Help on Squating Sacrifice.

Wes Idol

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In examining this technique, provided the bear hug is near waist height, allowing for the hip hinging of my torso to fold, this technique presents a great surprise to the attacker.

Ron Chapel, your offer to check the "Kenpoist's" height with your knee is a significant arguement. I have actually done this with partners. I have found some solution is shooting my hips into the attacker's. I won't tell you this is the "answer", but rather a possible counter. None the less, your offer of examination is appreciated.

Concerning some of the other statements made on this string......I try to consider this....

Everytime I post, I imagine countless eyes of young minds are tuned in with recorders. Everything I post will be analyzed and held up to the world. Sometimes this helps me decide how I might represent all of us.

By the way, I'm not perfect, I'm human. I'm also just grateful that Parker did what he did.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com

p.s. Billy, I thought your response was mature......for what ever it is worth, thanks for standing up straight. Your friend, W.
 
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Ragnar

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Billy Lear writes:

If it weren't for exploring the variables and the unexpected in science I don't think we would have many of our modern day convieniences today, just a thought.

While it is true that the exploration of the unknown is vital to the scientific process, that is only part of the picture. Generally speaking, in order to successfully make discoveries there must be a specific background of knowledge. If you took a ten year old that had an uncertain understanding of rudimentary arithmetic, and no real specific knowledge of science, and asked him to invent a new drug or a new form of transportation to replace the automobile or a new form of gene therapy, he obviously would be completely unable to know even where to begin. The geniuses who can reach the requisite insight on their own without massive amounts of formal training, such as the Ed Parker's or the Thomas Edison's, are exceedingly rare as to be almost unique (and they devoted their lives to their respective fields).

Scientists, if they want to discover new laws of the universe, or engineers if they want to invent a new modern day convenience, such the cell phone, need to be trained in school with specific knowledge of advanced mathematics, and scientific training. If prospective scientists as students were given some arithmetic and a bit of algebra and told to explore on their own to discover the rest, including calculus (which took a genius, Newton, to discover), I don't think they would get anywhere.

So, while I agree that exploration is important, I think it is only viable within a context of already established knowledge. In other words, exploration in a vacuum will be relatively fruitless (certainly compared to exploration within a context of specific and actual knowledge).

For years the church told us that the Earth was flat... then one day someone disagreed (saying it was round), and then someone else proved it... Now I'm not saying that the church was uneducated. For many centuries the church was the most educated tier of society. Jeeze many commoners could not even read. But, if it weren't for someone's disagreement, or curiousity then we would still be living in Europe. Blind to innovation, exploration, and modern science.

One could make the argument that Dr. Chapel is the one who is disagreeing and shouting that the Emperror has no clothes. To me it seems that he is saying that people have been doing these kenpo techniques with customization, and exploration as an axiom, but he suggests that perhaps there is a more fruitful way (specific basics/techniques) of pursuing the same end of self-defense.

I disagree with Chapel... I think exploration is good... and I think that it works for everyone's benefit.

From a slightly different angle, I don't recall Dr. Chapel saying that exploration as such is bad, but exploration without a firm background, exploration as an end-in-itself, is what is not going to get you to the same place as a strict curriculum fully ingrained (upon which eventually one can explore).

Regards,

Ragnar
 

Wes Idol

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Ragnar,

You posted...

"So, while I agree that exploration is important, I think it is only viable within a context of already established knowledge."

What a very good point you bring to the table....."context"......in regards to experience. Not to completely take away from the child who stumbles across a deep truth, an experienced eye might travel more deeply over and into the exploration at hand. With that said, what is the context of experience? If we are discussing the kitchen, I suppose we need someone who has really been over the pans and flames. And certainly if we are discussing Ed Parker's American Kenpo, I suppose then we only want to speak with someone who has actually studied with the man.

I would argue that even second hand informed individuals might have something to bring to the table. To their arguement, I've met many who never really trained with Parker who have added some very interesting ideas to the mat.

