Helping Children With Weak Spirit

[dancingalone]

So, this church TKD gig is helping me stretch my horizons. I am learning A LOT about the human condition in teaching an entirely different type of student than I have been before now.

Anyone ever had students who perhaps don't like to be challenged and so they manufacture an excuse to quit? I have a kid in the class who seems to use injury as an excuse to bow out of class when he does not understand a new drill or a new technique. He only likes to practice things he does well.

How do you all personally handle this type of student? Let it go on indefinitely? Eventually, I am sure everyone will recognize he is just being overly dramatic, but I would like to help him overcome this 'flight response' of his.

 

[terryl965]

It is an easy solution, all you need to tell them is the tenets tenets tenets and that when they can do a tech while in some pain just try to imagine how well that tech will be when they are 100%. It has always worked for me, jsaut remind them that the journey is long and hard and only a certain % will make it to BB level and you believe they are one of them. It helps them to start believing in themselfs.

 

[Tez3]

Are these children who actually want to be there? I've seen parents push their children into doing actitivies not just martial arts that they don't want to. While things go well the children aren't too unhappy but when it gets difficult they don't want to or can't make the effort. It must be miserable for the kids being made to do something they don't like.

It's hard for children to be labelled as being weak spirited when I suspect there's other reasons they don't want to carry on training, I always try to find out what's behind the surface when children have problems training. A child who only wants to do things well and seems dramatic when things are difficult maybe having to prove something to his parents who may be missing the obvious. A child who does well will be praised by the parents so of course they'll only want to do things that they can do well, the child however may not be praised for trying to do things the best they can or for even just trying so may have to make a fuss to persuade the parents there's a problem. That child may be told off or mocked by the parents if he says he finds it difficult so has to find an injury to get out of it.

Patience is the key to teaching children, that and being able to put yourself in the child's shoes. A bit of judicious 'spying' on parents helps, see if you can overhear how the child is treated when they think you aren't listening or watching, some parents can appear supportrive of their child while instructors are watching but tear in them when they think they aren't.

 

[dancingalone]

Are these children who actually want to be there? I've seen parents push their children into doing actitivies not just martial arts that they don't want to.

Absolutely. The kid enjoys training. He just seems to be discouraged easily and his coping mechanism is to feign an injury.

 

[Miles]

I've had pretty good luck with encouraging kids to push through their "pain" or whatever is holding them back, and then using them as an example at the end of class. Kids like to get recognition and if the other kids see Johnny is being publicly acknowledged for working through an "injury", they will try to do so as well.

 

[Tez3]

Absolutely. The kid enjoys training. He just seems to be discouraged easily and his coping mechanism is to feign an injury.

You'll need to find out why he's so easily discouraged, children shouldn't have a fear of 'failure', that's an adult concept. I'd still look to see what is parents are doing, he may not get encouraged to try, he may be expected to do it well all the time, everytime. I wouldn't label him as weak spirited though, there's clearly something going on that needs to be sorted.

 

[dancingalone]

You'll need to find out why he's so easily discouraged, children shouldn't have a fear of 'failure', that's an adult concept. I'd still look to see what is parents are doing, he may not get encouraged to try, he may be expected to do it well all the time, everytime. I wouldn't label him as weak spirited though, there's clearly something going on that needs to be sorted.

I think children develop a sense of ego very early on. My son didn't want to wear 'baby' clothes as early as age 3. He would refuse to wear one piece pajamas, preferring the two piece look.

Perhaps this kid just doesn't like adversity and he has a low threshold for it. It's no different than my son who doesn't like to practice writing his letters because he's not good at it yet and so he will make sometimes very imaginative excuses to try to get out of it.

 

[bluekey88]

Tez had some good insights. Figuring out the function of a behavior is fundamental in changing the behavior.

Assuming you aren't dealing with a child who just doesn't want to be there (or is otherwise coping with Mommy/Daddy issues)...a simple shaping protocol is what I would use.

Shaping is where you reinforce or reward successive approximations of a behavior. So, instead of saving praise for when the child does an entire technqiue...you praise when he successfully does the first step.

for instance, when I'm teaching a new kick, I'll intially heap praise on a struggling student for just getting the chamber somewhere in the vicintiy of "ok."

