas, my arnis forms, stuff I could relate to several different things all of which helped me to see things in the martial arts I hadn't considered before. This is why I enjoy them and study them. It's taken me years to learn this and to see things this way but..... is this stuff needed for self defense NO. The basics maybe but.... my time would be better spent learning combat hand gunning if that is where my interest lied. Like wise going to a BJJ school to learn ground work needed for self defense again I believe is over kill, now going to a BJJ school for MMA, or jujitsu competition is great.

Since you are in Forney and I'm out west of DFW airport I'll make this suggestion to you. Hock Hochheim is in our area and he has several courses that are based or grounded more on the RBSD side of things than say the neighborhood karate, TKD, Kung Fu, schools. Next year he is teaching his knife course I hear (from my student), his courses cover hand, knife, stick, and gun. You might reach out to him and see if one of those might meet your needs. I've trained with Hock, one of my Arnis BBs is currently training with Hock in his PAC program. I believe his programs are down the alley that you seek except for weekly training is more on your own per say. Which is why I asked the question in the first paragraph.

"If I might ask a question here are you wanting to get back into the martial arts for exercise reasons?"

You might look into Hock's stuff to see if his stuff might not work for you.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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OldGhost with what you are looking for I think JKD will definitely fit the bill especially if it is from the Dan Inosanto lineage with a heavy emphasis on Kali and Silat. That would probably be right up your alley. Check it out and let us know what you think.
 

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A bullet proof vest might also be advisable.
 

Bill Mattocks

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...Not I have never been lucky enough to watch very high level people, 5th 6th Dan and even higher people with 15 and more years in a system spar. I have seen them show techs on a willing target showing ideal phase, and what if phase, adding, rearranging,removing parts of multiple strung together techs. Maybe I am missing something I know it's not going to be like on tv one person standing there ground and just totally shutting down an attacker.

Let's cut to the chase. The reason you have seen these high-ranking belts apply advanced techs and yet you find find them unrealistic is because you cannot apply them yourself, and that's not a criticism. I can't apply most of them either. However, I have been training long enough to slowly advance to the point where I can apply some of them, and I have worked closely with the high-ranked technicians who try to teach their amazing skills to me. It's not magic, it works.

The problem is, it takes 30 or 40 years to learn that kind of magic. So, you want to learn that kind of ability? No problem, invest a few decades of your time in earnest training, and it will be yours.

Sorry, there's no magic route to self-defense advanced techs. They can be mastered, they can be applied, but it takes, as they say, 10,000 hours to mastery of anything. Guitar, basketball, karate, etc.

I really want to learn a system that will work in real world situations, pumping gas guy puts a gun in your face. You can't run that's not an option, my weapon due to Current TX law is concealed and inaccessible while a gun is pointed at my face. The person really seems agitated likely to shoot at any second it's not ideal to try and fight this person off but better to die trying to survive then on your knees begging. I really want to study a system that would give me a better than 50% chance to make it home from an encounter like this. It may sound far fetched but turn on the news happens all the time.

Everybody wants to learn those skills. Here's the ugly truth. If someone shoves a gun in your face when you're pumping gasoline and you have no way to escape by running away, martial arts training could help you; but there's still a very high chance you are going to die. There isn't any magic self-defense that can outrun or dodge a bullet. Even if you decide to carry a firearm and become proficient in its use, there's still a good chance you're going to get dead before you can clear and fire your own weapon.

Gun in face = very good chance you are going to die.

Does that mean you should give up? No, of course not. It might mean that assuming the person with the gun in your face wants your wallet or your car keys, a good option might be to GIVE IT TO THEM. But that's a decision you have to make, no one can tell what's right or wrong here. Every situation is different; maybe he'll take your wallet and your keys and shoot you anyway. It happens.

Learn martial arts? You bet. It's a great thing, a lifelong pursuit, good exercise, great fellowship, and yep, it can well and truly save your life.

But it won't make you invincible, and it definitely won't do it in a short period of time. Invest time and effort, you get a result. It might save your life. Someone puts a gun in your face and pulls the trigger, it might not. Get comfortable with that notion.

I mean the above in the spirit of friendly advice, not as an attack on you. Your questions are valid, but they're based on the assumptions of someone who, by your own admission, never got past green belt. It's out there, but the dedication it requires is something not many are willing to invest.
 

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