Respectfully,

WI, HI
UKS
www.uks-kenpo.com
 

Doc

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Originally posted by Ragnar

Billy Lear writes:



From a slightly different angle, I don't recall Dr. Chapel saying that exploration as such is bad, but exploration without a firm background, exploration as an end-in-itself, is what is not going to get you to the same place as a strict curriculum fully ingrained (upon which eventually one can explore).

Regards,

Ragnar

Sir, that is exactly what I said and meant. It seems many take what I say and completely ignore what's actually said, and interject their own thoughts. I never suggested one should not explore, but without a foundation it will not be possible as you stated so well.

A superficial understanding of "motion" is not a foundation to explore significant body mechanics, let alone applications in human anatomy. It is true "motion is infinite" but human anatomy has very significant effective applications and limitations beyond the popular rapid fire general "blunt force trauma" of the popular version of AK.

That is not a bad thing because that is what it is designed to do, to generate rather quick basic self defense skills. But no matter how much you study motion, these methods are superficial in the world of anatomical scientific applications used in other arts, and yes in kenpo not motion based. Parker himself said the study of the ideal, once formulated, should be "fixed" without variation. How else can you build a foundation? (IKKA Green Belt Manual last version). My friend Ed Parker made his commercial Kenpo motion and tailoring based because it's an easy method to teach for those of limited knowledge, and on its level it can work. But to deny the existence of other knowledge and methods in the 35 year old Motion-Kenpo compared to other older methodologies and applications (that Parker studied), is like Pop Warner players denying the exsitence of the NFL.

There is no "self-directed study" bridge between abstract motion and hard science. You must be guided and taught to a significant level before you begin to explore what you already know, not look for something "new." There is nothing "new" only what you know and what you don't know. It's funny because most other arts have been saying this for centuries, but they are not very commercial.

Al Tracy and Ed Parker commercialized Kenpo for the masses, much as Henry Ford found a method to get affordable automobles to the masses. Was the Model T the best car? No, not even close! But it wasn't designed to be. It was designed to get you reliably from A to B. No more, no less. Anytime you take something to a mass commercial market, significant compromises are made. "What is the least we can get by with and still have a viable product?" Once that question is answered a product is produced. But the key is to convince the consumer it is a superior product because they want to believe it. To believe anything else is to suggest they are not as good as they think they are.

It is ridiculous to think you can become a "master" of anything in a strip mall school packed with kids, while you self explore. Yes, the emperor is naked, and no matter how much you tell him, he just doesn't want to hear it. The "belts" he has holding his new clothes on are too important.

Ed Parker said it was about the knowledge. "One does not become great until they realize what they don't know." I will keep exposing the emperor because I promised him I would otherwise, I'd let them run naked. Parker also said, "You can tell the facade is down when they drop the sirs and misters, and just start calling you by your name." He also said, "When they figure it out, it'll be too late."

Thanks Mr. Ragner for checking my 6 and understanding what I really said.
 

Wes Idol

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A very good point about having a foundation of knowledge to lead your exploration. Also having an instructor who can open that path with structural clarity.

The sadness for me lies in how this unproven claim seems to rise up to the road, on this electric highway.........

two systems..........MK for Money and Real K for only a few.


In the spirit of pointing at the naked King,

WI, HI
UKS
http://www.uks-kenpo.com
 

Doc

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Originally posted by Doc



Sir, that is exactly what I said and meant. It seems many take what I say and completely ignore what's actually said, and interject their own thoughts. I never suggested one should not explore, but without a foundation it will not be possible as you stated so well.

A superficial understanding of "motion" is not a foundation to explore significant body mechanics, let alone applications in human anatomy. It is true "motion is infinite" but human anatomy has very significant effective applications and limitations beyond the popular rapid fire general "blunt force trauma" of the popular version of AK.