Later, as that becomes easy (and easy is what the child wants to do), praise gets pushed back to later steps in the behavior (delivering the kick, proper plant foot position, rechamber, etc.)

The trick is figuring out that 'sweet spot' between the child quitting (feigning injury in this case) and too easy. Keep gradually pushing the envelope with the child by keeping him/her working in the sweet spot and the technique will quickly develop.

Also, look at how you que the important points in a technique...if the child just cant glom on to what you are showing him...you may need to figure out a different set of cues.

For one of my students, I just show him step by step and he tries to follow along. Another child, I have to show the whole kick...and then tell him what part of the foot top put on what target is preferreed.

The first child needs to knwo all the steps. The other child gets too stuck in his head with the steps...using a whole-part-whole approach keeps him from over thinking ever little thing (and he's pretty good about getting the atacking limb from point A to point B).

If it's a matter of motivation...then you just hjave to figure out what reinforcement the child will repsond to (that you can deliver in the context of class)...that's the toughest situatin to face...but once you figure out th emotivator, things tend to quickly fall into place.

Peace,
Erik

 

[dancingalone]

Thanks, Erik, for a rather interesting post. Are there any layman's resources you suggest reading on the topic of using motivation and reinforcement for changing mental or emotional blocks?

 

[Tez3]

I think children develop a sense of ego very early on. My son didn't want to wear 'baby' clothes as early as age 3. He would refuse to wear one piece pajamas, preferring the two piece look.

Perhaps this kid just doesn't like adversity and he has a low threshold for it. It's no different than my son who doesn't like to practice writing his letters because he's not good at it yet and so he will make sometimes very imaginative excuses to try to get out of it.

I'd say that wasn't ego but independance, something that should be encouraged.
Children want to please the adults they love so will of course want only to do the things they are good at to gain the praise of those adults. If they are praised for the trying and the effort they put in rather than praised for the result they will learn that if they try hard they will still be rewarded. The end result is not always the desired object instead the desired result is in the trying of something new and hard.

I agree with Bluekey's very good post. It's a case of knowing the child and treating him as a child not as a small adult. Sometimes something as simple as a sticky badge saying 'I tried hard' or 'Good effort' is enough. I always find something to praise while correcting, even with the adults. Another thing both childen and adults fear is being laughed at if they do something wrong. I jump down so quickly on people who laugh at others mistake I can quite scare myself lol! Fear of making a fool of yourself is something to take into account when teaching, the students fear and your own (it crosses my mind all the time)

My daughter does cheerleading ( I thought it was a bit girly until I saw it, scared me silly as she's the 'flyer', she does do MMA as well though) anyway this afternoon they had a 1st Birthday show with everyone taking part. Much of the children's routines I could see the same small things that I see when teaching children kata but one thing did impress me. One small girl got up to do a routine which she was doing very well until she forget what was coming next and got lost. She burst into tears and the coach comforted her but what the others did, being cheerleaders lol, was break out into a chant, it went 'We are so proud of you, we're so proud of you', you'll know how it went. It gave that little girl a huge boost to know she had done her best and while it hadn't gone according to plan everyone appreciated her efforts and they were proud of her for trying. Now I know we can't start chanting in martial arts lol but fostering an attitude in class like that can be done.

You can't say well done for something that isn't well done, the child will know it's false but a well done for trying, for a good kick or for even knowing they made a mistake and redoing it, is good. Tell them you know it's difficult, that you found it difficult when you were learning it and telling them you know they will try their best often works too.

Be inventive when teaching. I had a lad who had trouble with his turns in kata he could never get the right direction even when told left or right so I gave him one of his socks to hold in his left hand and a very light little weight in the right and shouted heavy hand, light hand instead. It made all the difference as it was a physical thing he could connect to rather than left and right which is a mental thing.

 

[bluekey88]

Thanks, Erik, for a rather interesting post. Are there any layman's resources you suggest reading on the topic of using motivation and reinforcement for changing mental or emotional blocks?