That is not a bad thing because that is what it is designed to do, to generate rather quick basic self defense skills. But no matter how much you study motion, these methods are superficial in the world of anatomical scientific applications used in other arts, and yes in kenpo not motion based. Parker himself said the study of the ideal, once formulated, should be "fixed" without variation. How else can you build a foundation? (IKKA Green Belt Manual last version). My friend Ed Parker made his commercial Kenpo motion and tailoring based because it's an easy method to teach for those of limited knowledge, and on its level it can work. But to deny the existence of other knowledge and methods in the 35 year old Motion-Kenpo compared to other older methodologies and applications (that Parker studied), is like Pop Warner players denying the exsitence of the NFL.

There is no "self-directed study" bridge between abstract motion and hard science. You must be guided and taught to a significant level before you begin to explore what you already know, not look for something "new." There is nothing "new" only what you know and what you don't know. It's funny because most other arts have been saying this for centuries, but they are not very commercial.

Al Tracy and Ed Parker commercialized Kenpo for the masses, much as Henry Ford found a method to get affordable automobles to the masses. Was the Model T the best car? No, not even close! But it wasn't designed to be. It was designed to get you reliably from A to B. No more, no less. Anytime you take something to a mass commercial market, significant compromises are made. "What is the least we can get by with and still have a viable product?" Once that question is answered a product is produced. But the key is to convince the consumer it is a superior product because they want to believe it. To believe anything else is to suggest they are not as good as they think they are.

It is ridiculous to think you can become a "master" of anything in a strip mall school packed with kids, while you self explore. Yes, the emperor is naked, and no matter how much you tell him, he just doesn't want to hear it. The "belts" he has holding his new clothes on are too important.

Ed Parker said it was about the knowledge. "One does not become great until they realize what they don't know." I will keep exposing the emperor because I promised him I would otherwise, I'd let them run naked. Parker also said, "You can tell the facade is down when they drop the sirs and misters, and just start calling you by your name." He also said, "When they figure it out, it'll be too late."

Thanks Mr. Ragner for checking my 6 and understanding what I really said.

It is clear no matter how many times I say something some would rather insert their own thoughts and charecterize them as mine. It is not nor has it ever been a matter of good and bad, only of good and better. "Common sense" is truly an oxymoron, even in Kenpo.
 
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Ragnar

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Originally posted by Wes Idol

The sadness for me lies in how this unproven claim seems to rise up to the road, on this electric highway.........

two systems..........MK for Money and Real K for only a few.


WI, HI
UKS
http://www.uks-kenpo.com

Mr. Idol,

What would you take as proof of Dr. Chapel's "claim," as you put it? Are you looking for an actual written document or perhaps video confession by SGM Parker wherein he states, "Motion Kenpo is the Kenpo I've sold to commercial studios, while I separately practice and am developing a different, althought certainly related, kind of Kenpo." Or, perhaps, you feel that if a certain number of other instructors claimed something similar then you would accept his claim? I'm just not sure what would satisfy you.

In any cae, I think this raises an interesting epistemological issue, how can we verify claims when we were not first hand witnesses to the original events.

Some things to consider:

Dr. Chapel was associated in various capacities with SGM Parker for an extended period of time. This association may have dealt with such things as video production, the writings on Kenpo (Dr. Chapel was photographed for II), tournament adjudication, etc. These, I presume, are all objectively verifiable facts.

Dr. Chapel was granted a 7th degree ranking, was he not, by SGM Parker? Again, this is verifiable.

As a student of Ed Parker, Dr. Chapel would have, I think, specific interests and needs that he would have pursued with the SGM. This is not unusual. A student may join a school for self-defense, for sport, for cardio-vascular, for self-confidence, and any number of other reasons. A good instructor, if they have the knowledge and inclination, will be able to address the needs and interests of his student. I think it is entirely reasonable to think that Dr. Chapel as a law enforcement officer would have certain interests and needs that might be substantially different from the needs and interests of the typical Kenpo school student (or even teacher).

So to conclude on this point, it's not that Dr. Chapel is just springing up completely out of left field. He had an extensive history with SGM Parker. I think that the above are some of the reasons that indicate why he at least should be considered a reliable authority. However, is that all there is? After all, Kenpo instructors (and, I'd guess, martial art instructors in general) are notorious for telling stories about what SGM said or did. Often, there is no way for a student to verify the story since SGM Parker is no longer with us, and only the instructor was privvy to the event or conversation. I think it is entirely plausible to think such events and conversions did take place between SGM Parker and his students.

There is at least one other source of verification for what Dr. Chapel is saying that can be integrated with his standing as a long time Kenpo Senior. Here are some of the facts, which I think support at least the position that it is possible, if not probable or certain, that what Dr. Chapel has veracity:

1. SGM Parker taught and was interested in law enforcement.
2. SGM Parker has not tied down for lengthy, supervised, day-to-day instruction in the basics and techniques in a particular school past a certain period, say the mid-1960's and certainly after 1970.
3. As an implication of #2, SGM Parker could only provide "ideas" about basics and techniques, therefore, he would have to rely on his instructor's expertise (from other systems) to fill-out the basics. I don't think this is very controversial. After all, was SGM Parker at all of his schools all the time, teaching all of his instructors and students in detail, day in and day out?
4. SGM Parker studied with Chinese Masters who very well could have imparted their knowledge of nerve strikes, slap checks, etc.
5. SGM Parker in video (heck even in the Pink Panther!) would move like Dr. Chapel recommends, powerful strikes with slap checks, stomping to accentuate the power of the strike - and not just a mad flurry of strikes.
6. It is normal for thinkers, writers, philosophers, and certainly martial artists to not include all of their knowledge in their written work. For all we know SGM Parker would have written or created videos on some of this information if he had lived longer.
7. Often teachers will teach students different things depending upon what the student asks them. For instance, if Mr. Idol is teaching a class and a particular student asks him after class about the intricacies of certain knife techniques, I'm sure that student will walk away with a chunk of information that other students that never inquired about knife work would. It just makes sense.

I could go on and on, but I think I have already breached the attention span of most readers here. Sorry for being so long-winded!

Ragnar
 
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rmcrobertson

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Oh, Lord.

I'm at a loss, but I do have one question: why is it always, always, always, always a question of proximity to Mr. Parker? And yes, it's a serious question: what, in the opinion of posters, makes this the central question?
 

Doc

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Once again someone suggested I said a knee could brace or check an opponent on the technique. I did not. Amazing.
 
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Ragnar

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Originally posted by rmcrobertson

Oh, Lord.

I'm at a loss, but I do have one question: why is it always, always, always, always a question of proximity to Mr. Parker? And yes, it's a serious question: what, in the opinion of posters, makes this the central question?

How were my points 1-7 dealing with Dr. Chapel's proximity to Mr. Parker? His proximity to Mr. Parker was dealt with in the section above points 1-7. Also, I think to a certain extent his proximity is relevant because of the nature of the challenge that certain individuals are making.

I'm not sure I understand why you think in this case, Dr. Chapel's proximity to Mr. Parker is not relevant (as a partial explanation). Could you please elaborate?

Another point that I failed to mention in my prior post is the fact that there are in my, albeit, brief experience many students who have a significantly difficult time successfully applying certain Kenpo techniques. These seem almost universally to be the techniques which require escape from grabs or holds. Many of these students are seeking outside training for what they consider as gaps in Kenpo. This seems to me to be an argument that the technique manuals were lesson plan ideas that an instructor would need to flesh out according to specific, sound body mechanics, rather than a full workable explanation. Do you disagree?

Thanks, Ragnar
 
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rmcrobertson

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I'm afraid that several of your points began with the words, "SGM Parker," and--unless I misread, which I doubt--the entire thrust of the post seemed to be to establish a direct connection, a direct transmission, on several levels.

Again, it was a serious question: why is the direct transmission--I'm using a phrase I've repeatedly seen in English translations of texts on traditional martial arts--always the primary issue?