Here's a nice pdf summary for classroom teachers on the use of positive reinforcement.
http://www.usu.edu/teachall/text/behavior/LRBIpdfs/Positive.pdf

and here's a research summary for a model called "positive coaching." I don't know much about it but the article seems to have some relevant information for you.
http://www.positivecoach.org/conpics/con4/pcmm_research.pdf

I would also look at the literature on coaching (other sports...there's not much out there for teaching MA) or at parenting self-help books. These sources should have some good examples of how to use reinforcement and behavior analyses to change behaviors (but in a laymen/parent friendly fashion).

I hope this helps.

Peace,
Erik

 

[ralphmcpherson]

As a kid I was very easily frustrated when learning anything I didnt pick up easily. I was more than happy to take the information onboard and practice my *** off at home by myself and then show my teacher instructor the next time I saw them but I was not always comfortable stumbling through the 'learning' process in front of them. As a young kid I didnt do martial arts so these experiences I mention were more to do with schoolwork or learning the guitar but I suppose they can relate to learning anything. Even now as an adult I like my instructor to run me through a new form and then take it away and practice it alone and come back and have them critique it and then go away and practice what they have picked me up on. I have noticed this with some kids I train with, they learn something new and seem disillusioned by it in class but then when I see them a week later they are happy to do it in front of others because they have practiced it heavily in their own time. I guess some people just like to work on things alsone when they are first learning it.

 

[ATC]

Each case is different but I can tell you that MA will help with this issue. All I can offer is one of my own run ins with this. We had this kid who did the bare minimum for each test and class. Did not want to push and basicly looked like crap, but was happy to just be passed along. Were the "bleep" hits the fan is once you make it to 1st kup and have to prepare for 1st poom or 1st dan testing.

At 2nd kup I knew this kid would not make it. He cheated every drill and found ways to not even do (could not do) most of them. Kicks, forms, and every technique just looked like crap. I use to tell him that soon he would be in my world, and that the effort he was giving would not cut it once it was time to prepare for his 1st poom. I get to prepare all 1st kups for their 1st poom or 1st Dan test, along side the master instructor of course.

Now this preparation class as we call it is no joke. It is 6-8 weeks long and for some it is every day. Day one consist of a 6 mile run in the hills. That run also will include many drills at the end of the run and forms and technique practice. It is the worst thing I have ever done as the test is a snap if you can get pass the class. Basically if you make it past the prep class you will pass your test. Don't make the prep class and that is a failed BB test. So in reality this class is part of the test. Make it through and you will test and pass, don't and you will wait another year and will be labeled as failing the test.

Well this kid heard about the class from past participants, just as all color color belts have, and would just drop his head and shy away from me when I would remind him about it. His dad would just smile and say I keep telling him.

Well when it came time for day one of the class he of course could not make through the first day and cried. Not everyday is running and exercising. Most days we drill the heck out of forms and techniques until perfect. We also do Hansosil until second nature also. But you all should know that doing forms and punching and kicking techniques over and over can become quite tiring.

Remember this kid was weak and had the worst techniques possible due to years of just getting by. So we were on him and on him hard. Each day was painful for him and the instructors, as he had to have someone over him an on him for everything. We even had this kid come in 2 hours before his class everyday and he stayed an extra hour after class everyday. This was for 5 day a week for 8 weeks.

Near the end of week 6 he told his dad he wanted to quit, and that he knew he would not test anyways so why go through all this. His dad told him he could quit but he would have to be the one to come and tell the instructors that he was quitting. His dad told us that after he was told that he said well I will just finish then. For some reason this kid did not want to tell us that he wanted to quit. We would have let him no problem. But he stuck it out.

At the end of the 8 weeks I was really impressed with him as his techniques, strength, and attitude did a complete 180. He actually looked like a 1st Kup student after 8 weeks of military type training.

Did he test and pass. No he did not. But he told us that now he is looking forward to next year and testing and passing. He took a lot of crap from us and in the end he saw a different person.

This was not the first person that went through this same thing. One kid that did test did so after failing in the same way as this kid but came back a year later and pushed himself really hard and passed with flying colors. I even remember his mom thanking us. His 70+ year old grandfather shakes my hand everyday for what we did for his grandson.

There are so many parents at our school that want us to change their kids and ask everyday if we can make them stronger. Not physically but mentally and we just smile and say give it time they will change.