Personally, I'd argue that the push "outside," kenpo--the quotes come from the fact that I don't actually think there is an "outside kenpo," if I'm reading texts like "Infinite Insights," correctly--has a lot more to do with our limitations as students and instructors than it has to do with the system of kenpo.

Thanks.
 
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Rainman

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5. SGM Parker in video (heck even in the Pink Panther!) would move like Dr. Chapel recommends, powerful strikes with slap checks, stomping to accentuate the power of the strike - and not just a mad flurry of strikes.

How does stomping accentuate a strike? That is what the wwf does to fake a strike. Basically what that does is send energy in two different directions and split power.

:asian:
 
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Ragnar

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Originally posted by rmcrobertson

I'm afraid that several of your points began with the words, "SGM Parker," and--unless I misread, which I doubt--the entire thrust of the post seemed to be to establish a direct connection, a direct transmission, on several levels.

Again, it was a serious question: why is the direct transmission--I'm using a phrase I've repeatedly seen in English translations of texts on traditional martial arts--always the primary issue?

Personally, I'd argue that the push "outside," kenpo--the quotes come from the fact that I don't actually think there is an "outside kenpo," if I'm reading texts like "Infinite Insights," correctly--has a lot more to do with our limitations as students and instructors than it has to do with the system of kenpo.

Thanks.

Actually, I don't think I have much to disagree with you here. I don't think that direct transmission is necessarily the primary issue. Personally, I wouldn't focus on it. Honestly, the only reason I brought it up reluctantly was because it seemed that was the issue that Dr. Chapel was being constantly hounded about, i.e., the charge that Dr. Chapel was not told or taught by Mr. Parker the theme that Dr. Chapel emphasizes in his teaching of Kenpo.

I'm afraid I'm not being too clear....ugh!

Ragnar
 
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Frank Trejo

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I don't wanna disrespect anyone, but I've been teaching Ed Parker's Kenpo almost my entire life and if what I am teaching is "Motion Kenpo" then I challenge anyone and everyone to put your *** on the line and stand infront of me with what you think "Real" Kenpo is. Hence, I will put "YOUR" kenpo *** in Kenpo motion. Name the time and place. My E-mail is Kumupalani@aol.com I'll be there!!!

FRANK TREJO
 

Sigung86

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This kind of response, while it is a little more fitting to Dodge City, Kansas, brings to mind an old Martial Arts thought ... Towit:

The first person to resort to violence loses

Interesting that all those high-minded ideals about our growth, and responsibility, our journey, that we bandy about in magazines, videos, and books, seminars and forums boil down to, "Oh Yeah? So's your Mama, and I'm gonna kick your azz"!!!
"He said ... She said ... Well ... This really classes up the joint and brings a lot of respect to legendary names in the Kenpo World ... :rolleyes:

I feel like this is all my fault. I left Kenponet, in spite of everyone else knowing why I left, because no one could get a word in edgewise for all the slamming, slapping, beating, name calling and accusation going on there. I moved over here to settle in and be a part of a community where everyone wasn't trying to protect their turf or their rep! Where I could read, ponder, study, add to or subtract from my many, but not, perhaps, as illustrious years in "The Art" as some of you have had. :mad:

Frankly, y'all need to take this out on the street and out of the forum.

Doc, you have been my friend for several years, and you are going to always have detractors. You've chosen a different path from the others. You may have to simply accept that not everyone is going to see what you do as good, or believe what you tell them because your path and journey have been so different from the others.

Billy, and Wes, I like both of you guys, but consciously stalking or not, one or the other, and often, both of you guys show up and bring friends, and seem to get embroiled in interchanges with Doc. Perhaps you need to consider your own paths a little more before attempting to derail someone else's.