I do not know how old or what belt level the kid is that you are talking about but if he is fairly young and fairly new to TKD just let him have some fun for now, but at some point the rubber will meet the road and he will persevere or quit. You have no control over that. All you can do is give him what he needs. He will do the rest.

 

[Tez3]

Each case is different but I can tell you that MA will help with this issue. All I can offer is one of my own run ins with this. We had this kid who did the bare minimum for each test and class. Did not want to push and basicly looked like crap, but was happy to just be passed along. Were the "bleep" hits the fan is once you make it to 1st kup and have to prepare for 1st poom or 1st dan testing.

At 2nd kup I knew this kid would not make it. He cheated every drill and found ways to not even do (could not do) most of them. Kicks, forms, and every technique just looked like crap. I use to tell him that soon he would be in my world, and that the effort he was giving would not cut it once it was time to prepare for his 1st poom. I get to prepare all 1st kups for their 1st poom or 1st Dan test, along side the master instructor of course.

Now this preparation class as we call it is no joke. It is 6-8 weeks long and for some it is every day. Day one consist of a 6 mile run in the hills. That run also will include many drills at the end of the run and forms and technique practice. It is the worst thing I have ever done as the test is a snap if you can get pass the class. Basically if you make it past the prep class you will pass your test. Don't make the prep class and that is a failed BB test. So in reality this class is part of the test. Make it through and you will test and pass, don't and you will wait another year and will be labeled as failing the test.

Well this kid heard about the class from past participants, just as all color color belts have, and would just drop his head and shy away from me when I would remind him about it. His dad would just smile and say I keep telling him.

Well when it came time for day one of the class he of course could not make through the first day and cried. Not everyday is running and exercising. Most days we drill the heck out of forms and techniques until perfect. We also do Hansosil until second nature also. But you all should know that doing forms and punching and kicking techniques over and over can become quite tiring.

Remember this kid was weak and had the worst techniques possible due to years of just getting by. So we were on him and on him hard. Each day was painful for him and the instructors, as he had to have someone over him an on him for everything. We even had this kid come in 2 hours before his class everyday and he stayed an extra hour after class everyday. This was for 5 day a week for 8 weeks.

Near the end of week 6 he told his dad he wanted to quit, and that he knew he would not test anyways so why go through all this. His dad told him he could quit but he would have to be the one to come and tell the instructors that he was quitting. His dad told us that after he was told that he said well I will just finish then. For some reason this kid did not want to tell us that he wanted to quit. We would have let him no problem. But he stuck it out.

At the end of the 8 weeks I was really impressed with him as his techniques, strength, and attitude did a complete 180. He actually looked like a 1st Kup student after 8 weeks of military type training.

Did he test and pass. No he did not. But he told us that now he is looking forward to next year and testing and passing. He took a lot of crap from us and in the end he saw a different person.

This was not the first person that went through this same thing. One kid that did test did so after failing in the same way as this kid but came back a year later and pushed himself really hard and passed with flying colors. I even remember his mom thanking us. His 70+ year old grandfather shakes my hand everyday for what we did for his grandson.

There are so many parents at our school that want us to change their kids and ask everyday if we can make them stronger. Not physically but mentally and we just smile and say give it time they will change.

I do not know how old or what belt level the kid is that you are talking about but if he is fairly young and fairly new to TKD just let him have some fun for now, but at some point the rubber will meet the road and he will persevere or quit. You have no control over that. All you can do is give him what he needs. He will do the rest.

I'm glad this one worked out well but before taking such drastic action you have to be sure the child is having problems and it's not the parents again pushing them into something they really hate and really don't want to do. You have to be sure too that whatever 'treatment' you decide to do is age appropriate.
Parents can fool you with their comments and come over like nice caring people when in reality they give the child hell at home. To do all this to a child who doesn't want to do martial arts could then prove to be child abuse.

I never forget that our martial arts classes are for recreation, for the enjoyment of martial arts, they aren't an army boot camp and it's not our job to teach the discipline and good behaviour that's the parents job. We'll help enforce it but I don't train children military style. I'd rather turn out happy kids who can defend themselves with confidence than pefect little black belt robots.

 

[StudentCarl]

As a veteran school teacher I thought my TKD was perhaps oversimplifying when he emphasized to the new teenage black belts learning to teach that he says there are "3 Ps" to teaching: patience, persistence, and praise. As I help with the children's classes as an assistant, I watch closely the effects of our method on kids 5 and up. The longer I'm involved, the more I see the value of these ideas.

The patience and persistence aspects are more subtle than praise, but vital. Just like the body adapts and is capable of much, even at green belt, that it couldn't do at white belt, there is transformation of the person as well. Each higher skill, form, and belt level challenges the student more. We know they do not all progress at the same rate, but each has his/her own personal mountain to climb. Students learn to push through what gave them pause before.

Your student benefits just by participating with a group that is focused and goal-oriented. Those traits alone are missing in some families and thus in some children. Being part of your class is beneficial, even if the results are not apparent yet. I encourage you to have faith in your method, praise the moments of perseverence and spirit that you do see, and do all you can to keep this kid in your program. Even if he does not stay with TKD, your are building a foundation that will help him in the future. Life requires discipline and effort for success, so you are helping.

 

[ATC]

I'm glad this one worked out well but before taking such drastic action you have to be sure the child is having problems and it's not the parents again pushing them into something they really hate and really don't want to do. You have to be sure too that whatever 'treatment' you decide to do is age appropriate.
Parents can fool you with their comments and come over like nice caring people when in reality they give the child hell at home. To do all this to a child who doesn't want to do martial arts could then prove to be child abuse.

I never forget that our martial arts classes are for recreation, for the enjoyment of martial arts, they aren't an army boot camp and it's not our job to teach the discipline and good behaviour that's the parents job. We'll help enforce it but I don't train children military style. I'd rather turn out happy kids who can defend themselves with confidence than pefect little black belt robots.

All understood. Like I said we just do what we do. We have standards and principles and they do not change. We teach with the students best interest in mind. If anyone wants to quit we will not stop them but our methods cannot change to fit the one that are not there of their own accord. Even those that are not most times come around and begin to enjoy it.

If you ask most kids they don't want to be in school (the education system) but are being forced to. Most kid don't know what they want to do and if they think they do once they start it they then change their minds and want to do something else.

You cannot just let a child do what he or she wants or you will have candy eating only, game playing all day, not going to school kids. Parents getting involved and make the hard choices for their kids, when the child has no life experience to even understand why and what they are choosing is what is needed for the child.

Like I said many kids once forced to finish or reach a goal set for them do look back and appreciate it. Left up to the child, the child will always choose the easiest path.

These are not our children and in the end the parent has the final say, but as long as you are in our school you will do things are way. Quitting is always an option.

 

[Tez3]

All understood. Like I said we just do what we do. We have standards and principles and they do not change. We teach with the students best interest in mind. If anyone wants to quit we will not stop them but our methods cannot change to fit the one that are not there of their own accord. Even those that are not most times come around and begin to enjoy it.

If you ask most kids they don't want to be in school (the education system) but are being forced to. Most kid don't know what they want to do and if they think they do once they start it they then change their minds and want to do something else.

You cannot just let a child do what he or she wants or you will have candy eating only, game playing all day, not going to school kids. Parents getting involved and make the hard choices for their kids, when the child has no life experience to even understand why and what they are choosing is what is needed for the child.

Like I said many kids once forced to finish or reach a goal set for them do look back and appreciate it. Left up to the child, the child will always choose the easiest path.

These are not our children and in the end the parent has the final say, but as long as you are in our school you will do things are way. Quitting is always an option.

To be honest you sound very militaristic and very Victorian in my opinion. it's a very old fashioned thing to say that a child is so useless an adult has to make all the decisions. You speak as if you dislike children and they are puppies to be moulded by punishments and harsh treatment to be the Stepford children.

Forcing children to do martial arts isn't I believe in the childs best interest, all you will do, despite the outward 'improvements' is teach them that might is right and adults will do with children what they will. If a child can't chose their own hobby or pastime it makes them feel helpless and impotent. It's fine make choices about schools, education,diet, chores etc but why force a hobby or sport on them? If they can't do martial arts what then? they are forced to take it anyway? How do you teach a child to make the right decisions, to be independant, to know right from wrong if you make all decisions for them even the small ones they would be better taking themselves? To me it sounds as if adult egos are at play, the good of the child might be what's said but what good does it do a child if it's miserable? I'd be horrified to be part of making a child unhappy by teaching it martial arts when it doesn't want to be there.