Frank Trejo, I know you by reputation and picture only. However, I am totally surprised, No ... shocked, at this kind of response from one of the leaders of Kenpo. Tell me, and most of the rest of the viewing audience what your response, even if it should become reality, would prove. Tenth Degree? Showing the way to Yellow Belts? Showing the way to Sixth Degree Tracy Black Belts (That would be me)??? Hardly Man. In the words of Timothy Leary ... Get a grip! Please explain to me what this kind of response is going to straighten out, if you would be so kind.

After I left the Kenponet, and left my "absolute final" post, I received a number of emails and phone calls from people applauding my step and indicating that they were doing the same. And at least one of them was from another country, across a big ocean. You guys need to get beyond the ego trips.

I have also received several private e-mails, one from a rather well known Kenpo Community Leader. Folks, and you know who you are, let me tell you here, and now, that those kinds of posts, filled with unsubstantiated accusations and little integrity or veracity, do not tend to sway me. I'm nobody ... Why would you bother to do this sort of thing if you didn't have a personal agenda.

I volunteered to assist Ed Parker on his new and improved Infinite Insight Series, for the benefit of the community. Don't you think it is time we all just kind of settle down and take care of the family, without all the histrionics, hysteria, and hate? Or am I only dreaming about what could not be?

Man ... Frankly, this whole thing leaves me simply feeling tired, drained and a little less hopeful for what we all could be.

Take care,

Dan Farmer
 

Nightingale

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Honestly, I really don't see anything wrong with Mr. Trejo's challenge. It really seems like a fair way to settle this debate. If Dr. Chapel's kenpo is really the "real kenpo" or more effective than the style that Mr. Trejo uses, a match with a well respected kenpo master seems like a good way to build credibility and gain more acceptance from the mainstream kenpo world.

Some of the SL-4 concepts discussed on Dr. Chapel's website have peaked my interest on occasion, and I've been trying to take an objective view of the issue.

I would very much like to see a match that pits mainstream kenpo against SL-4 concepts. I think it would be a good way to settle the issue, and since Trejo is one of the best out there, I don't think anyone would argue the results. If Mr. Trejo wins the match, then Dr. Chapel would need to concede that what he calls "motion kenpo" is very effective, and if Dr. Chapel is victorious, the rest of us would be forced to acknowledge that there may be something to all this SL-4 stuff. It would be interesting to see two men with enough confidence in their respective systems that they're willing to put it all on the line.

It strikes me as a good learning opportunity, and I must say, gentlemen, if this match does occur....

...please sell tickets.
 

satans.barber

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Originally posted by nightingale8472

Honestly, I really don't see anything wrong with Mr. Trejo's challenge. It really seems like a fair way to settle this debate. If Dr. Chapel's kenpo is really the "real kenpo" or more effective than the style that Mr. Trejo uses, a match with a well respected kenpo master seems like a good way to build credibility and gain more acceptance from the mainstream kenpo world.

Hehe, this is turning into a cheesy kung-fu film; if it happened we'd need to film it in China somewhere, dub it badly and then sell it as a modern classic to replace The Perfect Weapon!

Personally, I think it sounds like a good idea!

Ian.
 
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WilliamTLear

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Originally posted by satans.barber



Hehe, this is turning into a cheesy kung-fu film; if it happened we'd need to film it in China somewhere, dub it badly and then sell it as a modern classic to replace The Perfect Weapon!

Personally, I think it sounds like a good idea!

Ian.

With all due respect... :mad:

I think it is important to understand that Trejo is addressing an issue which involves the life time work of many in Kenpo. Call it cheesy if you want, I personally dont think it's funny. It's about time that someone in the ranks addressed this issue in the open.

And if "IT" does get filmed I think it would be more appropriate to have it in LONG BEACH! :cool:
 

Nightingale

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True...

it would make an AWESOME exhibition match at the Internationals.

It would be a great way to settle a kenpo issue once and for all, and there's no more perfect a place than right in front of the kenpo community.

What do you say, Doc? I've heard a lot about SL-4. Seeing it in action would be a very educational experience.

respectfully,

Nightingale
 
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