My children are adults, they chose their own sports and hobbies. At 3 my daughter chose horse riding and martial arts, she earns her living from riding horses and is a very good martial artist. My son chose martial arts and stayed with it until he was too ill to carry on, other interests such as reading he has continued, having started when he was little. My children are independant, brave and will never knowingly see a wrong and not try to sort it. I am extremely proud of my two and I would never force a child to endure a sport or hobby they didn't want to. That's all martial arts is you know a sport or a hobby however much people try to make it seem a religion or cult.

 

[ATC]

To be honest you sound very militaristic and very Victorian in my opinion. it's a very old fashioned thing to say that a child is so useless an adult has to make all the decisions. You speak as if you dislike children and they are puppies to be moulded by punishments and harsh treatment to be the Stepford children.

Forcing children to do martial arts isn't I believe in the childs best interest, all you will do, despite the outward 'improvements' is teach them that might is right and adults will do with children what they will. If a child can't chose their own hobby or pastime it makes them feel helpless and impotent. It's fine make choices about schools, education,diet, chores etc but why force a hobby or sport on them? If they can't do martial arts what then? they are forced to take it anyway? How do you teach a child to make the right decisions, to be independant, to know right from wrong if you make all decisions for them even the small ones they would be better taking themselves? To me it sounds as if adult egos are at play, the good of the child might be what's said but what good does it do a child if it's miserable? I'd be horrified to be part of making a child unhappy by teaching it martial arts when it doesn't want to be there.

My children are adults, they chose their own sports and hobbies. At 3 my daughter chose horse riding and martial arts, she earns her living from riding horses and is a very good martial artist. My son chose martial arts and stayed with it until he was too ill to carry on, other interests such as reading he has continued, having started when he was little. My children are independant, brave and will never knowingly see a wrong and not try to sort it. I am extremely proud of my two and I would never force a child to endure a sport or hobby they didn't want to. That's all martial arts is you know a sport or a hobby however much people try to make it seem a religion or cult.

Never said anything close to children being useless. If you think children are adults and can make all the same decision as adults then good for you, I don't. We teach and teach by our standers. Again quitting is always an option. No one forces anyone to do anything. All that other stuff you wrote is irrelevant to me.

 

[Tez3]

Never said anything close to children being useless. If you think children are adults and can make all the same decision as adults then good for you, I don't. We teach and teach by our standers. Again quitting is always an option. No one forces anyone to do anything. All that other stuff you wrote is irrelevant to me.

It's the very fact that I believe children are children that makes me angry that they are treated badly. I don't for one minute believe children are adults so don't put words in my mouth. I said that they should be able to chose their own interests, hobbies and sports. Parents can make the other important decisions but a child needs to be able to explore the activities they want

You did actually say you are forcing children to train in that you won't refuse to teach or even make allowances for those that are being forced to be there. Can you imagine the child who doesn't want to train being stuck between parents who say he/she has to and you who won't make allowances for a child who is miserable training? I will not teach children who are forced to be there by their parents and I will find out whether they are willing or not. I will not contribute to a child's unhappiness.

Of course what I write is irrelevant to you, you are always right. You are the pater familias.

 

[ATC]

It's the very fact that I believe children are children that makes me angry that they are treated badly. I don't for one minute believe children are adults so don't put words in my mouth. I said that they should be able to chose their own interests, hobbies and sports. Parents can make the other important decisions but a child needs to be able to explore the activities they want

You did actually say you are forcing children to train in that you won't refuse to teach or even make allowances for those that are being forced to be there. Can you imagine the child who doesn't want to train being stuck between parents who say he/she has to and you who won't make allowances for a child who is miserable training? I will not teach children who are forced to be there by their parents and I will find out whether they are willing or not. I will not contribute to a child's unhappiness.

Of course what I write is irrelevant to you, you are always right. You are the pater familias.

I suggest you re-read my posts.